UW FISH: Teh Primer!

[Nastaboi]

I've tried Spell Snare in my UWb Null Rod Fish, but opted for Duress instead. The thing is, Spell Snare cannot be used to protect your 2-drop on turn 2, when Duress (played on the first turn) and Daze can. I would definately have a second thought when I decide to go UW again, because my meta is all Drains and Fish. Oh, and it counters Oath, too.

I used to run Echoing Truth in my Fish lists two years ago, but back then I was't playing white. If I wanted to up my blue count, I'd look at Azorius Guildmage. It's pretty strong in my meta.

[CwaM]

The beauty of UW is it can absorb lots of wastes/strip effects... everything in the deck costs 2 or less.

During the few mirror matches I played, between stifle and waste, it wasn't always easy to get UWW on the board. I'll try Flagstones.

About daze, yes, it might be good if your opponent just don't play around. It can be really good but you still lose tempo by replaying your land, that's why I don't like it.
Why do I play onedaze so far? Just to show it to my opponent, I don't want to draw it, I just want my opponent playing around

All I can say is we live on different parts of the globe, so maybe not running them will work out for you.  I noticed the fish that came in second at the tourney you played in ran stormscape apprentices over each of this.  It looks like that was a good call for him

Do not confuse this tourney (spanish one) with the one I played (Side Event during Worlds in Paris :p )
Stormscape apprentice is a nice oath call tho, and not bad in the mirror, but atm I'm more convinced about Icatian javelineers because of their utility.
But for sure, lions missed me in few games where I would have prefered a 2/1 beater instead of a 1/1, but I prefer flexibility.

Seal is for more than just stax.  It's pretty much your way to beat oath and can randomly be useful in other matchups.  I find myself bringing them in against other fish more and more, since you're pretty much ALWAYS up against a jitte or threads post board these days in the mirror.  My recent change to Old man is reflected in the greatly increased popularity of bomberman.  I didn't notice alot of bomberman in your Spain tourney, and did spot a good amount of fish... so threads is probably going to be better for you.  For me it comes down to thread or oldman, and although I'll probably never permanently go with one over the other, both have UU in the casting cost and it hasn't been a major problem for me yet.

I'm still testing few cards in the board: Seal of Cleansing, Threads of disloyalty, Energy flux...
But I think that with a more solid mana, I should be able to drop Energy flux against stax. Seal of cleansing is indeed, against all and I found myself boarding 1 or 2 of them in mirror, to break opponent's jitte. About ToD, I really disliked it, because in the mirror, you want to have WW (when you run True Believer and Samourain in the board), and it's hard to get WW and UU.

Samurai of the pale curtain in your board doesn't seem very effective.  I'm guessing you board it in for combo... and quite frankly nothing shines better against combo in the sideboard than Orim's Chant.

Against Combo, I just side in one more null rod for a jotun grunt, True Believer is already nice against combo, it gives tempo, they have to find a solution for it.
About "lande venteue", I did copy/paste from our french forum, it's a "Windswept Heath" :p


About Crucible, I find it terrible

[TheDeadMan]

I hate to hijack the thread, but in the face of many decks running a single near unstoppable win condition ie: tendrils, empty the warrens, dsc. Has the need for an extract effect been increased? As a U/r fish player I have found rootwater theif to be a great asset. Would something like this have a place in U/w fish over say the traditional children/true believer?

[CwaM]

True believer also shuts down intuition, duress, gifts ungiven etc... no way to replace this with extract

[Nastaboi]

And Orim's Chant does everything you want, and better. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[TheDeadMan]

The afore mentioned cards tend to buy time, where as what I am proposing flat out wins as they are left helpless.  It may just be me but I feel the more we try to tinker with U/w fish the more it becomes an aggro deck with some defense than a utility based aggro control deck.

[Xiphoid]

Yeah, I think TheDeadMan is right. We shouldn't try to make Fish "cute" in a manner of speaking. I've been playing a lot with Feinstein's deck from Day 2 of the last SCG and it's a very very solid deck. I'll be posting the results of my matches hopefully later on today and some thoughts.

As for Rootwater Thief, I think it's not necessary and would be bad for the deck. Not only is it a 2-drop (competes with Meddling Mage and Kataki) but in order to use it's effect, it's a heavy mana committment which I don't think Fish can make. We could always test Extract in the board but how many matchups would that really be useful in?

Happy holidays everyone! 

[policehq]

Samurai of the pale curtain in your board doesn't seem very effective.  I'm guessing you board it in for combo... and quite frankly nothing shines better against combo in the sideboard than Orim's Chant.

I think this card should be kept in mind. As an Ichorid player, no card scares me more than this guy. If Dread Return/Cookie Monster/Manaless Ichorid start to show promising results, Darkblast/Ray of Revelation/Pithing Needle/Chalice of the Void/Ancient Grudge/Root Maze have nothing on the Samurai. Chain of Vapor, Sickening Shoal, and Snuff Out are the options that could work, but those are very limited cards and the latter two are basically good only in the UW match-up (for Jotun Grunts currently).

-hq

[CwaM]

samourai is nice in many matches: dragon, ichorid, fish... that's why I'd never cut any of them

[wethepeople]

Lately I have been messing around with a UW Fish build with a fairly minor red splash. The splash mainly is utilized in the sideboard, but in the maindeck there are still a few goodies. Since my build focuses mainly on mana denial, I couldn't refuse to add the Monkey [Gorilla Shaman]. It works real well in the list because it actually is common to have an open land early game, so it is easy to shatter Moxes and the such.

Gorrilla Shaman replaces Savannah Lions, because Lions can just deal one additional damage, but Shaman is able to deprive your opponent of his moxes, and even on multiple occasions, I have been able to destroy Jitte game two.

The sideboard consists of exactly what you'd expect from red. A combination of REB's and Pyroblasts, occasionally Fire/Ice, or even my beloved Lightning Dart tech.

I understand that this thread is only concentrating on UW Fish builds, but I dont recollect very much discussion at all on UWr, and I felt that this is probably the most appropriate place to bring it up.

I have been testng the deck a lot though, and I am very satisfied with the matchups. It has a much better game versus Gifts and CS, which is great for NE tournament play, but those are of course just two archetypes commonly found in Vintage. Others I have tested enough to speak for is Stax, which actually is pretty good, just the third color weakens the mana base a bit creating it slightly more difficult than UW has. Fish is practically the same as UW, just I have more creature removal and never have to worry about Jitte because Monkey is able to handle it.

If anyone else is interested, I can post here, or possibly start my own thread, which I have already typed up and saved in a Word document. But since the splash isnt that much different, I doubt that will be necessary.

[Jank Golem]

Lately I have been messing around with a UW Fish build with a fairly minor red splash. The splash mainly is utilized in the sideboard, but in the maindeck there are still a few goodies. Since my build focuses mainly on mana denial, I couldn't refuse to add the Monkey [Gorilla Shaman]. It works real well in the list because it actually is common to have an open land early game, so it is easy to shatter Moxes and the such.

Gorrilla Shaman replaces Savannah Lions, because Lions can just deal one additional damage, but Shaman is able to deprive your opponent of his moxes, and even on multiple occasions, I have been able to destroy Jitte game two.

The sideboard consists of exactly what you'd expect from red. A combination of REB's and Pyroblasts, occasionally Fire/Ice, or even my beloved Lightning Dart tech.

I understand that this thread is only concentrating on UW Fish builds, but I dont recollect very much discussion at all on UWr, and I felt that this is probably the most appropriate place to bring it up.

I have been testng the deck a lot though, and I am very satisfied with the matchups. It has a much better game versus Gifts and CS, which is great for NE tournament play, but those are of course just two archetypes commonly found in Vintage. Others I have tested enough to speak for is Stax, which actually is pretty good, just the third color weakens the mana base a bit creating it slightly more difficult than UW has. Fish is practically the same as UW, just I have more creature removal and never have to worry about Jitte because Monkey is able to handle it.

If anyone else is interested, I can post here, or possibly start my own thread, which I have already typed up and saved in a Word document. But since the splash isnt that much different, I doubt that will be necessary.

It seems the biggest thing red gives you is REB/Pyroblast, which can give you a big edge in the control matchup. I don't think I would replace Lions with Gorilla Shaman though, Null Rod is a much effecient way to handle Moxen. Gorilla Shaman forces you to use your mana blowing up artifacts rather then casting other creatures. Null Rod however is a one time investment that keeps on working. I would consider a very small red splash for REB/Pyroblast and maybe Lava Dart, anything more then that would damage your mana base too much.

[Xiphoid]

The problem I have with splashing red even a minor one, is that it might cause havoc with the mana base. Is REB really that necessary against control?

I cut a Swords and a Lion for 2 Echoing Truth's and tested a bit. I wasn't overally impressed with the Truth's. They're nice sometimes for bouncing random permanents but the only real advantage I see them having is when an opponent gets a quick Tinker. Otherwise, in other matchups, they just end up being annoying and the threat is usually replayed the next turn. I found myself missing the 4th Swords a lot just because my meta has a fair amount of aggro. I'm only running 1 MD Echoing Truth and I have one in the SB as well.

We'll see how that goes.

[wethepeople]

The problem I have with splashing red even a minor one, is that it might cause havoc with the mana base. Is REB really that necessary against control?

I cut a Swords and a Lion for 2 Echoing Truth's and tested a bit. I wasn't overally impressed with the Truth's. They're nice sometimes for bouncing random permanents but the only real advantage I see them having is when an opponent gets a quick Tinker. Otherwise, in other matchups, they just end up being annoying and the threat is usually replayed the next turn. I found myself missing the 4th Swords a lot just because my meta has a fair amount of aggro. I'm only running 1 MD Echoing Truth and I have one in the SB as well.

We'll see how that goes.

The mana base isnt as weak as your really think it is, it just replaces a few basics with duals that do the same thing plus an additional color, that are open to Wastelands. The problem that I have seen, but very rarely at that is the lack of the proper color mana when you have a red spell at hand. I chose to make the splash very minor in my build to help avoid this issue, and recently it has been working for me a lot.

I have been seeing much more Control decks lately and less Fish, and very little Stax. With the decrease of these decks, I can sneak my mana base a little to just one basic without it becoming much of a problem. And since Drain decks are on the rise along with othe Combo once again, I have been inclined to run REB's, this is what encouraged me to add this splash. In addition to REB's I have been trying out Gorrilla Shamans, which are in fact weaker than Null Rods, I just chose them because they work both as a one-drop for Ninja of the Deep as well as an artifact hoser, where as Null Rod does not.

Also, Echoing Truth certainly is not the first choice of bounce that you want to be playing in Fish. This reaso is that Chalice of the Void, from my experience is more commonly casted with two counters on it, regardless of what build you are playing. Whether it is UW, UWb, URB, or even my most recent UWr, I have seen CotV-2 most often. This is the exact reason so many Fish decks have been running Chain of Vapor for their CC=1, and Rush River/Wipe Away which are standing at CC=3.

//wtp.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I think the benefit of having Echoing Truth will be shown only if Empty the Warrens gets as popular as everyone's hyping it to be.  I've been running two Chains and one Truth in my build and enjoy having the different utility, even if nine times out of ten they end up doing the same thing (bouncing Colossus).  Time will tell, I suppose.  Chain scares me a little bit because you always have to consider the possibility of them throwing it back at you.

[Xiphoid]

The problem I have with splashing red even a minor one, is that it might cause havoc with the mana base. Is REB really that necessary against control?

I cut a Swords and a Lion for 2 Echoing Truth's and tested a bit. I wasn't overally impressed with the Truth's. They're nice sometimes for bouncing random permanents but the only real advantage I see them having is when an opponent gets a quick Tinker. Otherwise, in other matchups, they just end up being annoying and the threat is usually replayed the next turn. I found myself missing the 4th Swords a lot just because my meta has a fair amount of aggro. I'm only running 1 MD Echoing Truth and I have one in the SB as well.

We'll see how that goes.

The mana base isnt as weak as your really think it is, it just replaces a few basics with duals that do the same thing plus an additional color, that are open to Wastelands. The problem that I have seen, but very rarely at that is the lack of the proper color mana when you have a red spell at hand. I chose to make the splash very minor in my build to help avoid this issue, and recently it has been working for me a lot.

I have been seeing much more Control decks lately and less Fish, and very little Stax. With the decrease of these decks, I can sneak my mana base a little to just one basic without it becoming much of a problem. And since Drain decks are on the rise along with othe Combo once again, I have been inclined to run REB's, this is what encouraged me to add this splash. In addition to REB's I have been trying out Gorrilla Shamans, which are in fact weaker than Null Rods, I just chose them because they work both as a one-drop for Ninja of the Deep as well as an artifact hoser, where as Null Rod does not.

Also, Echoing Truth certainly is not the first choice of bounce that you want to be playing in Fish. This reaso is that Chalice of the Void, from my experience is more commonly casted with two counters on it, regardless of what build you are playing. Whether it is UW, UWb, URB, or even my most recent UWr, I have seen CotV-2 most often. This is the exact reason so many Fish decks have been running Chain of Vapor for their CC=1, and Rush River/Wipe Away which are standing at CC=3.

//wtp.

With the rise of Drain and Combo again, should we consider splashing black for Confidant and Duress. I've been debating this splash for a long time but decided to stick with the consistency of U/W. Perhaps it's time to splash black?

[Dxfiler]

Well, it's been a while... and there's a big tourney coming up... so it's time for another...

BIG ASS FISH UPDATE BEFORE A GIANT TOURNEY UPDATE!

:p

First off, the exact list card for card I plan on running for Stratdford-bury if I play this deck-

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Island
    4  Flooded Strand
    4  Tundra
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Windswept Heath
    1  Plains

// Creatures
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    3  Jotun Grunt
    2  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    3  Savannah Lions

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Force of Will
    3  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Null Rod
    1  Time Walk
    4  Daze
    2  Misdirection
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3  Orim's Chant
SB: 3  Old Man of the Sea
SB: 3  Leyline of the Void

The main is just about the usual.  Too many clumps on Isamaru have made me run only two.  Three lions seems right.  The mystical tutor is a new addition for sure, but I felt the card selection it gives is worth it given the massive counter suite in the deck.  Four daze and 2 Misdirection have been great.  I have the random echoing truth as an alternative to stopping colossus and also to combat the increasingly popular empty the warrens.  It's been huge in my area and I usually have to fight tooth and claw against ETW gifts.  E. truth makes that battle MUCH easier.  Etruth is also fine in virtually every matchup, particularly helping the sometimes problematic bomberman games where you're stuck facing down a 2/4. 

The sideboard is basically geared towards the increasingly popularity of tendrils combo, ichorid and bomberman.  There has been significant rise in all three decks.  Old Man over threads seems so much better in the metagame right now (at least in my area), even though I still love threads.  There's just too much bomberman flying around.  You lose the perk of being able to steal Grunt and can't immediately take advantage of confidant off old man, but I'm sick of having practically nothing to bring in against Salvagers.  It shouldn't be a rough match given the tempo blue white has, but I usually have to fight tooth and claw in that match.  Old Man makes life so much easier.  He's also still fine in fish mirrors.  People are starting to figure out threads coming in anyway and combat it with duress, seals, and random junk like 8.5 tails.  Old Man gets around all that.  For right now, I'm pretty sure it's the right call over threads.

You may be scratching your head at Leyline, but most Ichorid cannot beat it.  You basically treat leyline the same way they play with Bazzar- aggressively mulligan to it.  People just don't expect Leyline out of fish, and even if they do there isn't a whole lot that can be done outside of emerald charm and ray of revelation.  Manaless Ichorid pretty much folds to Leyline, while they can usually recover off tormod's crypt within 1-2 turns.  Without leyline Ichorid is a very hard match, with it post board it's drastically in your favor if you have aggressively mulligan to it opening hand.  Leyline is also solid against Pitch Long.  Tormod's crypt is very easy to work around.  Leyline requires them playing completely different from the start.  Yes, it's dead against long if you draw it later on since you pretty much can't cast it short of a lotus... but that's why I only run 3.  Orim's Chant is still the MVP in that particular match, but Long is so strong right now that I really want 3 more cards to bring into battle with them.  Leyline seems to cover that spot nicely.   

I cut down on a seal and a kataki in the board.  I'd like to have a 4th of both but there just isn't room.  the card I most want four of is null rod, but there are so many decks where you just don't want four and as I've said many times before... more than one is usually bad.  So it's just not worth the room.

I actually took a good, long look at Suppression field.  It's been doing well for a friend of mine, but he runs it in Workshop Aggro.  I don't see enough benefit to run it in fish other than it beats the holy hell out of Bazzar of baghdad, but much like Pithing needle, it's only good if you go first.  Unlike Stax/Workshop Aggro, you can't just drop it on turn 1 regularly.  Fish only runs 2 mox and a lotus :p  If you're going to go that narrow against Ichorid, might as wel go all out and run Leyline.  Neelde is more versatile since you can also bring it in against bomberman and sometimes other decks (slaver), but it never seems to pack enough punch.  I always feel like I've mulliganed when I have a needle in my hand.  You already have mages so it just seems like overkill. 


Stifle is something I go back and forth on, but I still don't think it's needed here.  I'm loving the dazes and there's nothing else main I want to cut either.  Mystical, while being fairly new to my version, is something I've been happy to have and don't see that leaving anytime soon.

I've tested the fish alot lately (obv :p) and it's still very strong.  The mana seems spot on now, since I cut a plains bringing the land count down slightly but it seems worth it.  i was getting flooded too much and having 2 plains and only 1 heath felt odd.  Also, fetching a plains with flooded strand was usually subpar.  The mana is tighter but I feel like every spot in the deck is correct at the moment.  4 Wasteland is the only thing I question, but every time I do I'm thankful for all four.  They bail me out so much it just seems wrong to cut one for color consistency.

The deck is still hard to play with, so practice with it :p  A couple of my friends who usually play ptq's commented on how deceptively hard the deck is to pilot and I agree.  The number one thing I see people screw up on are Jotun Grunts.  It's something I can't really delve into because it's dependant on the scenario.  Generally speaking, Grunting fast mana is a good thing against combo (yawg will).  Grunting Lands is a good thing against Stax (crucible).  Grunting yourself is a generally great thing in the mirror match.  Those are the basics, but there's so much more to it than that.  All i can say is practice playing with Grunt, because when and how you Grunt is so crucial yet most people take it for granted.

That's all I have for now.  I like the deck a ton and think it's very strong right now.  I'll probably play it at least one of the two days unless something else strikes my fancy at the last minute.  Chances are I run UW fish both days.  No need to keep stuff secret, that's for lame people :p

Good luck to anyone who runs the fish.  Feel free to say hello if you attend TMD 10.  I'm friendly... usually

- Dave Feinstein 

[CwaM]

Trickbind over orim's chant for the P.Long match up? (also nice vs ETW)
Also, I really like icatian javelineers for killing confidant, welders, lions...
About LotV, playing 3 of them and advising to mulligan aggressively for them is kinda weird imho.

[Scyther]

Hi at all.

I really love to play UW Fish and I think i read nearly all of your articles and the primer (of course )

But I'm stil wondering about two things:

1. I dont get why you dont play Ninjas. Of course Ninja of the Deep Hours. ^^
    Seriously, if Bob would be white everyone would play him.And the card which is most like him is the Ninja. I mean you play 2 Misd's in Addition to the FoW's and your count of Handcards must be very low even after 1-2 turns. The Ninjas could help this a lot, drawing cards while disrupting him and beat with the little Cats ^^

2. Stifle is so great. I still don't understand why you say its a one-trick pony... I realized how people are even afraid of it. If the opp has only Fetchies in Hand he have to mulligan if he knows your playing it or he will lose a land (and a life... ^^). And even on the draw its okay to have one. To "Sinkhole-for-one-mana" can really disrupt the opp. Its also a miny Time Walk against Oath and sometimes Stax (Smokestack...).
By the way: what do you do against Oath except boarding 3 Seals and run away.... ^^'' ?
I hope everyone understand what I want to say. 

The Mystical is a good addition which took a long way to get into your deck ^^'The ETruth is then obvious, but I would like it more if it was for one mana. I think everyone would but I think in this context about the Chalice2. The Truth helps not in this szenario while the CoV2 nearly shuts down the whole dec...

Last thing: Do you think the future will tend more to the UWB Variants?

So enough from me for now

greetz =)

[Tobi]

I have to agree on the Stifle topic. It really helps the mana denial theme plus it does a lot more, like getting around Chalice@2 and it's use against combo. Stifle is a hell of a tempo card.

Abount the Leylines, I think the idea is great, but to really get to use it you should run 4. Mulliganing to a card you have 3 copies in your deck can be annoying and since you need to have it in your opening hand you should maximize your chances for it.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Is Samurai of the Pale Curtain too narrow (affecting only permanents) to be good against Ichorid?  It seems like it would actually be really good, especially in conjunction with Grunt.  First, it's a 2/2 body that becomes 3/3 against other creatures.  Second, they can't Cabal Therapy you without losing the creature for good, let alone just bringing in Shadows and Ichorids and attacking.  Maybe it's too easy for them to dredge enough creatures to Therapy and Dread Return in the same turn?  SoPC is also good against 5c Stax since Welder and Crucible tricks are kept to a minimum.

I also love Stifle.  It does so much that you don't even consider sometimes--Bazaar, Welder, fetchlands, Wastelands, Stax pieces, Tendrils, ETW, Memory Jar (that's a fun one), Mana Drain...  I've had the joy of Stifling my Ichorid playing opponent's Bazaar, then Wasting it multiple times.  One guy actually broke Lotus to play first turn hardcast Ashen Ghoul in game two after I Stiflewasted his Bazaar in game one.

Also, do you bring in Jittes against Ichorid?

[wethepeople]

I also love Stifle.  It does so much that you don't even consider sometimes--Bazaar, Welder, fetchlands, Wastelands, Stax pieces, Tendrils, ETW, Memory Jar (that's a fun one), Mana Drain...

Oh boy, that list can go on forever. I like Stifle a lot, but it would most likely be the one to replace Daze, which also is good. Stifle is playable in some decks, but it seems to me like it isnt best in UW where you need to more proactive with your mana, where as Daze does not actually require you to leave land untapped. Stifle on the other hand is reactive, and requires you to hold back on that one Savannah Lions in your hand to really do anything. So it probably is best not to be play in UW.

I have tested it before, and it was good, just not amazing. I had more fun with Daze because game two, my opponent was holding one mana open incase I were to have Daze, which I rarely even did, but still, the presence of Daze causes opponents to be a little more cautious games two and tres.

I like Stifle in my UB variants, and Daze in UW, why? I can't really explain.

[Metman]

Thanks for sharing your list with us; I like how confident you are in your choices and skill to post it so close to a big tourny. 

On the Stifle debate, I think you can't go wrong in U/W Fish with those last 3-4 slots.  I have fallen in love with Daze in my build and I felt that Stifle makes Daze even better.  The direct and indirect mana denial of this deck is ridiculous.  Daze can be a SOB to play around and if you keep hitting their land with Waste/Strip, using Null Rod to stop artifacts, as well as stifling fetchlands, they will be forced to go out on a limb tapping down everything they have to respond to your creatures.  It's this kind of desperation that makes Daze so strong.  It's either that or they use their pitch spells to stop a lonely Daze. 

I always have a fishy deck to test against when I'm running what I am planning to take to a tourny.  I recently built Dave's U/W and added the Stifles MD and gave the deck to my testing partners.  It didn't matter which deck I played, I always felt like a was being handcuffed.  That's when I really dove into U/W fish and it has become a real staple in my testing.  It's gameplan is simple and effective and it always has an answer to anything an opponent can throw at you.  What I found especially frustrating is it's ability to mess with my mana development.  Stifle just goes along with that plan in addition to it's resourcefulness in other situations. 

[Dxfiler]

Thanks for the responses.  I'll get to as many as possible one at a time.

Trickbind over orim's chant for the P.Long match up? (also nice vs ETW)
Also, I really like icatian javelineers for killing confidant, welders, lions...
About LotV, playing 3 of them and advising to mulligan aggressively for them is kinda weird imho.

As I've mentioned alot in various reports/this thread, Orim's Chant is just better than trickbind in a world where duress lurks in almost every combo sideboard.  Yes Trickbind is uncounterable, but you can't fire one off in the face of duress to buy yourself another turn.  That's huge.  Javilineers aren't really good right now in my area because combo is the dominant force.  It seems much better in your neck of the woods, where there's alot of fish and welder decks.  LOTV in a fish board and advising people to aggressively mulligan to it is certainly unconventional, but I find Ichorid to be such a piss poor match that you have to take those kind of measures.

Is Samurai of the Pale Curtain too narrow (affecting only permanents) to be good against Ichorid?  It seems like it would actually be really good, especially in conjunction with Grunt.  First, it's a 2/2 body that becomes 3/3 against other creatures.  Second, they can't Cabal Therapy you without losing the creature for good, let alone just bringing in Shadows and Ichorids and attacking.  Maybe it's too easy for them to dredge enough creatures to Therapy and Dread Return in the same turn?  SoPC is also good against 5c Stax since Welder and Crucible tricks are kept to a minimum.


Also, do you bring in Jittes against Ichorid?

 

Samurai seems just too narrow.  The WW is hard to come by consistently on turns 1-2, and that's where el samurai really shines.  I'd rather have crypt over Samurai, because crypt stops ichorid/ghouls.  Being able to stop cabal therapy with samurai doesn't seem to be worth it.  Bazzar is the real problem card in this match.  Leyline seems like the best answer out of the ones I've tested. 

I do bring in jitte against ichorid, usually doing a simple rod for jitte swap.  I forgot to mention that previously.  It's solid if unspectacular.  With leylines, I now have 6 cards to bring in.  Probably dazes/misD go out.  I could see making a case for siding out force of will, but that's just plain wrong if against a player with Dread Return.  If you run stifle, that's a fine card to board out for leylines.

Hi at all.

I really love to play UW Fish and I think i read nearly all of your articles and the primer (of course )

But I'm stil wondering about two things:

1. I dont get why you dont play Ninjas. Of course Ninja of the Deep Hours. ^^
    Seriously, if Bob would be white everyone would play him.And the card which is most like him is the Ninja. I mean you play 2 Misd's in Addition to the FoW's and your count of Handcards must be very low even after 1-2 turns. The Ninjas could help this a lot, drawing cards while disrupting him and beat with the little Cats ^^

By the way: what do you do against Oath except boarding 3 Seals and run away.... ^^'' ?
I hope everyone understand what I want to say. 

Last thing: Do you think the future will tend more to the UWB Variants?

Ninjas are slow :p  If I'm gonna play ninjas I'd just go black for confidant.  I don't know if future variants will go with UWB consistently.  I've had issues with UWB in the past, dying to my own confidant flips.  I don't like not being able to run Misdirection in fish, and if you play with confidant that's pretty much how it goes.  Also the mana base is much more fragile.  You really only get duress/confidant off black, and I don't think that's good enough reason to break the consistency of straight UW builds.  You get virtually identical combo matches (sometimes a slight edge off duress), while giving up the edge in aggro matches.  UWB is basically dead on arrival versus Stax.

Keep in mind I'm not taking a dump on UWB fish (no one get any bright ideas and start calling me a three color h8'er :p).  It's a valid deck, but for me personally I'm happy with UW.  The consistency the deck brings off being only 2 colors is just unmatched for me.   

Against Oath, I do in fact board 3 seals and run away.  Sometimes I'll go overboard and bring in chants.  The extra turn can matter.  If on the draw I like a daze/chant swap.  Any delay in them getting oath out is A GOOD THING.  On the play daze should be maindeck.

I think the benefit of having Echoing Truth will be shown only if Empty the Warrens gets as popular as everyone's hyping it to be.  I've been running two Chains and one Truth in my build and enjoy having the different utility, even if nine times out of ten they end up doing the same thing (bouncing Colossus).  Time will tell, I suppose.  Chain scares me a little bit because you always have to consider the possibility of them throwing it back at you.

Empty the warrens has shown up in multiple decks in the last 3 top 8's of tourneys I've attended.  All three tourneys had over 25 people.  One of them had 45.  Empty is so good that it's showing up in slaver boards now (Reference: Shay, Richard).  It's potency was known for a long time in my area but alot of people just kept quiet on it.  I know the card completely scares me to death.  I think it will eventually replace tinker/colossus as the secondary kill in gifts.  I know Brassman already phased out tinker/darksteel for empty and has been running people down. 

This might be forward thinking, but I like having a gameplan for this card even though it has yet to explode in a big tourney.  I gurantee you it will make an impact this weekend at Waterbury.  I'd love to be wrong there, because the card freaking tears a hole into fish, but it's been putting up the numbers a hell of alot lately.  The results don't lie.

Even if Empty the Warrens doesn't show up (crosses fingers), Echoing Truth is pretty much castable against any deck you could possibly come across.  Again, it's nice against bomberman and pretty solid against Stax if chalice for 2 isn't out.  Yes, chalice for 2 hurts, but as pointed out by many stax is on the decline and wipe away certainly isn't going to be any better in that match.  You should pretty much never have 1UU open mid to late game against a competent stax player.

Quote from everyone-

"FEINSTEIN WHY DO YOU H8 ON STIFLE, IT'S A PLAYA.  WHY U GOTTA BE A PLAYA HATA?!"

Me and stifle are tight, we go way back in the day.  :p  I think stifle in UW fish is fine, and i agree with everyone posting recently that it has a home here.  As mentioned by Metman, the interaction it gets with Daze/rod/wastes is invaluable.  The problem is I don't want many of them.  I can see cutting 1 misd and *cringes* 1 daze for 2 stifle.  This gives you a board out plan of 2 stifle and a misD for matches where Daze would've been boarded out instead.  I know against Stax, I want stifle out before daze.

That's everything I can think of off the top of my head from the responses.  Thanks so much for them.  : D

- Dave Feinstein





 

[Xiphoid]

Hope the one Plains you cut doesn't screw you over too much. I tested the deck with 18 lands and I was left looking for a second land more then I wanted to be in the first few turns.

[Scyther]

At first I agree with the cutting of the Plains. It's totally correct to have 21 mana sources. I personally play with 2 Plains but have without Lotus. This is just for budget reasons (On this side of the world proxy tornaments are very rare...) If i would have the Lotus 1 Plains would be cut. Rest of the Mana base is same like Feinstein plays nearly always.

About the Ninjas: They are a bit slow I agree, B U T´it's not much slower than the Confidant. In fact it comes with semi-instant speed, draws definitly a card when it comes into play, is blue (pitch...), has good synergy with Grunt+ Mystical+Meddling Mage, beats for 2...
Its a really decent card for this dec. And it needs really something that generates a bit card advantage. And if you bounce a Cat/Hound the one mana to replay them isn't that much.

I also thought about teching a Merchant Scroll just to get the Anc or a Force. And with Grunty you can replay a Anc in one Game...
I know everybody hates card selection in Fishtype decs, but why. If Demonic Tutor would be blue wouldnt we play it? ^^'

Oh yeah and with having Mystical in the dec for now I thing in the Board an Disenchant should be added or just replaced by a seal.

2 Stifle is imo definitly the way to go while I think Misd has more use in decks that have to resolve important spells (like Oath) instead of  what fish do....

greez =)

[wethepeople]

2 Stifle is imo definitly the way to go while I think Misd has more use in decks that have to resolve important spells (like Oath) instead of  what fish do....

Stifle isnt very good right now, and it is unplayable unless you run four MD, three at the least. Stifle is good for Fish because it stops Wastelands, Fetches, Bob, and so much else. Versus Drain decks and Combo you can occasionally get lucky on a bad player and Stifle Tendrils, but that requires them to be stupid enough to not-Duress. The only thing you can be using Stifle for right about now is Fetches, with the exception of a few things in your own deck (Jotun Grunt).

You [dave] mentioned that you would board out Stifles versus Stax, which is in fact a rare matchup in NE, but even so, I think Stifle is great versus Stax. It allows you to stop Strips, get by Wire or Smokestacks for a turn, as well as stop Welder. The only real con that I see in Stifle in this specific matchup is that it requires mana.

However, I am not proposing that you run Stifle even if it is good in a couple matchups, because the problem is that those matchups are far less common. Misdirection is at it's peak right now because it actually does something versus Gifts and CS, as well as protect you a bit in the Fish mirror.

[Xiphoid]

Congrats to Feinstein for making top 8 with Fish! I'm looking forward to his post-tourney analysis and match report.

On another note, since Brassman won with ETW Gifts and even Smmenen already said that Gifts should be built to abuse ETW, I have a feeling that there's going to be a lot more ETW Gifts. Feinstein already mentioned that in his meta people have already switched over.

Echoing Truth FTW!! 

[wethepeople]

At first I did not understand why people suggestd running E-Truth, but recently after playing multiple ETW-based decks, I decide to run it in my URBana Fish build. (which actually works well since a majority of my creatures are 1-drops)

Ninjas are slow :p  If I'm gonna play ninjas I'd just go black for confidant.  I don't know if future variants will go with UWB consistently.  I've had issues with UWB in the past, dying to my own confidant flips.  I don't like not being able to run Misdirection in fish, and if you play with confidant that's pretty much how it goes.  Also the mana base is much more fragile.  You really only get duress/confidant off black, and I don't think that's good enough reason to break the consistency of straight UW builds.  You get virtually identical combo matches (sometimes a slight edge off duress), while giving up the edge in aggro matches.  UWB is basically dead on arrival versus Stax.

I agree with you when it comes to Ninjas, but the black splash really seems strong right now. You said it yourself, Combo and other Drain decks are dominating your metagame, which they certainly are, so at this point having a strong mana base shouldn't really be your prime objective because last I checked, not too many Gifts variants run Wasteland.

 I have brought out UWb for this particular meta time and time again, and it thrilled me. I understand that it is a little less consistent, but going through such problems is minor at that. Having Duress gives you more than just a "slight edge" versus Control, it takes out Drains and other key spells that are required for them to go off, which commonly wins you games.

On the subject of Dark Confidant, I cannot understand why you wouldn't want to play it. You mentioned that you hated losing to its flips, which seems impossible to me with a deck loaded with virtually all 1-drops and the only actual high CC spell being Force of Will, and occasionally Misdirection.

I am going to try out a list very similar to the standard UW Fish deck, just with a minor black splash ONLY for Bob and Duress because I want to avoid all issues with my mana. I will test it out a bit versus several common Vintage decks including Stax, regardless of the fact that it is uncommon here in NE.

But anyway, congrats to Dave on your finish at TMD X.

[Xiphoid]

If you add Bob, are you going to cut the one drops or 2 drops? If you cut the one drops, the deck becomes too congested at that slot. I can't see cutting MM or Grunt, so it would seem that Kataki would get the axe? I'm not sure how I feel about cutting Kataki. He's pretty good against any artifact-heavy deck and combined with Rod is a house.

I'm not saying Bob/Duress are bad, the question is, where do we fit them in?

[wethepeople]

To make room for the black splash, I personally would make the following changes to the standard UW Fish build. Keep in mind this is with no testing, and obviously it will be modified after I get a little better of an idea of how it plays. I will use Dave's most recent UW build that he posted on here for referance.

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Island
    4  Flooded Strand
    4  Tundra
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Windswept Heath
    1  Plains

// Creatures
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    3  Jotun Grunt
    2  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    3  Savannah Lions

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Force of Will
    3  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Null Rod
    1  Time Walk
    4  Daze
    2  Misdirection
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3  Orim's Chant
SB: 3  Old Man of the Sea
SB: 3  Leyline of the Void

I can easily say that I like the looks of this list, but for a more Control/Combo heavy environment, I think I am willing to take the risk of weakening the MB a bit.

I have been recomended by various people who have much skill in Vintage to always run about 8 draw spells in a deck, UW Fish has five: Brainstorm and AR. So with the addition of black I get another draw engine, Dark Confidant, along with more fetchlands, resulting in Brainstorm being even better, therefore I have no intentions of cutting Bstorm.

So on the subject of figuring out what to cut for Bob. I personally dont feel that Kataki is really necessary in the maindeck anymore. Fish being a metagame deck, is designed to fit your meta, correct? My meta consists of Drain decks, Combo, Fish, and other jank, but virtually no Stax. With the decrease of Stax, Kataki's power decreases also, to the point where I really don't find any purpose in running it. I understand that Kataki works similar to an additional Null Rod versus most other decks, but it only works the turn after the artifact is played, so really it has no effect on too many decks since they can just hold their Moxen until they choose to "go off." So what I am saying is, Kataki seems weak to me, it certainly depends on your metagame though. If you see a lot of Stax, obviously you should not be splashing any other colors anyway, so Kataki should stay for this situation, but this is certainly not the case for me.

-3 Kataki, War's Wage
+3 Dark Confidant

Duress needs to find a slot now, and with Bob now part of the deck the last thing you want to be doing is revealing additional Force of Wills, or Misdirections. So at a first glance, I think it's best that Misd is cut, however it may find it's way back if it plays out well.

-2 Misd
+2 Duress

Now my problem is that I still would like to add one more Dark Confidant, and one, maybe two more Duresses. (one can easily be placed in the board) I may be forced to cut either a Brainstorm for Confidant, because that is a fair switch, or one of the kittens. I personally have never been a fan of running 2/1 who do nothing else in a deck that has no way to take advantage of them, but that won't be changing unless I figure something better.

I once had a UWb Fish list that ran Children of Korlis rather than Lions because I really dont find it necessary to deal one extra damage where I could save my ass versus Combo, or buy another turn versus everything else. That actually seems like a decent idea in a land of Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens.

Does anyone else have any input on the black splash. I know there is a UWb Fish deck in the other Vintage forum, however I cannot post there because I am yet to complete my exam.

300!