Stax and WorkShop Aggro's answers to Empty the Warrens.

[LotusHead]

Empty the Warrens is often a 1 of in Tendrils decks (even Slaver) and about a 3 of post board.  What is a Shop deck to do? 

What options do we have as Stax/Shop Aggro players?

Ensnaring Bridge? Great if 0 cards in hand.

Weakstone (embarassinly, in my MWS Gilded Claw sideboard at the moment) Doable, technically.  Slows down Fish matchup.

Earthquake? Pwned!

Platinum Angel? Great, except Chain of Vapor, Rebuild are combo pieces to decks that play ETW.

Uh....

Jester's Cap has been handy (I sometimes have 3 post board), but...

What options do we have?

Shops decks have been silent as of late.

Discuss.

[Moxlotus]

Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale completely destroys EtW tokens.  Plus, it can't be bounced with any of the commonly played bounce spells.

[LotusHead]

Sweet!

Any input on the 1 damage to everything options?  Like Dry Spell (I think) or Earthquake for 1?

[Scott_Limoges]

Caltrops

[diopter]

Slice and Dice.

[Implacable]

Slice and Dice.

This and the Tabernacle are the main ones that I've seen played.  The nice thing is that they're both uncounterable, which is what makes them better than most other pieces.

[wethepeople]

Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale completely destroys EtW tokens.  Plus, it can't be bounced with any of the commonly played bounce spells.

I really like that idea. I have never seen it used to fight ETW before, though, I have seen it brought in versus Fish.

I use Engineered Explosives in almost every other deck that I use. In Mono Red Stax, BR Stax, and the all of the like, I used Slice and Dice because it is uncounterable.

Although, Tabernacle is probably going to be my new weapon of choice, seeing as it can only be taken care of by Wastelands, which aren't even run in ETW-decks, and Wipe Away. I also really like the fact that it can handle Dark Confidant, Kataki, etcetara.

[matthewCURBSTOMP]

I've been playing MDG and Ritual Gifts a lot lately and must say that Tabernacle is what I'm most afraid of. Ensnaring Bridge or Caltrops aren't even solutions to EtW since it's purpose is to just make most of your lock pieces null and void. Tabernacle really puts a damper on the EtW stall route.

[policehq]

In addition to mauling fellow Goblins, the Goblin Sharpshooter completely owns Ichorid.

-hq

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I wrote a rather large thread on my Workshop Aggro deck sporting Devastating Dreams as an answer to Empty The Warrens. It didn't get any responses, but that doesn't mean I won't continue playing the deck.

Acting as a mini Armaggedon while beating down with Big Jugz can also seal the deal if needed.

[Luecifer]

im suprised powder keg hasnt been mentioned here yet. while it has been discussed, it is my personal favorite answer to ETW. yes it can be countered, but that along with say a tabernacle in the board give great synergy against warrens.

[Bill Copes]

Balance is some good if it isn't countered.  I've even (sadly) contemplated using a cycled Decree of Pain in my B/W stax deck, since it's also great against fish.  5 mana isn't that hard to achieve, especially with that snazzy new urborg.

* Edit *  Engineered Plague could work too, in conjunction with chalice set at 1 to circumvent chain of vapor.

[madmanmike25]

I think Tabernacle is the best so far unless your opponent is able to cast EtW and Time Walk the same turn for the kill.  Then Slice and Dice would be better.

But there are plenty of options for EtW, you need to clarify if the deck is mono colored(red) or 5c, or the options will include cards like sandstorm.

*edit:  Weakstone????  Seems just a wee bit narrow to me.

[TheMuffinMan]

I assume that if you are planning on playing earthquake, that you are going to play rolling earthquake instead?

Also, tabernacle seems really good, but how many would you recommend in the sideboard? Is it worth it to have any main deck in a 5color stax?

It seems like slice and dice might be a little narrow, and that double red for the hardcast is a little harsh for anything except mono uba. Even 5c stax is going to either take some serious pain, or lose some essential gemstone mine counters.

Caltrops
Good against ichorid (ancient grudge might make this less relevant) and also sutured ghoul laughs at this, good in multiples against fish, good against etw unless it gets bounced

Rolling Earthquake
Good against general aggro and good against etw if they don't timewalk combo kill you. i think the mentality with this card is that you should have them on the ropes enough hopefully for them to have to combo w/o timewalk in hand.

Tabernacle
Good against general aggro except it is vulnerable to wasteland, pwns etw but it is also legendary

Slice and Dice
Good against general aggro if you can realistically support the full cc, its cycling effect is very good against etw, but even if they combo with timewalk you might not have the mana available

I think if you can support it, slice and dice and tabernacle combo is probably the best at combating etw and having some utility against fish. Without being able to support double red, I would probably go for some combonation of rolling earthquake and tabernacle. It would probably be metagame contingent.

Is there enough room for 3 slice and dice/rolling earthquake and 2 tabernacle (is this the right number to run)?

[Dralock]

There are a lot of solutions:

Echoing Decay
Echoing Truth
Scattershot
Slice and Dice
nev's disc
Mindslaver
etc.

A million tokens are easy to get rid of, especially 1/1. How is this any different than dragon with caller of the claw?

[wethepeople]

Now, I doubt this is the best solution to ETW, though, it does get the job done, as well as a great overall card in the Aggro matchup- Pyroclasm. As a Fish player, I have seen it come in various times, and it certainly is effective. So in addition to handling nearly every creature played in Vintage, it also takes care of the new Goblin tokens. It is worth being taken into consideration.

The only down-side to it, really, is the fact that it can be countered. Unlike other contenders, such as Tabernacle, and Slice and Dice.

[Yare]

Simoon is also a possibility that has not been mentioned, although I don't know how easily you could get the colors for it.

[LotusHead]

Thanks for all the wonderful responses.  It has given me food for thought.  I am slow to change my deck (generally 1 card per tourney, mainboard or SB), but haven't been active lately.

I noticed that on WMS, ETW=I Lose, hence the thread.

My particular build is "The Gilded Claw" as seen on my Eudemonia tourney reports, is 5c (well, 3 really) and had 50/50 matchups  versus combo and control, until ETW hit the field.

Explosives are great, but my deck gets matched up against Null Rod decks often, but ETW doecks don't usually play Null Rod.  Maybe Explosives is best. (And Tabernacle, but Tabernacle takes up a Proxy slot in my meta.)

[Godder]

You could consider Tremor (R, 1 damage to creatures without flying) and/or Krark-Clan Shaman (R for a 1/1, with sac an artifact: Tremor).

[Akuma]

You can also use Volcanic Spray, 1R Sorcery, 1 damage to all creatures with flashback for 1R. Fairly effective, combos with Bazaar if you are using it, and it has to be countered twice.

[yespuhyren]

And you can cast it twice vs decks like Ichorid/Fish

[wethepeople]

You can also use Volcanic Spray, 1R Sorcery, 1 damage to all creatures with flashback for 1R. Fairly effective, combos with Bazaar if you are using it, and it has to be countered twice.

Why didn't I think of that? I recently used it in a random-cards-Draft with a few friends of mine, and it was insane for me. (keep in mind, I was up against decks using all commons, hand-selected from random piles of cards.)

Quite frankly, I don't think Stax has that much to worry about when up against ETW. It has more answers to Goblin tokens than I can count:

• Tremor
• Engineered Explosives
• Pyroclasm
• Volcanic Spray
• Echoing Decay
• Slice and Dice
• Tabernacle of Pendrel Vale
• Pestilence?
• Goblin Shapshooter
• and so much more!

This is all just in the / color range. I feel like I am advertising something. 

[yespuhyren]

This is all just in the / color range. I feel like I am advertising something. 

Best ad for U/W stax in history!  I can't believe I didn't pick up on the hint!

[LotusHead]

My first efforts to use 1 Tabernacle, 1 Volcanic Spraw versus a (repeal) Gifts deck on MWS ended up with me suiciding myself from that last point of damage Spray does.

To be fair, this was after 2nd or third time walk turn by said Gifts player.

Frown.

[Thegreatgonzo]

In a rainbow stax, Propaganda or ghostly prison could be efficient answers. They also help in the ichorid match up, since 2 mana is hard to get for them.

Aether flash is cute, but it kills your welders, and the casting cost is prohibitive. (Ok, this one 's a joke  )

[wethepeople]

This is all just in the / color range. I feel like I am advertising something. 

Best ad for U/W stax in history!  I can't believe I didn't pick up on the hint!

U/W has far less answers. The only reason B/R is so good is because those two colors focus on Burn, and creature removal. Pyroclasm, Echoing Decay, and so forth, all have been reprinted in various different versions for quite some time now, so decks using those given color-configurations aren't going to have much of a problem when it comes to taking care of Empty the Warrens-tokens.


/ has:

• Engineered Explosives
• Echoing Truth
• Propaganda
• Ghostly Prison
• Holy Light
• Tabernacle
• and my favorite: Tivadar's Crusade!

Also, Rain of Blades - Godder.

[misslehead3]

I'm pretty sure you play in California, so last i checked, it was filled with oath and Stax and ichorid. So what about Engineered Plaugue. Think about it.

It kills ETW
It kills Oath Tokens
It kills random goblins
It kills part of Ichorid, by naming horrors or such.

[Evenpence]

I'm pretty sure you play in California, so last i checked, it was filled with oath and Stax and ichorid. So what about Engineered Plaugue. Think about it.

It kills ETW
It kills Oath Tokens
It kills random goblins
It kills part of Ichorid, by naming horrors or such.

Tabernacle does not kill ETW.  It simply allows the BBC player a small to medium number of them.

Slice and Dice actually kills them, and is likewise uncounterable.

[defector]

Back in the FCG days i ran caltrops, but id dont feel so comforable now that there is so much bounce coming out of these decks. Its a tough call.

[wethepeople]

I'm pretty sure you play in California, so last i checked, it was filled with oath and Stax and ichorid. So what about Engineered Plaugue. Think about it.

It kills ETW
It kills Oath Tokens
It kills random goblins
It kills part of Ichorid, by naming horrors or such.

Tabernacle does not kill ETW.  It simply allows the BBC player a small to medium number of them.

Slice and Dice actually kills them, and is likewise uncounterable.

True, but it kills most of them, as well as restricts your opponent from playing spells, by depriving them of their mana, in which they must use to keep out their tokens.

I assume Tabernacle is strong versus Ichorid, though, I may be mistaken, because in the end it comes down to the time it resolves. Oath can easily get around it. It has proven to be strong versus most Aggro decks by killing their creatures, and virtually cutting their clock in half.

Slice and Dice is also a very strong contendor. It is my primary-choice in Mono builds because it is easy to use, and most importantly, it is uncounterable.

Engineered Plague doesn't seem vary good. It is narrow, counterable, and overall, requires too much mana. If I were to play Mono , I would use Echoing Decay for Empty the Warrens, and Fish.