The Mountains Win Again!

[nineisnoone]

Well,  I haven't tested it myself.  Personally, the fact that it cost too much for it's size is a simple-flat-out-fatal-flaw in it.  There are other 2 power 1 mana red creatures, though I don't know if I'd say they are better.  But yeah, it's 2 for 2/2 and 5 for 4/4.  I would rather play Blood Knight for First Strike and Protection White than Figure.  And lord knows, I've considered playing worse cards. But that's me.  Let me know how it goes.

And when exactly are you planning on playing?  It's legal in a week, I believe.

[xwt]

I pretty much play all the time.

Seriously, try it. FoD is the finisher we needed in order to stop splashing for goyf in every deck.

[TopSecret]

Well, in theory, Figure seems pretty good,
since you won't necessarily be tapping down every turn, depending on your build.
If you play a bunch of reactive spells and instant speed tricks like Mindcensor,
then you'll probably have some extra mana to use at the end of their turn.

In a build with maindeck Mindcensor, Swords and/or Path to Exile, Pyroblast, and Shattering Spree,
and Canonist to slow the game down, giving you excess mana,
it seems to me that Figure could be downright bad-ass.

Of course, testing it is the best solution. I don't have enough time to, sadly.

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

@xwt: I'd probably up the gargadon count to 4 just because he can totally wreak house against oath in game one, which is why i'm guessing he's in there. Unicorn would probably be good out of the board since oath decks tend to bring in the shroud angels for game 2-3 against aggro type decks, making swords worse. Lots of tez decks seem to be boarding in a oath board too so he also helps out there.
Good luck with the deck and figure is the sauce, he's such a bomb against drain decks if you get him out turn one.

[Myriad Games]

Thanks to everyone for the reporting, discussion, and suggestions.

Matt / Eric, PM me your address and I'll send you some sweet TMWA swag for making Top 8 in a 24+ player event with TMWA!

I like that Hide/Seek is worth looking at again.

I'm not a big fan of any creature that just does damage without being ridiculously efficient at doing that (e.g. Tarmogoyf).

Path to Exile could replace Swords to Plowshares in decks where Mindcensor is present and mana denial is not a theme.

[Stormanimagus]

Thanks to everyone for the reporting, discussion, and suggestions.

Matt / Eric, PM me your address and I'll send you some sweet TMWA swag for making Top 8 in a 24+ player event with TMWA!

I like that Hide/Seek is worth looking at again.

I'm not a big fan of any creature that just does damage without being ridiculously efficient at doing that (e.g. Tarmogoyf).

Path to Exile could replace Swords to Plowshares in decks where Mindcensor is present and mana denial is not a theme.

I agree That Hide / Seek is definitely some good, and would like to propose a list that I think could do well in the current metagame:

TMWA

Land (18):
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
2 Badlands
2 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
4 Null Rod

Enchantments (3):
3 Seal Of Primordium

Creatures (15):
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants (9):
3 Swords To Plowshares
4 Hide // Seek
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Rack And Ruin

Sorceries (5):
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress - (or Thoughtseize if you don't feel the 3 STP can do the job)

SB
1 Seal Of Primordium
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Rack And Ruin
4 Extirpate
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[Myriad Games]

Do you need that much enchantment removal (Hide and Seal of Primordium) or could you replace the Seals in the main with Tin-Street Hooligans for a higher creature count?

Artifact Mutation is another option for a singleton artifact removal spell in the board.

[Stormanimagus]

Do you need that much enchantment removal (Hide and Seal of Primordium) or could you replace the Seals in the main with Tin-Street Hooligans for a higher creature count?

Artifact Mutation is another option for a singleton artifact removal spell in the board.

True. It is actually a strangely good way to deal with Colossus no? Because you'd get the 11 dudes to block with?

[Sporkcore]

I was wondering if anyone was looking at Burning-Tree Shaman to fit in a R/G TMWA list? When I was playing R/G beatz during the Gush/Stax days, he was a beating. Now a lot of people are playing cards that need to be activated multiple times (Key/Vault, Top, Master T) that it could be worth it as both a beater and a way to get through extra damage.

[Troy_Costisick]

Do you need that much enchantment removal (Hide and Seal of Primordium) or could you replace the Seals in the main with Tin-Street Hooligans for a higher creature count?

Artifact Mutation is another option for a singleton artifact removal spell in the board.

True. It is actually a strangely good way to deal with Colossus no? Because you'd get the 11 dudes to block with?

Yeah, you do.  But since DSC has trample, you're still going to take 10 damage.  The real advantage is you can attack back with 11 dudes.  Since you're playing an aggro deck, hopefully our 11 1/1's are more scary than your opponents 1 11/11.

Peace,

-Troy

[d0rsal]

Do you need that much enchantment removal (Hide and Seal of Primordium) or could you replace the Seals in the main with Tin-Street Hooligans for a higher creature count?

Artifact Mutation is another option for a singleton artifact removal spell in the board.

True. It is actually a strangely good way to deal with Colossus no? Because you'd get the 11 dudes to block with?

Yeah, you do.  But since DSC has trample, you're still going to take 10 damage.  The real advantage is you can attack back with 11 dudes.  Since you're playing an aggro deck, hopefully our 11 1/1's are more scary than your opponents 1 11/11.

would you get the 11 dudes since DSC cant be destroyed? 

[Troy_Costisick]

Do you need that much enchantment removal (Hide and Seal of Primordium) or could you replace the Seals in the main with Tin-Street Hooligans for a higher creature count?

Artifact Mutation is another option for a singleton artifact removal spell in the board.

True. It is actually a strangely good way to deal with Colossus no? Because you'd get the 11 dudes to block with?

Yeah, you do.  But since DSC has trample, you're still going to take 10 damage.  The real advantage is you can attack back with 11 dudes.  Since you're playing an aggro deck, hopefully our 11 1/1's are more scary than your opponents 1 11/11.

would you get the 11 dudes since DSC cant be destroyed? 

Yes.  The artifact being destoyed and putting a number of 1/1 equal to the artifact's CMC are independant effects.  Same can be said for Viashino Heretic.  You can't destroy DSC with him, but he still does the 11 damage.

[Stormanimagus]

Do you need that much enchantment removal (Hide and Seal of Primordium) or could you replace the Seals in the main with Tin-Street Hooligans for a higher creature count?

Artifact Mutation is another option for a singleton artifact removal spell in the board.

True. It is actually a strangely good way to deal with Colossus no? Because you'd get the 11 dudes to block with?

Yeah, you do.  But since DSC has trample, you're still going to take 10 damage.  The real advantage is you can attack back with 11 dudes.  Since you're playing an aggro deck, hopefully our 11 1/1's are more scary than your opponents 1 11/11.

Peace,

-Troy

How do you take 10 damage when you block with 11 1/1's. All the damage must be assigned to deal lethal to them first. Hence 0 damage.

[policehq]

But then Artifact Mutation is just a bad cantrip, or a Time Walk that allows the opponent to untap, draw, play spells, and attack with other creatures (if applicable). The threat of Artifact Mutation is similar to Viashino Heretic against Darksteel Colossus: you won't destroy it, but you're going to deal a lot of damage to your opponent. Also, it's instant speed, so you can cast it after they've played Tinker and go to town.

[smasher]

Just Finished up with a 20 man tournament in top 4

Here is the newest version I'm running

TMWA

BEATERS
4x Dark confidant
4x Ethersworn canonist
3x Jotun grunt
3x Aven mindcensor
1x Goblin welder
1x Gorilla shaman

SPELLS
4x Red elemental blast
3x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
3x Null Rod
2x Hide/Seek
2x Swords to plowshares
1x Path to exile
1x Diabolic edict
1x Vampiric tutor
1x Demonic tutor
1x Extirpate

MANA
1x Black Lotus
3x Mox Jet/Pearl/Ruby
4x Bloodstained mire
1x Flooded Strand
1x Windswept Heath
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
2x Badlands
2x Scrubland
1x Plateau
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Plains

Sideboard
3x Extirpate
1x Pyroblast
2x Hide/Seek
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Engineered explosives
3x Grim Lavamancer
1x Diabolic edict
2x Kataki, Wars wage

Grim Lavamancer was a true pimp out of the board vs other fishy decks. brought him in for 2 matchups but only saw him vs one of my opponents. Going to leave him in as a 3 of for now.

Engineered explosives feels kind of random. I brought it in a few times, vs oath for example and in during fish matchups but I wasn't impressed. Even though I didnt draw it, I felt as though it would have been a fairly dead draw, or a 1 for 1 at best. It might stay in the board just because it is still pretty solid vs dredge deck tokens and empty the warrens.

Extirpate is just sick, I boarded in to 3-4 of them in almost every game. I recall only once not bringing in extras due to lack of stuff to board out for them. Extirpate saved me twice from Goblin welder tricks and nailed stuff like force of will to let me resolve threats. Wrecked a world gorger dragon deck with it as well. As good as the card is I think I'll stick with just 1 in the maindeck and save the others for when I know exactly how to cripple the opponent in games 2,3. Will keep this card as a 4 of due to its awesomeness vs dredge and overall usefulness.

Hide/Seek continues to be an awesome card. Considering boosting it to a 3 of maindeck and cutting the one left in the board to try something new.

I didn't face any Shop decks but I'm a little concerned that I don't have enough hate for them. Hide/Seek is tough to cast after a resolved sphere/thorn. Kataki seems good but as a 2 of and the fact they will pay for at least their 2 best artifacts in play it seems like it does too little too late. Leaning towards a couple shattering sprees in the board since it also deals with a chalice of the void which just wrecks me.

Vs Blue decks I have had a tough time boarding anything in as the maindeck is so solid vs them already. I Will probably run 3 red blasts and 1 pyroblast maindeck and cut the pyroblast from the board to free up another slot.

Jotun Grunt needs to be a 4 of. It's my only defense against R/G beats style decks. He also draws a counterspell often enough that I don't mind seeing 2 of them in a row. He just does so much for the deck right now...helping vs dredge, grindstone, tarmogoyf, hindering yawgmoths will, laughing at old man of the sea, recycling good cards through fetching/shuffling and the clock he provides is very nice. With any other 2 power beater he is approximately a 3 turn clock

I'm still happy with the 1x Gorilla shaman/ Goblin welder configuration. Both of them have always been good whenever I see them. Tutor for Goblin welder helps vs shops as well. They also increase my turn one plays if I don't see a duress/thoughtseize but still have a keepable hand.

Manabase has been running fine. Love having 1 of each basic, Would play a couple more if I wasn't in 3 colors already.

R/G beats style decks are a real headache for me. Something needs to be done about this. That is my main concern right now in fixing the deck up.

Aven Mindcensor has been so good that I wouldn't mind seeing it as a 4 of as well. The EOT flash it into play lets me hold back mana for Rebs, swords, Extirpates, Hide/seeks and still play a threat if they had no play. In combination with ethersworn canonist its pretty much a hardlock vs a lot of decks

Ethersworn canonist is incredible with the high number of instants I'm playing; allowing me to respond to my opponents plays with one of mine to guarantee it resolves has been critical to the success of the deck.

Definately a fun time playing this deck as I like using the attack phase for the win. Give this deck a try If you have a blue heavy meta game.

I'll give an update after I rework the side and maindeck for the changes I'm considering.

Peace out
Smasher

[neotrophy]

Congrats, smasher.  Must say that yours is the first build of TMWA that I've seen that actually looks focused and dangerous, rather than a janky pile that relies on a fair chunk of luck, and the result seems to indicate that it's a pretty solid deck.

A singleton Mox Monkey worries me a little, but I can't see where you'd fit more.  The thing that really strikes me as just not right is the lack of the fourth copies of Null Rod and Wasteland.  Wasteland is pretty strong at the moment, even if players do seem to be waking up and playing more basics, and Null Rod is one of the premier foils to the hottest win condition going around.  Playing less than the limit, particularly of Null Rod feels like opening yourself up to an unnecessary world of hurt, in what otherwise appears to be a pretty strong deck.

[smasher]

Neotrophy, Thanks for the reply.

I agree on the 4x null statement.

Null Rod and wasteland have both been 4 ofs in the recent past. Cut 1 of each basically to try out new stuff. Getting null rod back to 4 is something I'd like to do soon. I think I cut 1 for a goblin welder a few weeks back. The welder is actually impressing me the more I play him. The ability to turn moxes into null rods and canonists that die or get countered is very good as well as the protection it provides vs a tinker. I've actually been considering a new build that would be red heavy featuring multiple goblin welders.

Wasteland is one of my all time favorite cards and featured in every deck I run. I do miss the 4th copy vs dredge and shops. Outside of those matches I am just not sure if the 4th wasteland is better than another disruption card. I'll have to give this one some more thought as this card has bounced between 3 and 4 copies more than any other card in the list.

-Smasher

[Myriad Games]

Congratulations on the victory, Smasher, and thanks for the report!

Extirpates might be better in the main as opposed to Blasts, given their effectiveness with the discard you're running.

Send me your address and I'll send you some TMWA swag for your victory!

[smasher]

BEATERS
4x Dark confidant
4x Ethersworn canonist
4x Jotun grunt
4x Aven mindcensor
1x Gorilla shaman

SPELLS
3x Red elemental blast
1x Pyroblast
3x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
4x Null Rod
2x Hide/Seek
1x Swords to plowshares
1x Path to exile
1x Diabolic edict
1x Vampiric tutor
1x Demonic tutor

MANA
1x Black Lotus
3x Mox Jet/Pearl/Ruby
4x Bloodstained mire
1x Flooded Strand
1x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
2x Badlands
2x Scrubland
1x Plateau
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Plains

Sideboard
4x Extirpate
1x Hide/Seek
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Engineered explosives
3x Grim Lavamancer
1x Diabolic edict
2x Shattering spree

This is my newest list, Changes from last weeks list include

Maindeck

+1 Jotun Grunt
+1 Aven Mindcensor
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Wasteland

-1 Goblin Welder
-1 Red Elemental blast
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Swords to plowshares
-1 Extirpate

Sideboard

+2 Shattering spree
+2 Engineered exlposives
+1 Extirpate

-1 Pyroblast
-1 Hide/Seek
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-2 Kataki, Wars-wage

Shattering spree got boarded in enough that I'll continue to keep it around for further testing

I'm up to 3 engineered explosives now in an attempt to deal with 1 drop aggro decks and as a bonus it is more nice ichorid token hate.

extirpate is a 4 of in the board after cutting the one in maindeck. Vs Ichorid I just smash them between ee's, extirpates, swords, path to exile, Hide/seek, grim lavamancer, diabolic edict, wastes, strip mine. I have so many ways to deal with bridges in the yard and extirpate on bazaar or dredge 5,6's. Seek and swords/path to rfg ichorids. Grim lavamancer and diabolic edict are nice ways to kill a dude of my own to rfg bridges. I don't think there is a hand that is good enough to beat my hate since I dont really lose much to there disruption other than a creature to a contagion which will trigger their bridges removal. Jotun grunt to mop up whats left in the yard such as dread returns and cabal therapies.

3/1 REB/Pyroblast configuration maindeck to work around extirpate and meddling mages. Both of which see play in my metagame
1/1/1 swords/path/edict for the same reason.

Maindeck changes are more focused on the mana denial strategy more than ever with 4 aven mindcensor, 4 null rod, 4 wasteland, 1 strip mine. 1 gorilla shaman. I've been known to hide a relevant artifact mana as well if the situation is right.

Would like to fit in another gorilla shaman but I'm going to test the list as is for a bit longer. Still want a 3rd Hide/Seek maindeck too.

Will probably work in a balance to the sideboard as well for aggro.

I have done a decent job addressing the aggro matchup but I am still fighting an uphill battle. I have been leaning towards running a couple Nyxathid in the sideboard. He is junk in blue deck matchups but bringing it in Vs aggro seems like a real beating. If I test him out I'll probably up my duress/thoughtseize count by a couple in the maindeck

Demonic consultation has been bugging me a lot. I really want to play it but I have recently been working the deck to deal with extirpate and meddling mage. If those 2 quit seeing play I'll redo the list to work with D. Consultation. The idea of instant speed go get Red elemental blast or hide/seek to get a response to my opponent sounds nice.

Is enlightened Tutor good enough right now? Prior to boarding It grabs me null rod and ethersworn canonist, both really nice lock pieces in a number of matchups. after boarding it gives me engineered explosives and makes the 1 of jitte a little better for the aggro matchup.

Preacher is another card I have been giving some thought to. After playing against old man of the sea and seeing how good he is Preacher came to my mind. He works against Tinkered robots as well as decent in the aggro match if they dont have mogg fanatic.

Any opinion on the 2 new suggested tutors is appreciated.

[Almighty]

I ran this build to a 3-2 finish yesterday

1 Strip Mine
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Glowrider
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Null Rod
3 Kird Ape
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Mox Pearl*
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby*
1 Mox Emerald*
1 Black Lotus
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Gaea’s Blessing


As I mentioned on the BMORE thread, my losses were due to having inexperience in the Belcher Matchup and having an improperly configured sideboard against my Tezz opponent. None of my match wins were even close, really. I was blowing people out in every game I won. I feel that this deck is powerful enough to win in any given field.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

Demonic consultation has been bugging me a lot. I really want to play it but I have recently been working the deck to deal with extirpate and meddling mage. If those 2 quit seeing play I'll redo the list to work with D. Consultation. The idea of instant speed go get Red elemental blast or hide/seek to get a response to my opponent sounds nice.

Is enlightened Tutor good enough right now? Prior to boarding It grabs me null rod and ethersworn canonist, both really nice lock pieces in a number of matchups. after boarding it gives me engineered explosives and makes the 1 of jitte a little better for the aggro matchup.

...

Any opinion on the 2 new suggested tutors is appreciated.

I think both tutors could serve your deck well but you'd have to adjust your deck to make better use of them for either to be worthwhile.

I have never been a huge fan of Demonic Consultation myself, though I can see it being potentially a huge play for your deck in the right situation. The examples you mention leave me a little weary as you only have three and two copies respectively of the cards you mentioned and that could easily end up burning you in the end if they're really far down in your library when Demonic Consultation resolves. I think its best in a deck with a lot of four-ofs as its primary targets.

Enlightened Tutor has been a really strong card in previous builds of TMWA and can certainly be again. Most of the older lists had several one-ofs main deck to make it versatile enough to not be a dead draw game one versus something in the metagame. I use it in HSC and have six functionally different targets for it in the main whereas you currently only have three. That's enough to make it a consideration but just barely.

[smasher]

I think both tutors could serve your deck well but you'd have to adjust your deck to make better use of them for either to be worthwhile.

I have never been a huge fan of Demonic Consultation myself, though I can see it being potentially a huge play for your deck in the right situation. The examples you mention leave me a little weary as you only have three and two copies respectively of the cards you mentioned and that could easily end up burning you in the end if they're really far down in your library when Demonic Consultation resolves. I think its best in a deck with a lot of four-ofs as its primary targets.

Enlightened Tutor has been a really strong card in previous builds of TMWA and can certainly be again. Most of the older lists had several one-ofs main deck to make it versatile enough to not be a dead draw game one versus something in the metagame. I use it in HSC and have six functionally different targets for it in the main whereas you currently only have three. That's enough to make it a consideration but just barely.

What where some of your targets when you ran an enlightened tutor?

If I run D. Consultation I will be playing more 4 ofs. As it is I am playing around extirpate and meddling mage so I can't really give that one a try right now.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

What where some of your targets when you ran an enlightened tutor?

Seal of Cleansing
Moat
Tormod's Crypt
Engineered Explosives
Sensei's Divining Top
Artifact Mana (Lotus, on-color Moxes & Sol Ring)

plus two Pithing Needles and an additional Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard.

I've seen other builds of TMWA that have run Pyrostatic Pillar, Crucible of Worlds, Genju of the Spires, Seal of Fire, and Thorn of Amethyst to name a few based on previous metagames.

If I run D. Consultation I will be playing more 4 ofs. As it is I am playing around extirpate and meddling mage so I can't really give that one a try right now.

I'm not sure if your concern over Extirpate and Meddling Mage are justified at this time. It may be something specific to your area that I'm not aware of but I think all of the builds of TMWA have sufficient threats to be able to still put away your opponent even if you lost one of them to Extirpate or be cut off via Meddling Mage. Meddling Mage should be easier to deal with between the Red Blasts and the creature kill you run.

[AmbivalentDuck]

@Almighty
Consider Vigor and cards with triggers like its over Gaea's Blessing.  It's not inconceivable to cast and resolve it in the aggro mirror.

Also, I strongly recommend a *variety* of Ichorid hate to dodge early Cabal Therapies.  Even 2x Relic, 1x Tormod's, _x Mogg Fanatic.

[Myriad Games]

Congratulations on another strong Ponies TMWA build, Almighty. Glad to hear the deck performed well for you.

[Almighty]

@Almighty
Consider Vigor and cards with triggers like its over Gaea's Blessing.  It's not inconceivable to cast and resolve it in the aggro mirror.

Also, I strongly recommend a *variety* of Ichorid hate to dodge early Cabal Therapies.  Even 2x Relic, 1x Tormod's, _x Mogg Fanatic.

What would Vigor do that my deck doesn't already? I tend to steamroll aggro.

Ichorid can't cast Therapy with a Thorn effect on the board. I'm not kidding when I say that Ichorid is a difficult match to lose. You have to play very poorly to not beat it.

If this deck had a gaping hole it would be that there are few answers to Leviathan. Tariff? Deathtouch creature?

[nineisnoone]

I had tried out Meekstone in a Bomberman list.
It actually works better against Leviathan than DSC because the additional turn it takes Leviathan to win means that if they attack, then bounce it to get an untap and attack again, you survive.  They need at least 2 bounces or a bounce + a counter spell.  Downside is you can't run 'Goyf.

[AmbivalentDuck]

What would Vigor do that my deck doesn't already? I tend to steamroll aggro.

Nothing.  The question is what it does that Gaea's Blessing doesn't.  At sorcery speed, Blessing isn't a serious threat to most decks that rely on the graveyard.  It's basically only run as a foil to Painter.  Point is, you can run any card with an incarnation or DSC-like triggered ability and still survive Painter.  Unlike Blessing, double DSC/Progenitus is immune to stifle and leyline, while the incarnations (and some cards like them) have fat butts that can walk over opposing goyfs.  Also, Natural Order as a green Tinker for Progenitus is currently winning Legacy tournaments.  Point is, Blessing is a dead answer to painter when drawn, other cards still do things that can matter when drawn.

Ichorid can't cast Therapy with a Thorn effect on the board. I'm not kidding when I say that Ichorid is a difficult match to lose. You have to play very poorly to not beat it.

Threat diversity still doesn't hurt.  And most modern Ichy builds are mana-ed.

If this deck had a gaping hole it would be that there are few answers to Leviathan. Tariff? Deathtouch creature?

Serenity kills Inky and does splash damage to Stax and Oath as a SB card.

[Almighty]

Nothing.  The question is what it does that Gaea's Blessing doesn't.  At sorcery speed, Blessing isn't a serious threat to most decks that rely on the graveyard.  It's basically only run as a foil to Painter.  Point is, you can run any card with an incarnation or DSC-like triggered ability and still survive Painter.  Unlike Blessing, double DSC/Progenitus is immune to stifle and leyline, while the incarnations (and some cards like them) have fat butts that can walk over opposing goyfs.  Also, Natural Order as a green Tinker for Progenitus is currently winning Legacy tournaments.  Point is, Blessing is a dead answer to painter when drawn, other cards still do things that can matter when drawn.

Okay, that makes sense. If I'm drawing games, I force them to beat me with the rest of their deck, which I am quite strong against.

Ichorid can't cast Therapy with a Thorn effect on the board. I'm not kidding when I say that Ichorid is a difficult match to lose. You have to play very poorly to not beat it.

Threat diversity still doesn't hurt.  And most modern Ichy builds are mana-ed.[/quote]I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I am of the opinion that I need no further help to beat Ichorid. I peel extremely far ahead when i drop a thorn, and I usually force them into a game of attrition should I follow that up with a strip. It is very hard for Ichorid to win if you start forcing them to draw cards naturaly. It is usually at this point that I would crypt them and seal up the game. Trick is, Teeg locks up that game to, as does subsequent thorn effects.

Serenity kills Inky and does splash damage to Stax and Oath as a SB card.

I like serenity as a possible answer. Actually, it may be my favorite answer yet. It clunks up my deck, but the 7/11 is really hard to answer to.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I am of the opinion that I need no further help to beat Ichorid. I peel extremely far ahead when i drop a thorn, and I usually force them into a game of attrition should I follow that up with a strip. It is very hard for Ichorid to win if you start forcing them to draw cards naturaly. It is usually at this point that I would crypt them and seal up the game. Trick is, Teeg locks up that game to, as does subsequent thorn effects.

Doesn't matter.  You're still better off with a mix of Relics and Crypts than Relics alone.  Also, consider that Null Rod turns both off.  One of your best answers to combo stops your answer to their Yawg Wills.  At least with Crypt, you can sac it in response to your Rod and not have to leave mana open on subsequent turns.