Aggro & Control, the real meaning: Mr. Gaddock

[nineisnoone]

This list feels pretty much final for me

3   Windswept Heath
3   Polluted Delta
4   Savannah
3   Tundra   
1   Tropical Island
1   Plains
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Black Lotus   

4   Ethersworn Canonist
4   Tarmogoyf   
4   Meddling Mage   
3   True Believer
3   Gaddock Teeg
2   Vexing Shusher
2   Waterfront Bouncer
3   Itcatian Javelineers
2   Children of Korlis
 
4   AEther Vial
4   Aura of Silence
3   Skullclamp
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Enlightened Tutor
1   Time Walk

SIDEBOARD
3   Pithing Needle
4   Emerald Charm
4   Swords to Plowshares
4   Orim's Chant

Javelineer - Can't believe I forgot about this.  Gives you the edge in 'Goyf battles.  Hits Confidant and Welder (namely the two creatures who don't have to attack).  Blocks and trades with bears.  Removes bridges.  "Synergizes" with Skullclamp.
Bouncer - As soon as I started using this on my own blockers, it's been solid against aggro.  Excellent against Oath and Tinker.
Aura of Silence - If it could bounce a DSC, it would pretty much answer everything. 

Pithing Needle - Randomly amazing
Emerald Charm - It deals with problem enchantments and also untaps your creatures for blockers or Aether Vial.  Could see this being cut for something else though
Chant - I wound it to be a better SB card.  Game 1 on draw it doesn't get you that much, and there is always game 2 and 3 to make up for it later.
Swords - Maindeck I have enough ways to deal with creatures, between Javelineers, Skullclamp, and Bouncer.  Like chant, these more than make up for it game 2 and 3.

[brianpk80]

This list feels pretty much final for me

I like the creature base and the thought put into its interactions with the deck as a whole (for instance, use a Javelineer, and then they are clamp fodder).  My concern is the mana base.  I see only 9 renewable sources of mana.  With the lack of basics, Wasteland will be extremely harsh and the list seems to be too dependent on AEther Vial.  Vial is the backbone of the deck indeed, but given it won't show up in your opening hand all the time, there should be enough mana to account for that.  At the very minimum, I would drop one creature, add a Plains, and go up to 4 of each dual, but 3 of each fetchland. 

[d0rsal]

@ nineisnoone:

why the polluted delta's & not flooded strand's?  it was also mentioned that if aura of silence could bounce a DSC it would pretty much answer everything, what about oblivion ring in the aura slots as a catch all answer to anything that becomes problematic.  i like the 8 fetchlands, it should help thin the deck down & increase your chances of drawing business, but 8 fetches vs only 6 lands you could fetch...?  i question the true believers, are they even necessary w/ cannonist & teeg's?  how are the Children of Korlis working out for you?  i'd think that a main deck Jitte would give you more options & still fill the life-gainer role.  anways, just some observations/thoughts from a T1 noob.

[nineisnoone]

My concern is the mana base.  I see only 9 renewable sources of mana....
At the very minimum, I would drop one creature, add a Plains, and go up to 4 of each dual, but 3 of each fetchland.

Thanks for the advice.  Mana bases are always a headache for me.  I should have added "except the mana base."

why the polluted delta's & not flooded strand's?

 

That's a typo.  I'm just so used to putting Polluted Deltas in everything.   

it was also mentioned that if aura of silence could bounce a DSC it would pretty much answer everything, what about oblivion ring in the aura slots as a catch all answer to anything that becomes problematic.

But Oblivion Ring doesn't work in a proactive manner, i.e. I can play Aura of Silence first and prevent them from playing their spells.  Also Aura hits certain storm paths, Black Lotus, Chain/Hurkyl's/Rebuild to replaying Moxen, Nercopotence, and Bargain.  You loose more than you gain by playing Oblivion Ring.

i question the true believers, are they even necessary w/ cannonist & teeg's?  how are the Children of Korlis working out for you?  i'd think that a main deck Jitte would give you more options & still fill the life-gainer role.  anways, just some observations/thoughts from a T1 noob.

"Necessary" is a tricky statement.  There is a certain degree of redundancy I wanted from the deck, which is really just a personal preference.  However, neither Cannonist nor Teeg stops Intuition, Grindstone, or Thoughtseize or things of that sort.  So while it serves a redundant role, there are specific niches where it can only address.

Korlis is there more as an Anti-Tendrils card then for generically as life gain.  Jitte can't do that.  I put a couple in the main deck because I wanted a little bit more than 4x Chant against storm post-board.  Plus, it's useful against aggro.  Let them swing at you for non-lethal damage, and then Vial in Korlis.  That's a better pseudo Time Walk than Orim's Chant is.  Plus, I've just never really been successful playing Jitte.

[nineisnoone]

Oh crap.  I clicked quote rather than modify....

[neotrophy]

I would just like to reiterate brianpk's big props for Gorilla Shaman.  Also, as anyone who's ever play it in Slaver will tell you, it's seriously vicious when combined with welder when your opponent plays moxen. 

[Guli]

Aggro Control, the meaning, part 2

I think it is time to reflect after all the exploration. A lot of good suggestions were made. Both creative and innovative feedback are to be found in this thread.

To keep the focus of the topic I think it is wise to repeat the goal of this fish theme. The approach is rather rare. Sure there are decks that use cards like Mage/TeeG and Believer but mostly alone and not to pursue the spell denial strategy but just as one offs, which is also strong. The idea is to directly deny key enemy spells (mana denial also denies spells but indirectly, used by almost all fish out there) by using powerful bears with game changing effects when they hit the board. It must be pointed out though that the current list packs Gorilla Shaman. And that is a form of mana denial. But it is also a form of card advantage and artifact control. It eats more than just moxes. The combination of Goblin Welder and Gorilla Shaman and the advantages that they provide to the deck is very satisfying. Tinker is no longer an escape route for the control or combo player. It just doesn't work against a deck that has 9 cards that directly address the problem. And I am not counting Shaman and Mage. So your only route is go for mass/spot removal and combo. Both issues have been dealt with as well.

Skullclamp is strangely extremely synergistic with Aether Vial. You need a way to cycle your cards (creatures). I underestimated the card advantage clamp can give a deck. Two cards is a lot and when you cycle an extra canonist or believer you get 4 cards. There is a point were you simply overwhelm your opponent with clamp/vial. This can come fast but it doesn't need to. It is more of a long term survival plan that kicks in after those first turns. You no longer will sit duck when you play your hand and go top deck mode. Another thing clamp gives is a clock. Three damage is a significant difference.

The deck has answers against aggro, artifacts and combo. Well magic is about those types of cards. So if the deck can survive the early game it is extremely hard to beat. It will swallow your creatures with bouncer/drake, take out your artifacts with shaman/welder or lock you out of the game with teeg/keeper. Is this deck complete? Of course not, there is always room for new additions, tweaks and improvement in general. For example, the count of bouncer/drake can be decreased to 2x/2x and you can add 2x Azorius guildmage. That would also work and give you a little bit more tools to work with at the cost of consistency. Azorius does what bouncer/drake does, it is creature control. Maybe Azorius instead of bouncer is a better idea. It would change some things tho. You cant cycle it with 1 clamp, it needs 3 mana to work and the synergy with drake is not optimal but it is still present. It can be used instantly but it doesn't remove the permanent of the board. There are ups and downs and it is up to the pilot to choose.

What won't change is the fundamentals of the deck. Cards like Aether Vial, Gaddock TeeG and True Believer are what define this deck. Meddling Mage is special. It only hits 1 card but it can be very crucial. Examples are; Rebuild, Pyroclasm, YWill, Tinker, Oath, Dark Ritual, Mana Drain, Tangle Wire, Triskelon, Null Rod, ... Meddling Mage fills up some of the holes in our fishing net.

I am not a quick list poster but I can imagine that it might not be obvious to go find the list in the opening post of this thread somewhere under the article. So I will repeat the list for the people who are just tuning in or do not want to go look for a list to make sense out of the things I wrote. I also changed the name of the deck. It is not meant to be prestigious but more like the best of the best. You have to agree that 80% the creatures in this deck have pr oven themselves over the years. It is an elite squad of utility bears designed to work well together and to outplay one of the most common theme these days: Combo/Control

Spartan Fish by Kadir N 'aka' Guli

Mana base
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
2x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
2x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Plateau
1x Glimmervoid
2x City of Brass

Main creature base
4x Meddling Mage
3x Gaddock TeeG
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x True Believer

Counter & protection
4x Sylvan Safekeeper

Artifact control
3x Goblin Welder
3x Gorilla Shaman

creature control
3x Gilded Drake
3x Waterfront Bouncer

Draw & Utility
1x Ancestral recall
4x Skullclamp

Tempo & Counter
4x Æther Vial
1x Time Walk

[Dr.KnowMaD]

As always I like your deck and it looks to be getting quite tuned.  I like builds that started off to specifically to hate storm (if it hasn't been apparent, I play storm competitively, typically).  That and I have built things (pets) to give myself the hardest time I could in testing, hence my internist.

What was your answer to the mass removal that's three or less again?  Skullclamp and more creatures?  I think that's what you said, which is fine seeing how you probably don't see much of it anyway. Plus what would be better filling the slots anyways?

The single Glimmervoid?  Rebuild is the pits.

Dr.KnowMaD

Where has your testing taken place, workstation, play groups, tournaments, and how has it been doing (besides I like it and it is doing well)

[Guli]

I like the deck, it works. But still i am looking for ways to make it more appealing. I was thinking about safekeeper. I am very found of them by now, I know how and when to use them. But still maybe there is something better and basically does the same thing in effect. One of the reasons safekeeper is on board is, as stated before, to stop the bounce against any form of combo. So its preemptive. I was thinking of other cards that can take care of the spot removal and do other things as well. It won't be a permanent solution like safekeeper but it would still do the job and maybe more. I was thinking of:


Not necessarily the card itself but the effect. In a form of a creature this gives us the next possibilities.



One of the pro arguments is that it will make your meddling mage a lot stronger. (in some cases it will give you a decisive advantage)
Another argument is that you don't have to take out the cards that threaten your creatures you can go straight for a condition.
You will know what he is holding in his hand (if you are a deck designer you have seen a lot cards/decks)

The downside is that cards with the purpose of extract will have no effect against some decks. But that was never a real problem for this deck. I have ways to cycle my dead cards.

How would this idea change the deck?
Is their room for this idea?
If we have to make room, what goes out? Will the change make the deck stronger or weaker?
Is it possible to go for 5 mana base and use Hide/Seek? (and maybe even confidants)
...

Guli

[Darkenslight]

Wouild Mindlock orb be a viable card for the deck?  It's a 3U artifact that says players can't Search libraries.  Is the cost too much?

Alternatively, thinking about the search thing, if you had any problems, I'd suggest Bitter orDeal, but the B in the cost is a problem.

[Guli]

Wouild Mindlock orb be a viable card for the deck?  It's a 3U artifact that says players can't Search libraries.  Is the cost too much?

Alternatively, thinking about the search thing, if you had any problems, I'd suggest Bitter orDeal, but the B in the cost is a problem.

Orb doesn't really go well with Gaddock TeeG. But i can weld it in but i think that is way too hard for this deck. I rather play Aven Mindcensor if I want that effect.

The black is a problem but there are other more severe issues. How do you want to play it early on to make it effective and fast enough? With clamp the gravestorm factor could become nice mid game, but then it might be less relevant.

I am looking for ways to replace Safekeeper, but I am perfectly comfortable with him so it is really not a problem. If I do change that slot I want it to be worth it.

[nineisnoone]

Extract and Rootwater Thief are both bad cards.  Extract just doesn't do enough.  Rootwater Thief is a whopping 4 mana (sometimes 5) and a turn get 1 card.  The damage is pretty much irrelevant.  Grimoire Thief is modestly better (mostly because it's 2/2), but first of it's  straining the mana base further.  I tested it a little bit and it was just too random for me.

I've always been a fan of Hide/Seek, but primarily for the Art/Ench hate more than the Extract effect.  But it's a very playable card.  But I wouldn't see it replacing Safekeeper, because they are played for different reasons.

[Guli]

I don't believe in 'bad cards'. 'Whole is greater than the sum'

Still, i think it is hard to implement the extract idea without damaging other parts of the deck. For now the idea goes in the closet.

I don't want to settle, there must always be room for improvement. How about the mana base? There are times i could use another basic, specifically and island. Can I risk another basic with 4 colors? Or maybe play with zero basics and play with more City/Glimmer. This is really not just a remark. Even if I have answers to Tinker, Sundering Titan is really a pain to my mana base. One basic plain isn't going to cut it against wasteland/strip anyway. It all comes down to whether I have my vial up or not. So perhaps it is wiser to go all in with the non basic lands and go for a full multicolored mana base. If I can completely make color irrelevant because by being able to produce all colors at all times than I will add cards like Demonic consultation (would be extremely powerful with vial or BE the 5th vial), Demonic Tutor and access to black creatures like Confidant,Sculler or even things like cabal therapy.

Thoughts?

Guli

[Dr.KnowMaD]

I already said that I think the Safekeeper is a good card for this build an think you should keep it for now, maybe something will get printed but every thing I saw so far looks subpar.  It does everything you want from it if it's not to late and Safekeeper is easy to clamp.

My latest wonder is how are the True Believers?  They mostly just helped against storm (I know there are other uses, hence the mostly) when I used them.  If that is the case I find one of the most annoying strategies for me to play against is sphere tech.  Have you tried Glowriders?  Seems like they fit the bill, have good synergy, and cover more ground.

You still haven't explain the single Glimervoid.  I would expect a true fish player to know how to build a good mana base so.. you must know, fill me in cause I still don't understand.
Then I'll think more of that mater.
                     
                                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                                              Peace,
                                                                                                                                                           Dr.KnowMaD

[Guli]

the glimmervoid is a 3th city, think of it as a Tolarian. I can support a single glimmervoid with the amount of artifacts. I have no problems casting my cards. But I do need vial or clamp against wasteland to find more land or vial everything in. Prision usually doesn't have that much board control while they are busy shutting you down. In between there is the common jugger but that is really no problem for this deck IF i have the vial. One of the reasons I added the red shaman and welder is to have additional cards to strengthen the shop/stax/prison match. The true believer is just a 2/2 vs shop and could be sided out for gleeful/needle/krosan in game 2. Depending on the matchup your creatures get priority to one another. You want to cast down believer last against artifact.dec, same goes for canonist.

Priority in order vs shop: Vial, Welder, Shaman, TeeG, Mage, Clamp, Drake, Bouncer, Safekeeper (could help if they didn't waste too much land, triskelon, duplicant, ...)

That is how I play out this deck, and the more you play the better choices you make. You do have lot's of routes with so many creatures with all kinds of abilities.

I do am considering more main deck artifact control and I have 2 strong arguments to support this.
1. Null Rod, Needle has to be dealt with
2. Chalice@1 is a strong turn 1 play against this deck. It won't stop the essential part of the deck but it will slow me down a lot. And Chalice is mostly used by shop so I really need my 1cc spells.

Some bonus i get: A little extra mana denial. Shaman/Welder is good but so would the extra artifact hate+Welder be, you need an artifact in their grave to start some welder tricks. Random artifacts like Jitte, SoFi, ... can be dealt with.

My latest wonder is how are the True Believers?

They belong in a vial deck at least as much as  teeg or mage because when vialed in it can be a counter to targeted effects. (surprise factor)
I think i explained the issue of variety before but I ll try to clarify my reasoning again. I rather have 1 believer and 1 canonist than 2 canonist. They both have a disruptive effect and can be categorized as anti-storm  but they both cover a lot more than just storm. And together they become a wall. Canonist is good when you want your recall to really pass through. You just wait till they play something and you can draw your 3 cards. Believer + Safekeeper are nuts in a lot of match ups. I think x2 is not enough so I go for 3x each. Canonist has 4 slots because of the easy casting cost and its a good turn 1 drop. It will buy you the time to gather information and play out the correct order of cards. And it is weldable. Mage is 4x which is obvious, can't have enough of them. Teeg and Believer are both 3x because of the same argument of variety and legendary factor. All other cards get 3 slots but more on that:

welder+shaman and drake+bouncer can be reduced to 2x each but then 2 additional creatures should be added that will serve the same purpose but do it in another fashion. I gave the example of
2x drake+ 2x bouncer + 2x azorius
instead 3x drake+ 3x bouncer. Following the same principle there might be a solution to the chalice/Rod problem.

2x Welder + 2x Shaman + 2x Viridian Zealot/Hearth Kami/Tin Street Hooligan/Goblin Tinkerer

As you can see you can play with the slots and configure different creature bases without really changing the goal of the pile. For now I am going for consistency which also has its benefits.

About the mana base, I don't have problems with the base but I haven't really spend a lot time on it, I went by my feeling and personal touch. Perhaps the mana base can be tuned further to make it even more stable.

[Mantis]

Grimoire Thief, Extract and Rootwater Thief are awful, awful cards. They do absolutely nothing against Fish, Workshop Aggro and Ichorid also they do nothing against the host of random decks one can expect on a tournament. The last tournament I played in, my matchups were Belcher 2x, CS 2x, BUG Fish, BUW Discard Fish, Tezzeret, 2x RGB Goyf Sligh decks. Imagine I would have played extract on turn 1 in every game, how much games would it have won me? I'll tell you, 0. Extract is almost as bad as Extirpate. Grimoire Thief wouldn't get tapped at all against the Fish and Goyf decks, Belcher would have already killed you or lost anyway and CS plays Fire/Ice if you managed to remove a lot of cards anyway. So yeah I guess Tezzeret would care a bit. Rootwater Thief is slightly better, but very mana intensive, for a very small effect which has to be used like 3 times thus spending 8 mana to be relevant in some matchups.

I really like the deck against Drain decks, but the deck seems very weak against anything aggressive. I really can't see you stand much of a chance against Ichorid, Shop Aggro, Fish and decks packing Goyfs. Am I right in this assumption, if not please enlighten me with your plan to combat these type of decks. Could one of you eleborate on the matchups against the metagame as it is now?

I would think:
Fish: even matchup; possibly unfavorable as they run Confidants and Goyfs, but maybe the Skullclamps help?
Ichorid: godawful and truly unwinnable
CS: very good matchup.
Shop Aggro: even to bad matchup: Clamp or Welder + Shaman are your only outs.
Stax: even to postive matchup: Clamp > Smokestack.
TPS: very good matchup: probably what the deck is designed to fight against.
Goyf/Goblins/etc. decks: bad matchup, they traditionally beat the crap out of you.
Oath: even matchup I would say, but this one is tricky for me to judge as I haven't played the deck much at all. It might just be very bad if you don't get a Meddling Mage or Waterfront Bouncer.

From my observations it would seem this deck is designed for a Drain and combo heavy metagame with little randomness and just top tier decks. Is this the case or am I just incorrect on my observations?

To end my post I would like to give a heads up to this thread. I really liked reading through the development of this deck and I think you guys have done a great job so far. Success must be coming soon. If I can get the cards together I might even play a tourney with this myself.

[Guli]

One step at a time:

Fish: even matchup; possibly unfavorable as they run Confidants and Goyfs, but maybe the Skullclamps help?

The deck packs main deck Bouncer/Drake. How is any fish going to survive that brutal play? I think the fish match up is one of the easiest unless somehow they can start of wild with lotus/rod/confidant and time walk next turn with tarm, strip and Force in hand. Ok that is a crazy hand never mind that.

1. Drake/Bouncer
2. 28 creatures (don't underestimate this, the board will be crawling with creatures)
3. Skullclamp (will give you the edge for sure)
4. Safekeeper (really helps a lot against STP,REB,Threads of Dis,fire/ice,...)
5. Meddling Mage can be effective with bouncer just like drake is.
6. SB: Swords to Plowshares

The match up can be considered favorable. Null Rod can be a problem though, if they draw it. I find it awkward that this deck destroy tinker and suffers from null rod. Usually it is the other way around with fish decks. Still I prefer the latter because a null rod can't block or attack and can be eaten with shaman.

Ichorid: godawful and truly unwinnable

1. Skullclamp (the sooner the better, try to get rid of those bridges)
2. Gaddock Teeg (stops the return combo, breakthrough, force of will (some use it), chalice,...)
3. Meddling Mage (Cabal Therapy, Return)
4. 28 creatures (does help)
5. Believer/Vial/Drake doesn't really stop cabal because they can target themselves. Still nice though, important when you hold a drake and vial@2)
6. SB: STP, Relic of Progenitus, Needle

Not a great match up, at least not game 1. Teeg is important to stop them from combing and from that point on it is the clamps that have to do their job. Try to find mages and crapload of creatures. dredge is fast though. I consider the match up unfavorable before SB but even to positive game 2 - 3.

CS: very good matchup.

1. Vial
2. Welder+Shaman
3. Canonist, TeeG, Mage, ...
4. Safekeeper (relevant against trisk/pent/dupl)
5. clamps (doom for them, too many card advantage)
...
This match up is good.

Shop Aggro: even to bad matchup: Clamp or Welder + Shaman are your only outs.

1. Vial (number one weapon, wins games)
2. Welder+Shaman (yea they are in here for a reason, they are not 'outs' they are here to destroy shop)
3. Teeg (smokestack, chalice, EE, mindlock)
4. Clamp (gives that 3/1 that I need against those 5/3)
5. Mages (tangle wire, trisk, crucible,..)
6. Drake/Bouncer (it is aggro right? hehehe)
7. SB: Needle, artifact removal (oxidize, krosan, gleeful, take your pick...)

With the addition of welder/Shaman i really pulled this match up even in my opinion. Again Vial is key. Same things can be said about prison really. I don't really  distinguish aggro/shop or prison/shop. I do realize that there are differences but I deal with them in about the same fashion.

Oath: even matchup I would say, but this one is tricky for me to judge as I haven't played the deck much at all. It might just be very bad if you don't get a Meddling Mage or Waterfront Bouncer.

Entirely wrong. Oath has very small chances against this deck. They need that turn 1 oath with token. And even then they better have a counter back up. SB has additional STP and Krosan.

Goyf/Goblins/etc. decks: bad matchup, they traditionally beat the crap out of you.

1. 28 creatures
2. Skullclamp
3. Drake/Bouncer
4. Safekeeper, Mage
5. SB: STP, Relic (Goyf)

It is hard to fight bouncer if he is protected with safekeeper. And then it is a matter of time when the drake hits. Meanwhile clamps are working. Not easy for aggro. I have good results against any form of aggro. Goblins it all depends really. I name warchief with mage. Try to drop something turn 1 to stop lackey. If I can't stop lackey it could mean trouble but even then I don't really see this deck losing without a chance. You can't just walk over bears. They will block, fight and keep coming.

To conclude, i think your observations are not accurate, but that is understandable. And If you do stitch this pile together you will not have an easy time putting into action the things I described, due to play mistakes specific to the deck~match up.

Guli

[Mantis]

You seem to forget that all those decks also do something to stop your plan. All you did was list a whole bunch of stuff that was relevant in the respective matchups. I tried to take into account that most of the decks in T1 are capable of doing busted stuff turn 1 that a 'fair' deck like yours isn't capable of doing when making my matchup percentages. Sometimes they just go Tinker --> Triskelavus and you just die. Sometimes a Workshop --> Trinisphere will do you in. An aggro control deck isn't capable of these things. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture of a match.

Basically the problem I could see occuring with the deck is that you draw hands like this one:
Ethersworn Cannonist, 3 mana sources, Goblin Welder, Sylvan Safekeeper and Skullclamp.
You've got buisiness and mana that should be a keepable hand in T1, but what are you going to do against Oath or CS with this hand? Or TPS that just Fows or Seizes your Cannonis? A resolved Triskelion or Sword of Fire and Ice on a Solemn destroys this hand.

You are trying to do a bunch of awesome stuff with this deck like getting Vial + Clamp, Welder + Shaman or Drake + Bouncer on but what if your opponent counters the second lock piece or you don't draw into it? You don't have tutors to go find the missing lockpiece. Even Oath which runs 4 Orchard and 4 Oath together with numerous draw spells and tutors sometimes has troubles finding and resolving both pieces. Anyway, that is not to say the deck is bad, but you will always be at a strategic disadvantage if you don't play the most powerful strategies (in a vacuum) in the format. And playing dorks that rely on other dorks to have an impact on the game is not the most powerful strategy in this format. It may be the most efficient but bare an insane Black Lotus + Recall draw you can't rely on just blowing your opponent away every now and then.

That said, the deck does look very cool and I do applaud you for such creativity. I hope you can appreciate my feedback, as I tried my best not to just sound like a jerk but actually make some constructive criticism that might help you. Basically my opinion: I would play this deck if my meta were full of TPS and Drain and wouldn't play it if I had tons of Shop, Fish and random burn stuff flying around in my meta.

[Guli]

Basically the only problem I see with the deck is that you draw hands like this:
Ethersworn Cannonist, 3 mana sources, Goblin Welder, Sylvan Safekeeper and Skullclamp.
You've got buisiness and mana that should be a keepable hand in T1, but what are you going to do against Oath or CS with this hand?  A resolved Triskelion or Sword of Fire and Ice on a Solemn does this deck in. What if your opponent starts and opens with a Magus of the Moon?

Clamps are good against oath. I will most likely draw into vial or drake or bouncer by clamping all non essential cards. I want to answer the next statement as well

what is that supposed to mean? That the rest of the deck sucks in that particular matchup?

The rest of the deck will be recycled to draw the relevant part of the deck, in a given match up.

Or TPS that just Fows or Seizes your Cannonis?

With that hand i would play welder and pass the turn. You can not stop the canonist if you let my welder pass because Welder can weld in canonist by using clamp. These are the things I see happening btw. Most likely they won't allow the welder and force it (if they have any). Next turn canonist hits and they are already slowed down. The safekeeper + clamp will follow. Meanwhile I draw into more creatures that I use or clamp. The welder is decoy, if they ignore it, the canonist + clamp + welder (active) will ensure a canonist the next turns.

SoFi = good against all aggro, I don't see the relevance here. I will most likely block the Solemn to dead or die trying. I haven't seen many sofi btw. But it is possible.
Triskelon= is a problem of course, like it is always a problem when playing fish. You just try to stop it or make sure you have safekeeper/clamp to have resources against trisk/penta.
Magus of Moon= need vial in hand

Btw turn 1: Magus of Moon, Trini are good against any deck. Your 'top 8' decks are no exception. When shop goes trini turn 1 it means big trouble against almost every non-mirror.

Tinker is not a problem. If it comes too early, you won't have the mana to make pentavites, this gives me the window to weld it out, or steal it or clamp some stuff so i can keep up with your trisk. If it comes mid game, I most likely have enough resources to deal with it. Keeper/Clamps/Dudes ...


I find it funny that even your extreme examples are not unsolvable. Things I really fear are Rebuild and Pyroclasm. Cheap mass removal. I try to get a clamp going or mage trying to stop it by naming the card. This is why I was interested in the extract route. If I could manipulate their deck by removing key cards ... Problem is that I need to do it early. And early game I already need the tempo to get vial up and cast down stuff. No time for cute stuff.

[Guli]

You are trying to do a bunch of awesome stuff with this deck like getting Vial + Clamp, Welder + Shaman or Drake + Bouncer on but what if your opponent counters the second lock piece or you don't draw into it? You don't have tutors to go find the missing lockpiece. Even Oath which runs 4 Orchard and 4 Oath together with numerous draw spells and tutors sometimes has troubles finding and resolving both pieces. Anyway, that is not to say the deck is bad, but you will always be at a strategic disadvantage if you don't play the most powerful strategies (in a vacuum) in the format. And playing dorks that rely on other dorks to have an impact on the game is not the most powerful strategy in this format. It may be the most efficient but bare an insane Black Lotus + Recall draw you can't rely on just blowing your opponent away every now and then.

There is a lot of synergy between the creatures. I don't consider my creatures as combo elements. Maybe keeper+teeg can be seen that way against storm. I draw into the cards I have in the deck. That is why i use multiple cards that have the same goal. Shut down storm, artifact control, aggro control.
I don't see your points really. This deck destroy combo/control. And that archetype is played by a lot of people. While utterly walking over combo/control this deck holds its ground very nicely against other archetypes. It is effective in what it does. The creatures being used are known effective answers to specific problems. It works because it works, it has been proven over the years. I just had the idea to combine these utility creatures and come up with a working powerful new fish approach without a real mana denial strategy but the focal point is the spell denial and raw board control.

[Mantis]

SoFi = good against all aggro, I don't see the relevance here. I will most likely block the Solemn to dead or die trying. I haven't seen many sofi btw. But it is possible.
Triskelon= is a problem of course, like it is always a problem when playing fish. You just try to stop it or make sure you have safekeeper/clamp to have resources against trisk/penta.
Magus of Moon= need vial in hand

Btw turn 1: Magus of Moon, Trini are good against any deck. Your 'top 8' decks are no exception. When shop goes trini turn 1 it means big trouble against almost every non-mirror.

Tinker is not a problem. If it comes too early, you won't have the mana to make pentavites, this gives me the window to weld it out, or steal it or clamp some stuff so i can keep up with your trisk. If it comes mid game, I most likely have enough resources to deal with it. Keeper/Clamps/Dudes

I wasn't trying to name stuff that wrecks your deck, I was just expressing my concern with Fish in general, which is that they lack super busted openings I listed (The SoFI/Solemn, Tinker/FoW and Shop/3Sphere examples). And while mana denial Fish has FoW, Chalice, Null Rod, Stifle and Negate to protect itself against these busted opening hands you are just pray to be able to resolve the right guys for whatever scenario your opponent presents. That's my problem with the deck and perhaps I should have gotten to the point sooner.

Anyway, you defended yourself nicely. I like the deck and I will most certainly test it sometime to see if my criticism is founded or not.

[Stormanimagus]

Aggro Control, the meaning, part 2

Spartan Fish by Kadir N 'aka' Guli

Mana base
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
2x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strand
1x Plains
2x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Plateau
1x Glimmervoid
2x City of Brass

Main creature base
4x Meddling Mage
3x Gaddock TeeG
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x True Believer

Counter & protection
4x Sylvan Safekeeper

Artifact control
3x Goblin Welder
3x Gorilla Shaman

creature control
3x Gilded Drake
3x Waterfront Bouncer

Draw & Utility
1x Ancestral recall
4x Skullclamp

Tempo & Counter
4x Æther Vial
1x Time Walk

Getting back to this list for a second. I do not believe it is terribly focused and it doesn't have enough truly "fishy" cards. What I mean by this is cards that address a lot of concerns all at once. Sure you may have Gaddock Teeg for FoW and Tendrils, but it doens't really answer much else and will too often be a dead draw game 1. I think the best way to go with Fish is still the proven UW or UWb approach as those are the colors with the best answer cards. In Vintage clock IS important, but Fish is looking to buy itself turns to weedle the opponent down to 0 life by stalling, stalling, STALLING, STALLING until the opponent can no longer wait to "Go for it" and, hopefully, by that point you'll have the stifle or Counter waiting for them before you win the following turn with lethal damage. Here's the direction I'd go right now for a good UWb list of Fish. Mind that this is essentially a rough draft and I haven't tested it:

UWb Fish

Land (20):
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod

Artifact Creatures (5):
4 Ethersworn Canonist (1W)

Creatures (12):
4 Cursecatcher (U)
4 Meddling Mage (UW)
4 Dark Confidant (1B)

Instants (14):
4 Stifle (U)
4 Force Of Will (3UU)
3 Swords To Plowshares (W)
1 Vampiric Tutor (B)
1 Ancestral Recall (U)
1 Brainstorm (U)

Sorceries (1):
4 Thoughtseize (B)
1 Demonic Tutor (1B)
1 Time Walk (1U)

SB
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Extirpate
3 Yixlid Jailer
4 Aura Of Silence

[Guli]

And while mana denial Fish has FoW, Chalice, Null Rod, Stifle and Negate to protect itself against these busted opening hands you are just pray to be able to resolve the right guys for whatever scenario your opponent presents. That's my problem with the deck and perhaps I should have gotten to the point sooner.

This is by far the best feedback this thread received. Thank you Mantis, finally someone confronting me on the real issue. I brought it up myself shortly but nobody really replied to this issue. Is this route better than the mana denial? Or even superior? Or simply worse? These are the questions that should be asked indeed. And I hope more people will now tune in and give their opinion so we can start a real discussion here.

I will write my opinion on a later date. For now I await the feedback.

Guli

[Stormanimagus]

And while mana denial Fish has FoW, Chalice, Null Rod, Stifle and Negate to protect itself against these busted opening hands you are just pray to be able to resolve the right guys for whatever scenario your opponent presents. That's my problem with the deck and perhaps I should have gotten to the point sooner.

This is by far the best feedback this thread received. Thank you Mantis, finally someone confronting me on the real issue. I brought it up myself shortly but nobody really replied to this issue. Is this route better than the mana denial? Or even superior? Or simply worse? These are the questions that should be asked indeed. And I hope more people will now tune in and give their opinion so we can start a real discussion here.

I will write my opinion on a later date. For now I await the feedback.

Guli

I understand that you can't just make an "answer deck", but there is a fundamental issue of talking about roles here. If you want to make an offensive creature based deck go ahead, but you'll still be raced every time by combo. Goblins tried to do it once and failed. That's why that deck is tier 2 and not tier 1.

Every good Vintage deck right now has to either:

a)be a beast

or. . .

b)be a beast slayer.

If you can concoct an entirely new beast I welcome the ideas, but you can't have a 6-headed hydra answer to everything that is a beast that can dish out the punishment.

Wizards has not CREATED that card. At least not yet.

So WHAT do the fish players have to work with?

A well crafted metagame deck designed to beat the kinds of decks one might expect to round out a top 8. In many ways a fish decks approach should be much like UR Landstill.

Try to have a pretty even 50/50 for game 1 and, hopefully, maintain or improve that percentage for games 2 and 3. Then you rely on playskill to win the day.
Fish is not about a linear path to victory. It's about gambits, bluffs, and moving your opponent as skillfully as possible in to bad trades while keeping your life total out of the Red.

Sure you can craft your Fish Deck to absolutely destroy a certain mainstream deck (TPS, Stax, Drain-Decks), but you have to understand that there is still no gaurantee that you'll win as those decks are more prone to "GOD DRAWS" because the raw power is higher and sometimes you'll just lose even though you had 2 relevant hate cards in hand.

I think the best route for Fish to take is to simply use solid, synergistic cards that can help you win the attrition war. I'm referring to cards like Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, and Null Rod. Those are centerpieces of any good fish list because they balance the game in your favor. They are not particularly ridiculous in any one matchup, but they are solid in almost every single one. One then rounds out a list with more meta-specific cards like Ethersworn Canonist and Stifle. I think my above list is pretty damn solid and should be considered as a starting off point for a good fish list.

Now folks, by all means, INNOVATE! Stephen Menendian has done it twice of late with two good lists IMO for a Sui-Black and Parfait list.

Mono-colored decks are a different story. Those decks can probably included more fringy cards for a more linear approach to combating the field.
If someone is ballsy enough to try the same for blue, green, or red I'd be interested in hearing approached. Vintage is wide open right now, and I think the recent restrictions were a good idea for reducing the power of blue sufficiently to give the other colors a chance.

For example, I could see a lot of interesting R or RG lists coming in to existence with the inclusion of 4 Null Rod and 4 Chalice. I think Menendian hit the nail on the head when he said these are auto-includes for any "Budget List", that is, any deck that's not going the mainstream route. They are the most efficient and non-color dependent answers around.

Those are my thoughts. Deck ideas anyone?

[nineisnoone]

I wasn't trying to name stuff that wrecks your deck, I was just expressing my concern with Fish in general, which is that they lack super busted openings I listed (The SoFI/Solemn, Tinker/FoW and Shop/3Sphere examples). And while mana denial Fish has FoW, Chalice, Null Rod, Stifle and Negate to protect itself against these busted opening hands you are just pray to be able to resolve the right guys for whatever scenario your opponent presents. That's my problem with the deck and perhaps I should have gotten to the point sooner.

I don't consider the list to be the best deck.  RWG is better as an "aggro" deck.  BUG is better as a "control" deck.  The fact that I shifted my opinion to ditch FoW had less to do with that being the "optimal" choice and more with heavy blue walking me down a path that would basically lead me to building an entirely different deck, which would be counter-productive to the thread.

Fish: even matchup; possibly unfavorable as they run Confidants and Goyfs, but maybe the Skullclamps help?
Ichorid: godawful and truly unwinnable
CS: very good matchup.
Shop Aggro: even to bad matchup: Clamp or Welder + Shaman are your only outs.
Stax: even to postive matchup: Clamp > Smokestack.
TPS: very good matchup: probably what the deck is designed to fight against.
Goyf/Goblins/etc. decks: bad matchup, they traditionally beat the crap out of you.
Oath: even matchup I would say, but this one is tricky for me to judge as I haven't played the deck much at all. It might just be very bad if you don't get a Meddling Mage or Waterfront Bouncer.

Fish - well, my list runs Goyf (I don't see why Guli keeps pulling him).  my list doesn't run Confidant, but I do run Javelieers.  If we are talking about BUG Fish, then Rod would pose a problem.  But SB I cut Vial and add Swords.  4 Swords + 2 Bouncers + 3 Korlis is better than they can propose.  Threads can be an issue, but Bouncer is kind cool like that.  Skullclamp stays because it's objectively better than Null Rod, i.e. they gain little with Null Rod in play whereas I gain a lot if I can play Clamp without them playing Rod.  If you're talking about UW/b/r Fish, I feel our match-up is stronger.  We have anti-blue and black stuff (Vexing, Vial, Teeg, True Believer) and I don't run that much blue making REB weaker. 

Ichorid - ::shrug:: Ichorid is almost always a sideboard oriented match-up.  If you want to add the card to the board, then you'll have a decent chance.  I do have 5 self-removing creatures though in the main, which isn't bad for pre-board Ichorid.  (Though I have no SB against it)

Shop Aggro - Well, I run more creatures and removal than Guli.  Plus main deck Aura of Silence is good.  To be honest, I'm not really sure what most shop aggro decks look like these days, so I can't get into more detail to it than that.  Magus of the Moon would be the biggest problem.  Etherium isn't really different than Goyf for purposes of dealing with him.

Goyf/Goblin - Well, I run Goyf.  Korlis is useful here (especially if you have Vial @ 1). While I'd like to say that match-up isn't as bad as you might think, it's clearly not good. 

Oath - yeah, it's not really that bad.  sometimes you can just race.  sometimes they just drop Oath on turn one and there is nothing you can do about it.  those are the breaks.

[nineisnoone]

I think the best way to go with Fish is still the proven UW or UWb approach as those are the colors with the best answer cards. In Vintage clock IS important, but Fish is looking to buy itself turns to weedle the opponent down to 0 life by stalling, stalling, STALLING, STALLING until the opponent can no longer wait to "Go for it" and, hopefully, by that point you'll have the stifle or Counter waiting for them before you win the following turn with lethal damage.

I like your list.  Do you feel that it is better than BUG fish?  I ask because every time I have built a deck Null Rod-fish deck, I always end up coming to the conclusion that Green/Goyf is better than White/Mage-Cannonist-Swords.

For example, I could see a lot of interesting R or RG lists coming in to existence with the inclusion of 4 Null Rod and 4 Chalice. I think Menendian hit the nail on the head when he said these are auto-includes for any "Budget List", that is, any deck that's not going the mainstream route. They are the most efficient and non-color dependent answers around.

I don't really agree with Chalice/Rod as auto-includes. They are both good cards, but at the same time there are many cards that conflict with them (any 1 cost spell, Skullclamp, Vial) that are solid choices as well.  Your own deck doesn't list Chalice, so I would imagine that you don't 100% agree that they are auto-includes.

[Guli]

If i was going the mana denial route, in other words NULL ROD i would not play Vial. I think that the explosive hands that occasionally happen in T1 are just to be accepted but not to be feared. There are a lot people out there who won't be able to win even with a good hand/start. A turn 1 kill happens. We all have to accept that. Even with force of will it still is not enough to stop turn 1 storm kill. Curse catcher won't cut it either. The combination of force and curse most likely will. Turn one Dark Confi is accepted and considered as a good turn 1 drop even without Force of Will to have some disruption at the least. You are as helpless as a turn one Vial. The Confidant will only watch how the storm player is casting ritual after ritual. Accept it. I did. But not without a benefit, I made sure that once that vial kicks in I will have the specific cards to immediately counter the storm while the confidant is trying to draw more disruption more counters. I don't disrupt, I approach and stop immediately right there right now and I make sure its sealed (safekeeper). I don't want to repeat all the characteristics of this approach again, so I ll be blunt:

1) Immediate effect
2) Specific
3) Instant

Addressed to to spell itself and not the mana that is required to play the spell. Because I can't cover all types of spells, concretely creatures and artifacts, I implemented 12 slots (6 - 6) to solve that issue creature wise.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36497.0 This is the deck I would run if I would go Null Rod route and none other right now. It does what it has to do efficiently. I looked at your list and yes it is solid and that's about it. I can come up with a list like that any day and sure it will work and be solid but I can't feel the little extra. And another thing, it doesn't belong in this thread (don't get me wrong, I like your feedback and list) because it belongs in the Null Rod thread. You replaced Tarm with Canonist and negate for meddling mage. And instead of bounce you have STP. Cool, your pick, your style both piled will work. But don't mix up themes. I want to discus the themes but not by posting just lists. And i think tarm+mana denial goes well together. The whole point of disrupting mana is to cripple them and quickly pound the life out of them. Tarm does that. That is one of the reason I am comfortable without Tarm. I can control the game at a point, it would not matter if I had tarm or not, I go for that control. And another thing I want to say about clock. Clamp = clock+draw. It makes a huge difference. With 2 bears you are dealing 5 damage/turn that is a serious clock. Maybe the tarm user would finish it 1 turn earlier but have less control of the game.

I sense that a lot has to be learned about Vial. The card is not interpreted in the way it should be.

There is no 'best deck' man. I don't claim anything like that. I do however say that I have a good answer rate to a lot of situations. The reflexes of the deck are good. When it senses aggro it quickly find the bouncer/drake. I will not even discuss combo anymore because they don't stand a chance in a 5 game match not matter what cards they bring in from SB. The reaction time vs artifact.dec is a bit slower because they can be demanding a lot of the deck. I don't dare to say the match up is favorable but from what I noticed the last weeks, the welders/shamans/vials are really paying off.

[nineisnoone]

The reflexes of the deck are good. When it senses aggro it quickly find the bouncer/drake. I will not even discuss combo anymore because they don't stand a chance in a 5 game match not matter what cards they bring in from SB. The reaction time vs artifact.dec is a bit slower because they can be demanding a lot of the deck. I don't dare to say the match up is favorable but from what I noticed the last weeks, the welders/shamans/vials are really paying off.

I don't really see how you can say the deck has "reflexes."  You don't have tutors.  You have draw, but it's somewhat situational and slow (if you are just using clamp to draw off your 1/1 creatures). 

For the record, I feel the last list you posted is a step backwards.

[Guli]

I don't really see how you can say the deck has "reflexes."  You don't have tutors.  You have draw, but it's somewhat situational and slow (if you are just using clamp to draw off your 1/1 creatures).

For the record, I feel the last list you posted is a step backwards.

Please do explain more specifically which changes you think made the deck worse.

The time it needs to REACT to a situation would have been a better wording i guess. Clamp can be brutal, with 3x and 4x (answers not clamp) you will end up drawing at least 1 pretty soon. Especially with dual clamp on the 2/2's.

So why would addressing the spells itself, and not the mana necessary to play the spells, be a viable and [in my opinion a better, i do play the deck ...] route?

There is also the simple fact that taste itself is also reason enough. But here we will try to give good valid points.

[nineisnoone]

So why would addressing the spells itself, and not the mana necessary to play the spells, be a viable and [in my opinion a better, i do play the deck ...] route?

I'm not really sure what you are asking.  I'm not arguing a case for Null Rod in this deck. 

Please do explain more specifically which changes you think made the deck worse.

Mostly I think you are diluting your deck by trying to address too many things with fairly narrow cards.  Welder/Shaman just seem out of place.  Welder has almost zero synergy with the deck.  The only thing that deals with artifacts is Shaman.  Shaman doesn't especially have any other support in the mana denial department.  In light of these additions, you cut Tarmogoyf (or I'm guessing you did), which to me makes Drake/Bouncer questionable.  Half of your creatures are 1/1's.  Can you really go into a UWB match-up and give them a 3/3 flyer?  Or can you just keep bouncing creatures when the best offense you have is a 2/2 bear?  I know about the Drake + Bouncer combo, but it's a 5 mana 2 card combo.  The deck just feels like its too many little synergies that simply plays not to lose and assumes it's going to win on the back of long-term inevitability, a concept which I do not believe in.  Even full-blown control decks are realizing they need to dedicate portions of their deck to winning.