[Deck] Grim Long - 3 Top8s at SCG Rochester

[Implacable]

Consult isn't right in Long. It IS right in Meandeck Tendrills. Infact, it's perfect in that list, that's why Stephen runs 5 of them (1 Consult, 4 Spoils).

@Nightmare

The only hate that makes burning wish good is Extract. What hate from Stax, Slaver, Gifts, Oath, Goblins, etc... is going to be so bad that you need a Burning Wish for Tendrils. In my experience, Burning Wish was used for protection from extract. It probably doesn't have to be in the deck, and I will most likely remove it, but when it was, it was there for security reasons.

After Game 1, you know what you're playing. I'd rather have cards that actually do thing vs. the above metioned decks. The problem with B. Wish, and it's always been a problem in 90% of the decks it is in, is that unlike every other Tutor, it's a dead card most of the time. It's really only useful as you're about to win, and that rare opportunity when you fetch a Utitlity card (in Long's case, Balance).

The OLNY fear you can have is facing three duresses with Tendrils, Will and Twister in hand. THEN, Burning Wish would come in handy. Otherwise, it seems like a waste of a slot. In a deck that is SOOO tight, you need to maximize your space. Wish does not do that.

Still on the topic of Grim Long's build, what does everyone think of Regrowth. I'm personally not a fan of this card. It seems like it's not particularily useful 90% of the time, although Regrowth for Recall sounds like fun. Is this card a staple, or replacable? Thoughts...

Mmmm...

Regrowth is really, really good when you just flat-out get stymied.  No matter how well you play, there will be games when, during the first two turns, they have three counters, and you draw on turn 3 to find that you have only a couple cards vs. their amazing card advantage.  Regrowth serves to recur your best threats, and it also lets you become more bold when using them.  Normally, I like to be conservative with things like Recall or DT, but with Regrowth in hand and a little bit of mana, the plan changes.  Regrowth and Swarm are why you play green.

[rureddy31]

That's the kind of answer I wanted. The answer I got from a team member was:

"It's awesome with lotus, produces 1 extra mana"

Albeit, one extra mana is fine, as well as the +2 to your storm count, it is just not worth a slot for that. I suppose Regrowth will have to stay in the MD.

[Brianc608]

Well, I don't know about calling it 'suboptimal', but I'm just not sure that there's space in the deck for two copies of a card that doesn't 'do' anything (until you win with it, of course).

It is very true that Tendrils doesn't "do" anything, but it is also being shown that against hate, many people have no problem running an "extra" win condition (aka: Burning Wish).  I have found the second Tendrils to be a better inclusion simply because Burning Wish almost exclusively grabs Tendrils anyways, and other wish targets are relatively weak.

There are at least 50, and perhaps even 55, cards in GrimLong that cannot be changed.  That's just 'how it is'.  Those other five cards must be very powerful. By running Consultation and another Tendrils, you take two of those cards away from you.

I really don't think the Tendrils/Consultation configuration is costing me more than one slot I had before.  Like I said I would gladly do -Imperial Seal +Demonic Consultation... I just think it's better.  The only tradeoff I don't like is -Grim Tutor +Tendrils of Agony.  Losing a tutor sucks, but making the win condition twice as "topdeckable" while going off makes up for the loss a little bit.

Furthermore, by running Consult, you run the considerable risk of removing your most powerful spells.  Mind's Desire; YawgWin; Wheell; 'Twister: All of these are one-ofs that Consult could end up removing.  I think that the decklist is too tight and the costs of removing your cards too great to run Consult.

Typically, while going off, there are SO many options, and bombs are so evenly dispursed that losing a couple of the forementioned cards is normally acceptable.  The only cards I would really worry about losing are Mind's Desire (this one is the biggest loss) and Yawg's Will.  The uncounterable aspect of Mind's Desire is irreplaceable, and the game-ending brokenness of Yawg's Will is tough to see go.  Fortunately, while consulting for a four-of, or three-of, the chance of losing the card you need isn't too high, and there are normally not situations when playing that one specific card is needed to win.

[BreathWeapon]

Regrowth is not a staple in this deck, it isn't even the reason this deck runs Green. In fact, Regrowth is a terrible card that costs tempo, it's a tutor in an off color that that has a limited number of targets. Any one who is playing this card over the 4th Grim Tutor seriously needs to take into consideration which one would actually be more likely to win you the game in any position (ESG isn't an argument, because I can say the same thing about the Rituals). Crop Rotation has way more justification to be in the deck than Regrowth, that card is the equivalent of a Blue Ritual, that is way more broken than anything Regrowth could ever do.

I don't think that adding Burning Wish and Demonic Consultations costs you a single slot in the deck, as the deck has six slots open for preference; Regrowth, Time Walk, Chain of Vapor, Xantid Swarm and two Elvish Spirit Guide.

Personally speaking, I prefer 8 Rituals because of the increased odds of resolving Grim Tutors, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain and their synergy with Duress, when I bother to play the card, and Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal. Honestly, I can't understand why any one plays with Elvish Spirit Guide, because the increased odds of resolving a Draw 7 are worse in comparison to the black cards, they don't have synergy with Duress, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal, don't produce 5 mana with Threshold and can't be replayed off a Yawgmoth's Will. After that, making the switch from Regrowth to Grim Tutor is an easy decision, if you like Time Walk you can keep it but I still say Crop Rotation is better. That more or less leaves Chain of Vapor and Xantid Swarm, and honestly I would much rather have Burning Wish and Demonic Consultation. Burning Wish is protection from Extract and Cranial Extraction, a tutor for Tendrils, a second Yawgmoth's Will and removes all of the same cards that Chain of Vapor does. It is a bit of a trade off, because you lose tempo to wish for an answer, but that answer is both far more powerful and permanent, like Balance. You don't get to generate storm and mana either, but when you consider that you have two additional paths to Tendrils, Demonic Consultation, virtual immunity to Extract and Cranial Extration, it can't be countered with Chalice @ 1 I say it is easily on par with Chain of Vapor. That really leaves the lone Xantid Swarm, and other than being lucky enough to play it on the first turn, I think wasting a tutor and waiting a turn or two for disruption is really bad; give me Demonic Consultation any day.

People really need to stop treating Grim Long like it is an immutable deck, I think a lot of the current choices are clearly wrong and there is plenty of room for preference. Those six cards are easily open to preference, and that isn't even getting into arguments about whether or not Duress should be in the MD in place of Xantid Swarm or Force of Will or wether or not Force of Will should even be in the SB or what you should even be doing with the SB.

[Smmenen]

Regrowth is not a staple in this deck, it isn't even the reason this deck runs Green. In fact, Regrowth is a terrible card that costs tempo, it's a tutor in an off color that that has a limited number of targets. Any one who is playing this card over the 4th Grim Tutor seriously needs to take into consideration which one would actually be more likely to win you the game in any position (ESG isn't an argument, because I can say the same thing about the Rituals). Crop Rotation has way more justification to be in the deck than Regrowth, that card is the equivalent of a Blue Ritual, that is way more broken than anything Regrowth could ever do.

Wow, how could you possibly be wrong?  You must be right and I must be wrong, right?  Clearly. 

It's not like I didn't create the deck or even the modern Long archetype. 

It's one thing to say that Regrowth is not optimal for reasons X, Y, and Z.  But to speak with such hyperbole - to call regrowth "terrible."  Such bluster is laughable. 

[BreathWeapon]

Regrowth is not a staple in this deck, it isn't even the reason this deck runs Green. In fact, Regrowth is a terrible card that costs tempo, it's a tutor in an off color that that has a limited number of targets. Any one who is playing this card over the 4th Grim Tutor seriously needs to take into consideration which one would actually be more likely to win you the game in any position (ESG isn't an argument, because I can say the same thing about the Rituals). Crop Rotation has way more justification to be in the deck than Regrowth, that card is the equivalent of a Blue Ritual, that is way more broken than anything Regrowth could ever do.

Wow, how could you possibly be wrong?  You must be right and I must be wrong, right?  Clearly. 

It's not like I didn't create the deck or even the modern Long archetype. 

It's one thing to say that Regrowth is not optimal for reasons X, Y, and Z.  But to speak with such hyperbole - to call regrowth "terrible."  Such bluster is laughable. 

Because hyperbole is tech, and you should prepare your SB for it.

I'm more than aware of how those statements sound, and they may or may not be my actual opinion on the matter. The problem as a whole is that you have been elevated to an Oscar Tan level of T1 pedagogue, and there needs to be more people who are willing to call you out on your BS, even when it may or may not be BS, then there are in this format.

Besides, saying you invented Long or modern Long is rubbish, you certainly have contributed more than your fair share, but I've played the deck just as long as you have since its days of the Vintage Extreme Forum of yore, and the fact that you got tipped off about Portal and Grim Tutor was a tadd unfair to the rest of us.

[Smmenen]

Besides, saying you invented Long or modern Long is rubbish, you certainly have contributed more than your fair share, but I've played the deck just as long as you have since its days of the Vintage Extreme Forum of yore, and the fact that you got tipped off about Portal and Grim Tutor was a tadd unfair to the rest of us.

That's total bullshit.

I've practically culled the archetype from whole cloth.  Some people have made some tweaks and changes in different directions (JD, Heiner, and Becker), but I took Grim Long to top 4 at SCG Chicago when it became legal - lots of people played weird Grim long variants.   Take a look at the experimental lists coming out of hte NE before I put my list on the map.

I admit that I didn't come up with original long, but I tuned it into the deck that got restricted.   And my list was the one that was mentioned in the article restricting LED and Burning Wish.

As far as modern long goes, show me posts where you even contributed a card to the maindeck.  If not for my work on the archetype and repeated (and I emphasize repeated) success with it, it wouldn't look anything like it does today.  My fair share is the great bulk of it:

Three SCG top 8s with Grim Long by myself and the only person to make top 8 with it before Rochester meant that I carried Grim Long on my back for over 6 months before anyone else could even come close to the same performance.

My first pre- testing take on the deck published when portal was announced ot become legal:

published 4-13-2005
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9394.html

My SCG Chicago afterward describing my choices
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10803.html

You'll notice that he list changed DRMATICALLY.  The fact that I knew that portal was going to be legal had no help on giving me a headstart.  I didn't even start truly workig on the deck until late summer last year.

Those tweaks, those changes are what made grim long what it is today, not to mention that I basically had to start from scratch.

MOST importantly, perhaps you forgot that I also created Death Long.

I remember strolling into the Waterbury Jan 2004 with it to the amazement of all, unfortunately, after a 4-0 start, I lost to Jacob and Rich Shay - both due to my own play mistakes. 

I am primarily responsible not only for original long being what it was, the mainstream and accepted build of death long (that carl winter and others had so much success with), but also modern grim long.  To claim otherwise is simply a fleeting disregard for the truth and disrespect for facts. 

Perhaps you also don't think I created meandeck gifts or meandeck ichord?  Or perhaps I didn't create meandeck tendrils either?

Now, that doesn't make me the end all and be all with Grim Long - the future of it is out of my hands.  What I sparked has taken a life of its own in the new creation of Becker, which may or may not actually be better than Grim Long. 

But to sit there and say that I'm not respnosible for Grim Long as we know it is simplhy not true.  Counterfactually, if I didn't exist, neither would Grim Long - at least not anything even remotely close to what it is today. 

[Brianc608]

Regrowth is not a staple in this deck, it isn't even the reason this deck runs Green. In fact, Regrowth is a terrible card that costs tempo, it's a tutor in an off color that that has a limited number of targets. Any one who is playing this card over the 4th Grim Tutor seriously needs to take into consideration which one would actually be more likely to win you the game in any position (ESG isn't an argument, because I can say the same thing about the Rituals). Crop Rotation has way more justification to be in the deck than Regrowth, that card is the equivalent of a Blue Ritual, that is way more broken than anything Regrowth could ever do.

The only thing that makes regrowth "broken" is its usefullness in the drain matchup.  In a matchup where your bombs get countered left and right, regrowth is an incredible way to recover.  It might not be a staple, but it is certainly more useful than burning wish. 

Crop Rotation, while incredible in goldfishing, can leave you hurting when it is countered. Of course this can be played around, but I think the whole Regrowth vs. Crop Rotation is a metagame call.  Against Stax/Fish I'd go with Crop Rotation.  Against Gifts/Slaver, I'd go with Regrowth.

Personally speaking, I prefer 8 Rituals because of the increased odds of resolving Grim Tutors, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain and their synergy with Duress, when I bother to play the card, and Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal. Honestly, I can't understand why any one plays with Elvish Spirit Guide, because the increased odds of resolving a Draw 7 are worse in comparison to the black cards, they don't have synergy with Duress, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal, don't produce 5 mana with Threshold and can't be replayed off a Yawgmoth's Will.

In theory, what you say makes sense, but after playing with 4 Cabal Rituals, and a Burning Wish for a while, I realized that Cabal Rituals just made too many bad opening hands.  Many times, Cabal Rituals wouldn't become active until turn 2, and other times they were just sub-optimal.  This led me to the decision to run 3x Cabal Ritual 2x Elvish Spirit Guide.  This minimized the number of bad opening hands due to Cabal Ritual's casting cost, and still retained Cabal Ritual's "consultability".  In other situations, ESGs made Cabal Rituals playable.

Burning Wish is protection from Extract and Cranial Extraction, a tutor for Tendrils, a second Yawgmoth's Will and removes all of the same cards that Chain of Vapor does. It is a bit of a trade off, because you lose tempo to wish for an answer, but that answer is both far more powerful and permanent, like Balance. You don't get to generate storm and mana either, but when you consider that you have two additional paths to Tendrils, Demonic Consultation, virtual immunity to Extract and Cranial Extration, it can't be countered with Chalice @ 1 I say it is easily on par with Chain of Vapor.

Again, Burning Wish, in my testing caused too many bad opening hands, especially with the two copies of Tendrils for Consultation.  The double Tendrils already solves the Extract problem, and Cranial Extraction... not run very often.  At all.


Overall, removing cards like Regrowth, Elvish Spirit Guide, Xantid Swarm, and Chain of Vapor improve your game goldfishing, but in actual play, these cards can be vital.  I would sit across from a good control player for a while and reexamine your card choices.

[Imsomniac101]

I really don't think the Tendrils/Consultation configuration is costing me more than one slot I had before.?Like I said I would gladly do -Imperial Seal +Demonic Consultation... I just think it's better.?The only tradeoff I don't like is -Grim Tutor +Tendrils of Agony.?Losing a tutor sucks, but making the win condition twice as "topdeckable" while going off makes up for the loss a little bit.

Furthermore, by running Consult, you run the considerable risk of removing your most powerful spells.?Mind's Desire; YawgWin; Wheell; 'Twister: All of these are one-ofs that Consult could end up removing.?I think that the decklist is too tight and the costs of removing your cards too great to run Consult.

Typically, while going off, there are SO many options, and bombs are so evenly dispursed that losing a couple of the forementioned cards is normally acceptable.?The only cards I would really worry about losing are Mind's Desire (this one is the biggest loss) and Yawg's Will.?The uncounterable aspect of Mind's Desire is irreplaceable, and the game-ending brokenness of Yawg's Will is tough to see go.?Fortunately, while consulting for a four-of, or three-of, the chance of losing the card you need isn't too high, and there are normally not situations when playing that one specific card is needed to win.

Let's list the four-three of's that you can tutor for with consult:

D. Ritual
Brainstorm
City of Brass
Gemstone Mine
Grim Tutor???

That's quite a short list. You cannot grab Lotus or Y.Will which are the two most frequent tutor targets or any other restricted card for that matter.

I am a big fan of D. Consult, but when you can't grab 70-80% of your cards with a tutor, I believe it's safe to say that I.Seal>Consult.

[Brianc608]

The main consult targets are:

4x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Gemstone Mine (sometimes)
4x City of Brass (sometimes)
2x Tendrils (it doesn't matter if 3/4 of the deck is removed looking for it)

and post side:

3x Chain of Vapor
3x Hurkyl's Recall
4x Xantid Swarm

Demonic Consultation does serve a different purpose than Imperial Seal (Imperial would almost NEVER search for any of the mentioned targets), but if the deck is tweaked slightly to support it, it makes SO many more hands playable than if Consulation was Imperial Seal.  Almost every time it is in my hand, I think to myself, "how would this hand play out if Consultation were Imperial", and aside from a couple of times, Consultation has always been a better choice.

[BreathWeapon]

Besides, saying you invented Long or modern Long is rubbish, you certainly have contributed more than your fair share, but I've played the deck just as long as you have since its days of the Vintage Extreme Forum of yore, and the fact that you got tipped off about Portal and Grim Tutor was a tadd unfair to the rest of us.

That's total bullshit.

Look, you can take as much credit as you like for the deck, and that's fine because people are likely to give it to you, but that doesn't change the fact that you didn't invent the original Long and you didn't invent Death Long either, go back to the thread where you actually talked about Death Long a year or two ago and you'll see people were trying Death Wish as soon as Burning Wish was banned. It was the next most logical step in continuing with Long after the errata-axe came down and other people realized this and developed lists. I still think that you claiming Grim Long is unfair, because you admitted to knowing about the legalization of Portal before it was announced and had an advantage of getting your Grim Tutors and Imperial Seals before us as well as having the deck already designed and playtested.

Asking me to divulge a single card contribution I made to Long is a bull shit pre-requisite for justifying my position, because no one has really contributed any indivdual card to the archetype; most of the cards have simply met pre-requisites for being included in combo by being restricted, a mana accelerant, drawing seven cards or just being ridiculous like Bargain, Necro, Desire and Will. I think the only card I've seen included in Long that I didn't think of was Misdirection and Regrowth, and I think Regrowth is terrible. Configuration with Combo is far more important than contribution, otherwise you have no claim to the original Long at all, and this is just a pathos attack to distract from your hissy fit. I didn't take away any credit from Draw 7, MeanDeck Tendrils, MeanDeck Ichorid or any other deck you rightfully have a claim to, but Long is not one of those decks. That is just diversive Lawyer bull shit and shame on you for relying on ad hominem instead of contesting any of my points regarding the deck and providing something of actual content, it just shows an utter lack of maturity.

If you want to say that you have been the one to pilot it to notoriety, I'll give you that much.

Now back to something other people actually give a shit about, has any one actually done the odds of the likelyhood of having the target for Demonic Consultation, one or both win conditions in the first six cards and/or both win conditions removed while consulting and what are those odds? I have been trying to figure out just how risky consulting for a 4x and 1x is. The card can definately cost you the game, but if the odds on consulting are reasonable it is definately worth inclusion and if you have a Tendrils or Wish in hand or you are consulting for Tendrils the drawback is irrelevant.

@Brainc608

To clear  a few of those points up, I wasn't using 2xTendrils and Wish, I was using 1xTendrils and Wish as 2xTendrils.

I don't think that hands where you have a Cabal Ritual and can't play it on turn one are hands I would keep even if Cabal Ritual was an Elvish Spirit Guide, and I don't think I've ever had hands where having a Cabal Ritual, or even Dark Ritual, was "sub-optimal." We'd probably have to go over specifics here, because it is really hard to argue the point just on theory; I've played with 8 Rituals in Long and 8 Rituals in Litz and Pitch Long and never really had those problems come up unless it was a hand with 2 Cabal Ritual, 1 Land and no Vampiric, Imperial for Black Lotus or Brainstorm. Just curious, did you ever try baiting counters with your Cabal Rituals when you see your opponent mulligan for Force of Will?

I can understand being hesitant about Crop Rotation, the card fucked me more times than I care to recall in MD Ichorid; you just have to realize you are playing combo and shit happens. Besides, being able to Crop Rotation in response to a Wasteland is a really awesome play that will make up for Force of Will in the early game and in the late game it's no different than getting a Dark Ritual countered a lot of the time, and sometimes being able to Yawgmoth's Will for the land back is amazing synergy.

[hiryu]

Now back to something other people actually give a shit about, has any one actually done the odds of the likelyhood of having the target for Demonic Consultation, one or both win conditions, and/or both win conditions removed while consulting and what are those odds?

Hmm, I wrote an article on that very topic in 2001 when it was highly relevant in Extended.  Here's the odds of being decked by your own consult:



I discuss the odds of losing your win conditions in the article, though I don't think I made a table for it.  You can estimate the odds from this graph:

[BreathWeapon]

Thanks for those awesome graphs, you just saved me a lot of tiime.

Those odds look reasonable for non-restricted cards, as we all knew, and the percentage of removing both win conditions, added to the odds of one win condition being in the first 15, are acceptable. Take into consideration that if Tendrils is the actual target then your probability dramatically increases, and I'd definately say Burning Wish and Demonic Consultation were better than I thought.

[Smmenen]

Besides, saying you invented Long or modern Long is rubbish, you certainly have contributed more than your fair share, but I've played the deck just as long as you have since its days of the Vintage Extreme Forum of yore, and the fact that you got tipped off about Portal and Grim Tutor was a tadd unfair to the rest of us.

That's total bullshit.

Look, you can take as much credit as you like for the deck, and that's fine because people are likely to give it to you, but that doesn't change the fact that you didn't invent the original Long and you didn't invent Death Long either, go back to the thread where you actually talked about Death Long a year or two ago and you'll see people were trying Death Wish as soon as Burning Wish was banned. It was the next most logical step in continuing with Long after the errata-axe came down and other people realized this and developed lists. I still think that you claiming Grim Long is unfair, because you admitted to knowing about the legalization of Portal before it was announced and had an advantage of getting your Grim Tutors and Imperial Seals before us as well as having the deck already designed and playtested.

Asking me to divulge a single card contribution I made to Long is a bull shit pre-requisite for justifying my position, because no one has really contributed any indivdual card to the archetype; most of the cards have simply met pre-requisites for being included in combo by being restricted, a mana accelerant, drawing seven cards or just being ridiculous like Bargain, Necro, Desire and Will. I think the only card I've seen included in Long that I didn't think of was Misdirection and Regrowth, and I think Regrowth is terrible. Configuration with Combo is far more important than contribution, otherwise you have no claim to the original Long at all, and this is just a pathos attack to distract from your hissy fit. I didn't take away any credit from Draw 7, MeanDeck Tendrils, MeanDeck Ichorid or any other deck you rightfully have a claim to, but Long is not one of those decks.

That is straight up WRONG.

I was the ONLY PERSON TO MAKE TOP 8 with Grim long for EIGHT MONTHS.

Before my list became pervasive, there were LOTS of Grim Long lists miilling about.  Team Reflections list used Oath and Rector.  Other people tried some Grim Long variants that looked NOTHING like my list.

It SEEMS in retrospect that the deck built itself - but that simply the intelligence behind the list I constructed.  IT SHOULD seem sensical in retrospect.

But after I broke the deck out - MY LIST - people were out in the thread saying that it was a fluke, or that it was my skill, etc.

UNTIL other people made top 8 with MY LIST, people were saying that it was just me playing Grim Long that made it good.

Think about this:

EVERY SINGLE Person to make top 8 with Grim Long has used my list (or at least 1 card within it).  Think about that for a second.

To NOT acknowledge that the VAST bulk of the work on Grim Long has been MY OWN is utter nonsense.  The weight of facts are completely against you.
Why do you think that everyone starts with MY lists before making changes. 

To say that my card choices aren't right doesn't explain why all grim long variants that have done well have been within 1 card maindeck of MY list. 

You have absoultely no conception of the development of the deck.  On the meandeck forums I spent weeks testing and tuning various permutations.  With a single pen stroke you completely dismiss the hundreds of hours of testing and work and sweat I put into the deck and that is why I performed with it while others did not.

FOR EIGHT MONTHS I was the only person to make top 8 at a major american event with Grim Long.  Fluke?  No, because I designed it. 

If I had been a complete egoist and named it Smmenen Combo like I could have back in October, the name probably would have taken.   You would then have no ground to stand on. 

[AJFirst]

Ignore'em Stephen, we all know what you've done for the archetype and if they choose not to recognize it then that's their perrogative. You're not going to be able to convince him that this deck is truly your child no matter how much hard evidence you have.

As for Regrowth, it's insane. Run it.

It give you a chance to just run your bombs out there and get them back after a counter. It's like a Duress that's insane with Time Walk and Draw7s. Just my opinion though, I'm no Long player.
-AJ

[yespuhyren]

I agree, just ignore breathweapon.  I haven't seen many if any logical and senseful posts from him.  I have nothing against him, just to put that out there.  I just plainly believe he doesn't know what he is talking about most of the time though.

But on a constructive note, I think Power Artifact being a Sorcery makes Burning Wish an automatic inclusion considering it gives you 3 more copies and a kill condition all in one.

I don't want to undermine the effort put in to this article, but I think the "evolution" you claim is in fact just the opposite.

Disruption

Relying on Jester's Cap and Chalice of the Void against Combo is as good as conceeding the match up. First, Jester's Cap takes one turn to play and one turn to activate. Your opponent has one turn to combo out on you with out any obstacles, and if you lossed the coin flip two turns. You are going to lose the war of percentages against Combo if you are relying on Jester's Cap to win the match. Modern Combo decks like Grim and IT are being designed to play around Chalice@0 or Chalice@1, if you lossed the coin flip you have to set Chalice@1 which eliminates Goblin Welder from your arsenal. Sure, Tormod's Crypt is a considerable deterrent to either Control or Combo, but it falls prey to Needle or Bounce very easily, so the card is more of a virtual Time Walk than it is an actual disruption or lock piece.

Manabase

I'm going to look the other way and pretend that 2 Wasteland is a typo, but the Maze of Ith MD need to be addressed immediately. Why would you use a card that costs a land drop, can be Wasted and isn't a possible win condition when you could use Duplicant? Maze of Ith effectively requires a Crucible to stay on the board against Oath, can be Pithing Needled (if Needle is MD) and doesn't stop a second attacker, when you could either hardcast or weld in a Duplicant and win? Where is Mana Crypt? Put it back in.

Granite Shard

What is this doing in the MD? If Crucible->Barbarian Ring isn't doing its job you have much bigger issues to address. Pithing Needle is already insane against you, do you really need to give the opponent more targets for it? Do you really need another card that is blanketed by Null Rod? Where is this 3 colorless mana comming from?

Trinisphere

Where is it?

UbaStax is not 5c Stax, it is not a deck that is designed with the metagame in mind, it is a deck that exists on the basis of synergy and redundancy. I really feel you've taken this deck out to the back of the wood shed and shot it.

I'm going to go start an article for SCG now on the subject.

These are the two times he's posted on my threads, clearly just not understanding the concept.  Ignore him when he does that.

[BreathWeapon]

Besides, saying you invented Long or modern Long is rubbish, you certainly have contributed more than your fair share, but I've played the deck just as long as you have since its days of the Vintage Extreme Forum of yore, and the fact that you got tipped off about Portal and Grim Tutor was a tadd unfair to the rest of us.

That's total bullshit.

Look, you can take as much credit as you like for the deck, and that's fine because people are likely to give it to you, but that doesn't change the fact that you didn't invent the original Long and you didn't invent Death Long either, go back to the thread where you actually talked about Death Long a year or two ago and you'll see people were trying Death Wish as soon as Burning Wish was banned. It was the next most logical step in continuing with Long after the errata-axe came down and other people realized this and developed lists. I still think that you claiming Grim Long is unfair, because you admitted to knowing about the legalization of Portal before it was announced and had an advantage of getting your Grim Tutors and Imperial Seals before us as well as having the deck already designed and playtested.

Asking me to divulge a single card contribution I made to Long is a bull shit pre-requisite for justifying my position, because no one has really contributed any indivdual card to the archetype; most of the cards have simply met pre-requisites for being included in combo by being restricted, a mana accelerant, drawing seven cards or just being ridiculous like Bargain, Necro, Desire and Will. I think the only card I've seen included in Long that I didn't think of was Misdirection and Regrowth, and I think Regrowth is terrible. Configuration with Combo is far more important than contribution, otherwise you have no claim to the original Long at all, and this is just a pathos attack to distract from your hissy fit. I didn't take away any credit from Draw 7, MeanDeck Tendrils, MeanDeck Ichorid or any other deck you rightfully have a claim to, but Long is not one of those decks.

That is straight up WRONG.

I was the ONLY PERSON TO MAKE TOP 8 with Grim long for EIGHT MONTHS.

Before my list became pervasive, there were LOTS of Grim Long lists miilling about.  Team Reflections list used Oath and Rector.  Other people tried some Grim Long variants that looked NOTHING like my list.

It SEEMS in retrospect that the deck built itself - but that simply the intelligence behind the list I constructed.  IT SHOULD seem sensical in retrospect.

But after I broke the deck out - MY LIST - people were out in the thread saying that it was a fluke, or that it was my skill, etc.

UNTIL other people made top 8 with MY LIST, people were saying that it was just me playing Grim Long that made it good.

Think about this:

EVERY SINGLE Person to make top 8 with Grim Long has used my list (or at least 1 card within it).  Think about that for a second.

To NOT acknowledge that the VAST bulk of the work on Grim Long has been MY OWN is utter nonsense.  The weight of facts are completely against you.
Why do you think that everyone starts with MY lists before making changes. 

To say that my card choices aren't right doesn't explain why all grim long variants that have done well have been within 1 card maindeck of MY list. 

You have absoultely no conception of the development of the deck.  On the meandeck forums I spent weeks testing and tuning various permutations.  With a single pen stroke you completely dismiss the hundreds of hours of testing and work and sweat I put into the deck and that is why I performed with it while others did not.

FOR EIGHT MONTHS I was the only person to make top 8 at a major american event with Grim Long.  Fluke?  No, because I designed it. 

If I had been a complete egoist and named it Smmenen Combo like I could have back in October, the name probably would have taken.   You would then have no ground to stand on. 

Time out, at what point people were using Oath and Rector in Long I have no idea, but the transition from Burning Long to Death Long was -3 Burning Wish, +3 Death Wish, -3 LED, +3 Cabal Rituals and the Chromatic Spheres beame more useful accelerants or supporting cards like Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Time Walk or the 4th Death Wish for any one that ran it. This isn't a judgement made in hindsight or retrospect, because I was one of the only people on TMD that still took an interest in Long and both of us were posting in that thread simultaneously if you want to go dig it up.

Like I said, I never questioned the fact that your effort in the tournament scene was responsible for popularizing it, I just think it is wrong to take full credit for the design of the deck. This is really just a matter of degree, and if you are going to take it this seriously I'm just going to say that I still respect you for your contributions to Vintage and just leave it at that.

@yespuhyren

Way to troll, first I made a mistake by thinking that Power Artifact was one of the cards from the original set that violated card memory with an EOT effect with out looking it up, which I immediately apologized for in that thread; that sort of shit happens when you've played Magic since Beta. Second, I still stand by all of the points in your Evolution of UbaStax thread, and not only that but I think the complete failure of the deck over the last few months at major events show how much of a fluke the deck was and why it isn't an Evolution of UbaStax or anything of the sort.

Do you seriously want me to go dig up that thread on Auratog to show how much you don't know about Legacy and have people laugh at you for horrible suggestions?

[AJFirst]

moving away from all of the bitching going on here, let's take a sample hand. I'm interested in what you guys would do here. On the play versus unknown oponent round 1 and all that.

Gemstone Mine
Underground Sea
Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Mana Vault
Time Walk
Cabal Ritual

Do you keep? If so, how does your line of play begin (and plan on continuing assuming the oponent mulliganed to zero and draws 4 darksteel collosus on the first four turns. I'll throw in some hate after I get a few straight answers (feel free to keep talking about the deck though, this is just from my own curiosity as to what you guys would do and to stop all the arguing in here since it's going nowhere)
-AJ

[Smmenen]

moving away from all of the bitching going on here, let's take a sample hand. I'm interested in what you guys would do here. On the play versus unknown oponent round 1 and all that.

Gemstone Mine
Underground Sea
Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Mana Vault
Time Walk
Cabal Ritual

Do you keep? If so, how does your line of play begin (and plan on continuing assuming the oponent mulliganed to zero and draws 4 darksteel collosus on the first four turns. I'll throw in some hate after I get a few straight answers (feel free to keep talking about the deck though, this is just from my own curiosity as to what you guys would do and to stop all the arguing in here since it's going nowhere)
-AJ

I'd definately keep that hand.

My turn one play would probably be Sea, and not Gemstone Mine. 

If your plan is just to goldfish asap, then I'd Seal for Bargain, turn two Time Walk, upkeep, vamp for Lotus and play bargain and win.

But in real life, I'd Seal for Lotus, see what happens on their turn, then untap and Time Walk.


BTW, right now I think that Pitch Long may be the better deck.  Grim Long is slightly more aggressive, but Pitch Long solidifies the harder matchups: Stax and Combo mirrors without giving up too much in the control match.  In addition, you gain the Fetchland Brainstorm combo.  Brainstorm, Fetch, Brainstorm is hotness. 

[zulander]

Could you possibly post about the oath match up? I'd like to know other peoples opinions on the oath match up in general. i.e what cards they hate to see played against them and the board strategies.

[Smmenen]

Well, oath is not really the card you are concerned about.

The oath matchup looks like this:

2-3 Null Rods
3-4 Chalices
3-4 Mana Leaks
X UU counterspells/drains
4 FoW

It's really quite perfunctory.  Your duresses can nab the key mana denail components and your spell threats will fight through their counterwall.  The Oath player lacks a solid draw engine (they may have 3 Thirsts) and will rely on their early counter/mana denial wall to slow you so that their kill can finish the job.  The problem is that actual oathing is slow and problematic.  They could have a creature in hand, and your disruption can be quite disruptive (i.e draw7s).  Tutor for mana and or bonce when you need it.  Ignore the Oaths.  I.e. if you are Duresses, try not to take the Oaths.

BTW, you all caught what I said a few days ago here right?  Pitch Long is a better long deck.  And aside from difficulties in properly using the mana base, its also a simpler deck to play.  You don't have to hammer away - you just win.

[Liam-K]

I'll chime in on Steve's behalf here... Deathlong was my first "modern" vintage deck (I had been out of the loop since people were running drains in shop slaver).  When GrimLong was going to be legalized I, like everyone else, tried a direct conversion of deathlong to grimlong.  It was fucking terrible.  I ended up spending some serious time with Meandeck Tendrils and dabble in a few other storm decks in an effort to get a feel for how to make grim tutor work.  I failed.  I seem to recall another team's best effort involving trinket mage and culling of the weak.  Storm players recognize that grim tutor based decks are EXACTLY that and needed to be tuned from the ground up.  Steve made this one.  IT is really the only other grim tutor deck you can call both completely different and successful.  Playing PitchLong feels like a metagame choice rather than a deck choice to me.

Anyway, seriously.  Time walk.  I challenge anyone still running this card to record it's performance for them.
2 points: saw it and it was part of the best play immediately apparent
1 point: saw it and it eventually got put to some use
-2 points: saw it as part of a critical play that failed  (ie desperation brainstorm, draw7 fizzle) (even if you go on to win or do something productive, if the play turns out subpar and time walk was there when you wanted something useful)
Average it out.

[Implacable]

I'll chime in on Steve's behalf here... Deathlong was my first "modern" vintage deck (I had been out of the loop since people were running drains in shop slaver).  When GrimLong was going to be legalized I, like everyone else, tried a direct conversion of deathlong to grimlong.  It was fucking terrible.  I ended up spending some serious time with Meandeck Tendrils and dabble in a few other storm decks in an effort to get a feel for how to make grim tutor work.  I failed.  I seem to recall another team's best effort involving trinket mage and culling of the weak.  Storm players recognize that grim tutor based decks are EXACTLY that and needed to be tuned from the ground up.  Steve made this one.  IT is really the only other grim tutor deck you can call both completely different and successful.  Playing PitchLong feels like a metagame choice rather than a deck choice to me.

Anyway, seriously.  Time walk.  I challenge anyone still running this card to record it's performance for them.
2 points: saw it and it was part of the best play immediately apparent
1 point: saw it and it eventually got put to some use
-2 points: saw it as part of a critical play that failed  (ie desperation brainstorm, draw7 fizzle) (even if you go on to win or do something productive, if the play turns out subpar and time walk was there when you wanted something useful)
Average it out.

Although I absolutely agree that Steve is basically the sole founder of modern GrimLong, I do think that Pitchlong is a very, very different deck.  I mean, if you playtest it for a while, you understand that the way in which it plays out is radically different.  One of the most important distinctions between the two decks is actually the lack of Duress, which fundamentally changes your entirely strategy.  As a GrimLong player, I generally go for the Turn 1 Duress if I can.  In PitchLong, you have to note that, instead of having to use Turn 1 for your disruption, you can use it for development (disregarding the brainless Turn 1 wins that both decks can generate).  Because I just changed from GrimLong to PitchLong in order to test it, I can personally say that the difference in raw amounts of card changes between the two decks is very large as well.  A deck that wins through Draw7's, Forces, and mana development/=/a deck that wins through playing stupidly broken cards.

[Liam-K]

PitchLong feels the same to me in that there are mainly the same i-win plays.  The disruption element is obviously different (that's the point) and playing without duress definitely makes you feel blind, but the fundamental question, how do I make this hand win, gets answered in pretty much exactly the same way behind both decks.  If you're an experienced grimlong player, your skill will translate directly to the other deck.  Do they have slightly different strengths and weaknesses?  Yes, because they are tuned differently.  Scroll gifts with a billion misdirections has different strengths and weaknesses compared to scroll gifts with a suite of scrollable answers, they're still both scroll gifts.

[Implacable]

PitchLong feels the same to me in that there are mainly the same i-win plays.  The disruption element is obviously different (that's the point) and playing without duress definitely makes you feel blind, but the fundamental question, how do I make this hand win, gets answered in pretty much exactly the same way behind both decks.  If you're an experienced grimlong player, your skill will translate directly to the other deck.  Do they have slightly different strengths and weaknesses?  Yes, because they are tuned differently.  Scroll gifts with a billion misdirections has different strengths and weaknesses compared to scroll gifts with a suite of scrollable answers, they're still both scroll gifts.

You'll notice how I said above that the biggest difference between the two decks is actually Turn 1.  That difference, in my view, makes playing the two decks very different.  Developing vs. disrupting is a directly contradictory relationship; therefore, one cannot say that the two decks play similarly.  Even the 'I-win' plays differ a good deal, because the playing of only two colors by PitchLong makes the lines of play more linear (i.e., you're more likely to play spells consecutively than have one line of attack fail and then proceeding with a different one).

[Liam-K]

Duress, go is far from an automatic play in a non-nutz0rs hand with grim long though.  You act like you make that play most of your games, which I question both the truth of and the correctness of.

[Smmenen]

I agree that Pitch Long plays quite differently than Grim Long - it is probably closer to TPS in style.  On the other hand, without Grim Long, PItch Long wouldn't exist - the framework for building it began with Grim Long.  I consider Pitch Long a significant innovation on the deck that required a great deal of understanding and know how. 

That said, let's step beyond the debates over design please.  If anyone has any more strategy questions, I'll try to answer them. 

[Implacable]

Duress, go is far from an automatic play in a non-nutz0rs hand with grim long though.  You act like you make that play most of your games, which I question both the truth of and the correctness of.

Perhaps I was overstating slightly, but I think that you underestimate how influential Duress is in GrimLong.  Playing without it is like being a blind man with a sawed-off shotgun.  Most of the good players that I have seen with Long will mulligan aggressively away from any hand that's less than perfect if it does not have Duress/Swarm.  The beauty of PitchLong is that you don't have to worry about that; You run 7 Force of Will, so you can do a good job of deal with any threat to your going off without compromising tempo.

[Liam-K]

I go off through FoW without disruption all the time.  Don't overextend.

[Smmenen]

Duress, go is far from an automatic play in a non-nutz0rs hand with grim long though.  You act like you make that play most of your games, which I question both the truth of and the correctness of.

Perhaps I was overstating slightly, but I think that you underestimate how influential Duress is in GrimLong.  Playing without it is like being a blind man with a sawed-off shotgun.  Most of the good players that I have seen with Long will mulligan aggressively away from any hand that's less than perfect if it does not have Duress/Swarm.  The beauty of PitchLong is that you don't have to worry about that; You run 7 Force of Will, so you can do a good job of deal with any threat to your going off without compromising tempo.

That doesn't sound like how i Play Grim Long at all.  You have to play it like a hammar and just continue a relentless assault of bombs.