[Premium Article] Insider Trading - Are Proxies Hurting Vintage Tournament Atten

[jamestosetti]

I don't know If everyone can see the atoglords post or not but I guess I've stymied everyone. I tried to take my posts off but it will not let me. My english skills are definitly not where yours are. I more than likely could not score higher than a 30 percent on an essay without tons of practice. I probrably shouldnt post anymore until I learn to write like an adult I dont want to get banned for bad grammar.

[hcklbry6776]

It seems to me that the discussion is starting to go around in circles.  People who have power understandably have a hard time accepting proxies.  They spent the time/money to get power in the first place, and there seems to be a bit of expectation that others do the same.  I understand this point of view, I am powered, and I NEVER proxy anything in any format.  However, I have seen non-powered friends attempt a foray at Vintage and it could not have happened without the use of proxies (though the current meta seems to allow for some successful budget decks).  

So the basic argument comes down to the haves and the have-nots (in a very generalized overview).  The schism between the two groups is part of the problem.  No one can say what Wizards will do (though reprinting power nine seems unlikely), but as long as the Vintage community seems splintered as such, the people in power will likely consider treating us the way they always have.  

And as we continue to discuss, some people need to remember that the article was the affect on the Vintage Tournament Attendance, not the affect on the secondary market value of their Power Nine.  Truth be told if a Black Lotus was $50, more people might be inclined to attempt Vintage.

@ allowing Collector's Edition to be tournament legal, this won't happen because there is too much room for cheating with the corners being different.

Just my two cents.

[Sean Ryan]

Just to help folks out, here's a list of things that AREN'T going to happen:

Sanctioned proxy tournies
CE being legalized
"From the Vault: Vintage"
Power Reprints of any sort (no chance, folks)
Vintage Pro Tour
any serious increase in sanctioned Vintage
other things replacing power 9 as tournament prizes
prize adjustment based on your proxy count
"best unpowered deck" prizes in the US
unpowered decks being in any way seriously competitive

[/b]

I strongly disagree with the bolded claims.  Care to back them up?

There is no reason SCG or other non-sanctioned tournaments couldn't allow CE.  We do in the northwest and there has never been a problem with cheating that I can recall.  Seriously, just shuffle your opponents deck if you suspect any shenanigans.

What is inhibiting rewarding the best unpowered deck at a non-proxy event?  Other than a lack of high profile non-proxy events?

Money talks.  More so when you already own power or don't have an interest in accumulating it, so why not offer cash prizes?

Fish while not optimal without power can certainly be competitive.  Why limit yourself to the SCG power 9 distribution of prizes?  I say throw that model out the window and start from scratch.  Then giving a mox to the best unpowerd deck at a large event isn't so hard to imagine.

While I'm not holding my breathe for wizards to reprint power, I would argue that in combination with something like a yearly Vintage GP, reprinting power in limited quantity would actually increase the demand for power.  However, that is beside the point.     

[Tha Gunslinga]

I strongly disagree with the bolded claims.  Care to back them up?

Sure.

First of all, when I said "CE being legalized," people seem to have misinterpreted the word legalized as being a replacement for the words "allowed for proxies."  I meant "legalized."  There has always been speculation that Wizards will allow CE cards in Vintage tournaments.  This will not happen.  They were never meant to be tournament-legal, and I don't ever expect them to be.  They have writing on the backs and square corners; they are pretty close to marked cards, and trust me, *someone* would cheat.


As far as other things replacing P9 and prizes, people go to P9 events.  They always have.  Ultimately there's a lot of power out there.  It's easy to pick up a Mox for a prize.  It's a good vintage prize.  It's much harder for a TO to find a set of Shops or Bazaars for a prize, and I sincerely doubt I'd get more people for a set of Drains or dual lands or a bunch of hot T2 than for the equivalent in P9.

Now, you're probably thinking about cash here.  I'm not sure if offering cash would draw more players.  Obviously there are those who would prefer it, as it would make splits easier and would mean the winner wouldn't have to sell the card if they just wanted money.  However, as a TO, if I'm giving away a Mox Emerald, I can value it at $300, even if I paid $240 for it.  This allows me a little something for my time.  And believe me, if I got paid for TOing, it would seriously work out to minimum wage if you're just talking tournament entry minus expenses.  Many TOs lose money at least once or twice due to guaranteed prize and low attendance, so imagine if that were a cash prize?  Much worse.

 Now, you can say that you would solve that by just saying "$25 per person, winner gets 50% of the gross, second gets 25%, 3/4 get 10%, TO gets 5%, or something similar.  But the reason people show up is for guaranteed prizes.  Not "well, if we get 8 people then you're playing for $100."  People show up because there's a Mox, or a Lotus, or something that's guaranteed.

The other thing is that if a store runs a tournament, they're effectively "selling" a Mox.  Most stores make very very little money on Vintage events.  How could they?  Vintage players buy their singles online.  Most of them don't even buy sleeves at the store.  So the store sells a few boxes of sleeves, maybe one or two random cards, and a few dozen sodas, and in exchange has to pay someone to be at the store for 10 hours.  Yes, there are some stores that work a lot harder to make money off Vintage players, but this is the way the majority of stores operate.  The only thing Vintage has going for it to a store owner is that they can "sell" a Mox at full price, and maybe give store credit to the other finishers.

Speaking of store credit, couldn't we just have that as the prize?  Who would go to a tournament with store credit offered up?  Even if they listed the P9 you could buy with it (which would be pretty close to offering power anyway), it still wouldn't fly.  People want power as a prize.


Now, the "best unpowered deck" prize.  Currently almost all US tournaments offer a fairly good proxy count, ie 10+.  Most of the Midwest offers 25+.  There's no incentive to play an unpowered deck, nor should there be.  It's not like a "best amateur" prize, it's more like offering a "fastest smashed up" prize at a demolition derby.  As long as proxies are offered, which will most likely be forever, players will bring powered decks.  Therefore, offering a prize for an unpowered deck is totally pointless, as you're simultaneously telling players to bring powered decks and to bring unpowered ones.


And we all know that unpowered decks will never be competitive.  Please.  Seriously.  Show me a Vintage Worlds top 8 with an unpowered deck in the top 8.  Were there any?  Did any win in the last 5 years?  Of course not.  You're bringing a knife to a gunfight.  I'm thrilled that there are options for unpowered players in santioned metagames, but seriously, you pretty much cannot win power with an unpowered deck.  There's a reason Vintage exploded in popularity when proxies were introduced, and that's because players were happy to finally be able to play something other than Goblins, Ankh-Sligh, Sui Black, Fish, or R/G beats.

Don't even try to tell me Ichorid qualifies.  It's a decent deck for a good player, but considering how many people whine about it, do you really want more of it at tournaments?  Half the Ichorid decks out there are powered, usually running Sapphire, Recall, and Lotus.  A set of Bazaars costs more than an UL Lotus, and is worth about what 3 Moxen would be.  You can't call a deck "unpowered" if 4 of its cards cost you $750 total.  Oh, and please don't turn this into an argument about whether Ichorid is a real deck, or competitive, or unpowered, or whatever.  That's not the issue here.  The issue is proxies as a part of Vintage.

[AmbivalentDuck]

When's the last time you brought a new player to a tournament?  Taught someone how to play Vintage?  Gave someone a ride so they could play?  Loaned someone an entire deck.  Ran a tournament?  Emailed the DCI?  I bet half the people posting on this thread haven't even BEEN to a Vintage tournament in the last month.  Put your money where your mouth is.  If Vintage is dying (which is most explicitly IS NOT), then you people are the reason it's dead.

I've hauled friends to tournaments numerous times.  Few wanted to go back.  Simply put: vintage circa 2002 wasn't fun.  You were at a large disadvantage playing an underpowered deck (10 proxies does not = power and drains), and worse the Detroit area was more than a bit unfriendly and patronizing to new players at the time.  I can say this because it was 2002 and I can assume everyone involved has since grown up.

There's two important points right there.
1) Proxies are absolutely necessary for introducing new players to the format.  Who has $3k to try out a new format?  Who has a second set of power that they can loan out?

2) In a fast format compressed into a very few turns, n00bs *do* need some coddling.  They will make mistakes with their tutoring (some very obvious) and making fun of them for it doesn't help.  As an example, at one of my last tournaments in St. Louis I got paired up against every vintage player's dream: unpowered 5C slivers (despite 10 proxies being allowed).  Did I rejoice on the inside?  Yes.  Did I drag the game out a few extra turns and let him get me below 5 life before comboing out?  Also yes.  Did I make fun of the poor kid after thoroughly smashing him?  No.  After the game, instead of telling him that his deck sucked, I suggested that he proxy P9 into his deck or consider running disruption like Root Maze, Chalice, and Null Rod.  I also mentioned this site and Starcity as places where he could find current tech.


As far as emailing the DCI, I occasionally get the opportunity to chat with a member of Wizards R&D on AIM.  From what I can gather, they're busy people with difficult jobs.  Many of them were hired for their demonstrated expertise in other formats.  They also seem willing to listen to the community when there's a clear concensus AND it won't make their jobs (much) harder.  For instance, I predict that Steve won't get Shahrazad unbanned simply becuase the community is split and it makes some people's jobs much harder. 

So...maybe our best bet is to just start some sort of poll.  We could come up with a list of solutions that Wizards could actually implement without major policy changes, and then vote on one...hopefully with one solution winning by a large enough margin that they actually take notice.

Here's my solution: print some variation on Steel Mox.

Steel Mox
0
T: Add one colorless to your mana pool.

Why would this help the format?  It would make it possible to build an unpowered deck that included 'off color' moxen.  This drastically reduces the gap between powered and unpowered decks without destroying other formats or requiring major policy changes.  It's arguably much less destructive than Chrome Mox (one word: affinity).

[Purple Hat]

The reason players sell prizes is that they'd rather be playing for cash in the first place

Exactly.  The 10 proxy structure makes it silly not to want cash instead.

either that or the economy, or the fact that many players are college students, or many other things.  the fact is that if the prize is cash you can buy moxes with it if you want, or you can buy food, or you can buy beer.....moxes have limited utility, Cash doesn't.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Oh, right, but as I said, TOs would rather give out cards, and they're the ones who decide.

[UnholyAlliance]

Here's my solution: print some variation on Steel Mox.

Steel Mox
0
T: Add one colorless to your mana pool.

Why would this help the format?  It would make it possible to build an unpowered deck that included 'off color' moxen.  This drastically reduces the gap between powered and unpowered decks without destroying other formats or requiring major policy changes.  It's arguably much less destructive than Chrome Mox (one word: affinity).

I'm not sure this would fly either, as this sounds awfully similar to the Five Color Invitational card; Mox Crystal. Now I'm not certain if this card constitutes as "power", so I don't know how many folks would be upset if this were to take place, but...

They spent the time/money to get power in the first place, and there seems to be a bit of expectation that others do the same.

[merfolkOTPT]

I have a question. Is it possible that the real problem is just age of Magic. As time goes on old cards are harder to come by period.  People retire and keep their collections, cards get lost, etc.  A temporary solution in the US was to allow proxies, this in turn allowed a spike in availability in Europe.  However, this is a temporary solution.  Eventually the same problems will hit Europe too and we just bought them time.  The only solution if this is true is to reprint older cards or allow the format to die.  Is this totally crazy, or somewhat logical.
 

[Tha Gunslinga]

Wouldn't proxies solve this "problem"?

[LotusHead]

Steel Mox
0
T: Add one colorless to your mana pool.

While I think this card would be super hawt, and I would love to have a playset, it would have to be introduced to Limited, Standard and so forth before they see Vintage Play.

IE: Wizards wont ever print this for Vintage only. It has to be Standard/Limited worthy.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Right.  And hopefully it won't wreck those formats since it seems on par with Chrome Mox.


My suggestion for a fix aside, getting Wizards to do anything will take:
A) A viable suggestion
B) Concensus within the community that it should be implemented.

[M.Solymossy]

That card would make combo even MORE unfun.  I would run that in belcher, as well as full power.  Enjoy.

[nataz]

@ Ben,

I agree a lot with what you are saying, but I have to disagree with the store credit clause. Myriad Games under Dan Yarrington has had a very long run of monthy events (he mentioned that sat was the 60th-something mox event) and he DOES give out store credit for a prize. That being said, the only way that he can get away with this is, as opposed to promised power for 1st, is he proven ability to a) run a solid event, and b) therefore draw enough people for the myriad money to be worth it.

Credit ends up being the same as giving away power since the winner buys product at the sell prices, but the option for cash is there at a 25% reduction.

@ everyone

People really need to read some of Steve old articles again. This is Steve as in Steve "Zherbus" O'Connell , as in the founder of TMD. You can find his work on SCG, here are some links relevent to the discussion.

How Type One Became More Accessible And Evolved
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/8364_How_Type_One_Became_More_Accessible_And_Evolved.html

As the "spark-plug" who got proxy tournaments started, let me provide some history. Most of you probably won't remember this period in Vintage history, so let me set the stage. It was late 2000. The global metagame was very loosely defined. Europe had far fewer tournaments than it does today, and there was absolutely nothing in New England, save some sanctioned thing in the bowels of Massachusetts. The biggest Type One spots in the U.S. were the Richmond Comix and the Neutral Ground New York.

He does a great  breakdown of 0 proxy, 5 proxy, 10 proxy and unlimited proxy metagames with pro's and con's. Its a good starting place that shows you how first 5 proxy, and then 10 proxy became the norm first in NE, and later across the US.

He also wrote a great article on how to run a Vintage Event, but I can't seem to find the link anymore. Ben has it right. If people spent half as much time trying to grow the format by bringing friends, lending deck, and runing events, as they do bitching about proxies, we would all be in a better place. With out Steve there would be no TMD specifically, and who knows exactly how things would have turned out. Not to say the man didn't have his flaws, but it does go to show you the power that one person with dedication to the format can have.

I'd mention another Steve in that vein, but I wouldn't want his head to as-plode from the praise. 

[Stormanimagus]

The thing I truly don't understand is how sanctioning proxied Vintage events hurts anyone economically. As it stands now the vast majority of Vintage events are run with 10 + proxies and the prize structure of a given tourney is, at least in part, determined by attendance.

If we these become DCI sanctioned events nothing really needs to change (other than perhaps a more standardized approach to what constitutes a legal proxy), and the Vintage community has so much to gain in FNM events and appeal to a much larger potential player pool.

I'm not moaning and complaining here. I simply don't have the time or power to exact any meaningful change by myself right now, and so all I have is the suggestions I can make in the forums on TMD.

Could someone explain to me what I'm missing and how Sanctioned proxy events truly cause more problems than they can fix with gaining the small tourney FNM player base? Ideally, I'd like Ben to chime in on this one because this truly seems to me like the best solution that makes the most people happy, and a natural logical next step for Vintage.

I leave you with one final thought. Consider this. The player base for Vintage IS growing older and many of them will probably leave the game as wives/kids become more important. None of them cared about their events being sanctioned by the DCI. Or at least, such has always been my impression (correct me if I'm wrong here long time Vintage folks).

Now, fast-forward to today. Today a potential incoming Vintage crowd will most likely be folks coming from Extended or Standard and they will very much care about having sanctioned Vintage events or they will not give it a chance. Therefore, sanctioning proxied Vintage evnents could actually do good now where it wouldn't have 5 years ago.

Just food for thought. . .

[nataz]

Where do you think the "older" vintage crowd came from in the first place? It's not like we were some huge group of people that had never played standard or extended before and suddenly decided, "hey, lets play this game called magic, and lets play by "vintage" rules."

[Stormanimagus]

Where do you think the "older" vintage crowd came from in the first place? It's not like we were some huge group of people that had never played standard or extended before and suddenly decided, "hey, lets play this game called magic, and lets play by "vintage" rules."

I apologize. That was meant to be an inclusive statement. What I mean is a crowd old enough to the game to have played Extended and Standard back when the now-only-vintage-and-legacy-cards were legal. The only players knowledgeable and experienced enough with those cards to understand the format of Vintage as it exhists today. I meant no offense, only that it seems to me that the more experienced Vintage players of today who might be exiting the game for various reasons don't seem to care as much about sanctioning Vintage because the idea of a 'Vintage Pro Tour' isn't that important to them. They have their playing groups and couple large events each year, and if they truly want to make the haul to Gen Con or the Vintage Championship then they have their recognitioin from the larger magic community. They don't necessarily desire sanctioning for the purposes of creating an FNM scene quite the way a more fringey prospective player might. That's all I meant. Sorry if it came across as offensive.

[UnholyAlliance]

I agree with storm that sanctioned proxy events wouldn't be too difficult to imagine, although I don't think we need sanctioned proxy events to attract that FNM crowd. If need be, Star City Games already has an extensive guidline system for acceptable proxies:

There are two types of acceptable proxies for use in the Star City Games Power 9 tournament series. The first and most basic is taking a basic land card and writing the details of the card on it. The second method is to take a card that shares some of the characteristics with the card that is being proxied and erase any characteristics that do not match, replacing them with the correct characteristics.

All proxies must have the following text neatly printed, using a extra fine point sharpie. Ball point pens may not be used:
• The full name of the card (no abbreviations or nicknames)
• Correct casting cost of the card including all colored mana symbols
• All relevant/game effecting text

When choosing what card to use as the base for an erased proxy players must follow these rules:
• The mana cost of the base spell must be the same as the card being proxied.
• The type of the card being proxied must be the same as the base card.
• The P/T of a creature being proxied must be the same as the base creature P/T
• When proxying a creature it may be difficult to find a creature where all characteristics match. In this case, mana cost is the most important, followed by the P/T, followed by the subtype. Any characteristics that do not match must be erased and corrected.
• The art box, card name, and text box must be totally erased. White out may not be used for this as it affects the stiffness of the card and may mark it.
• When adding text to the card do not use a ball point pen. A extra fine point sharpie is the best thing to use. A ball point pen can cause indentations on the card marking it.
• For clarity reasons, the use of cards with the new card frame is strongly encouraged

Examples:
• Welding Jar or Spellbook can be used for a Mox or Black Lotus
• Disarm could be used for an Ancestral Recall
• Train of Thought for a Time Walk
• Counsel of the Soratami for a Timetwister.

How to Erase a Card:
Acetone and a cotton ball or q-tip works well, as does a pencil/ink eraser (the white/grey split type) using the grey side. Before erasing the card, take masking tape and tape off all the areas that you don't want erased for a clean edge. It will take time, but it will come off.

Look they even illustrate how to properly erase a card.
With penalties for bad proxies administered, I don't see a great deal of problems with sanctioned proxy events.

[Stormanimagus]

I agree with storm that sanctioned proxy events wouldn't be too difficult to imagine, although I don't think we need sanctioned proxy events to attract that FNM crowd. If need be, Star City Games already has an extensive guidline system for acceptable proxies:

There are two types of acceptable proxies for use in the Star City Games Power 9 tournament series. The first and most basic is taking a basic land card and writing the details of the card on it. The second method is to take a card that shares some of the characteristics with the card that is being proxied and erase any characteristics that do not match, replacing them with the correct characteristics.

All proxies must have the following text neatly printed, using a extra fine point sharpie. Ball point pens may not be used:
• The full name of the card (no abbreviations or nicknames)
• Correct casting cost of the card including all colored mana symbols
• All relevant/game effecting text

When choosing what card to use as the base for an erased proxy players must follow these rules:
• The mana cost of the base spell must be the same as the card being proxied.
• The type of the card being proxied must be the same as the base card.
• The P/T of a creature being proxied must be the same as the base creature P/T
• When proxying a creature it may be difficult to find a creature where all characteristics match. In this case, mana cost is the most important, followed by the P/T, followed by the subtype. Any characteristics that do not match must be erased and corrected.
• The art box, card name, and text box must be totally erased. White out may not be used for this as it affects the stiffness of the card and may mark it.
• When adding text to the card do not use a ball point pen. A extra fine point sharpie is the best thing to use. A ball point pen can cause indentations on the card marking it.
• For clarity reasons, the use of cards with the new card frame is strongly encouraged

Examples:
• Welding Jar or Spellbook can be used for a Mox or Black Lotus
• Disarm could be used for an Ancestral Recall
• Train of Thought for a Time Walk
• Counsel of the Soratami for a Timetwister.

How to Erase a Card:
Acetone and a cotton ball or q-tip works well, as does a pencil/ink eraser (the white/grey split type) using the grey side. Before erasing the card, take masking tape and tape off all the areas that you don't want erased for a clean edge. It will take time, but it will come off.

Look they even illustrate how to properly erase a card.
With penalties for bad proxies administered, I don't see a great deal of problems with sanctioned proxy events.

Wow. that is a detailed explanation. Well said. The only thing I'm not sure I agree with is erasing the original artwork. If the text of the card says everything you want it to and it is clear than that should be enough. I do, however, agree that the cards 'characteristics' should be identical to the proxied card or extremely easy to change. Here's a rundown of how've I've proxied my power 9:

5 Moxen = 5 original basic lands in peak condition (sharpied and obviously sleeved for tourneys)
1 Black Lotus = Fountain of Youth
1 Time Walk = Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall = Jump (original version because the light faded color of the card is easier for sharpie to show up on)
1 Twister = Not sure I've created a proxy for this one yet actually. Counsel of Soratami seems fine, but I'd prefer an unlimited card as they are lighter colored and easier to write on. Any 2U Sorceries you guys know of from early sets?

Anyhoo, My proxies are extremely clear and impossible to tell from my other cards (especially when sleeved). So it's possible to make good proxies folks.

[LordHomerCat]

FYI I think you quoted the wrong post there.

The artwork thing is mostly because the easiest way to ID a card from afar is the art.  If you are running 5 moxes and all are Welding Jars with the original art, it's gonna be really hard for me to look across the board and figure out what is what.  Making an effort to make the art look like the original or just erasing it in general makes it a lot clearer what the card is and is not.

[nataz]

No need to apologize. Let me be more clear.

Now, fast-forward to today. Today a potential incoming Vintage crowd will most likely be folks coming from Extended or Standard and they will very much care about having sanctioned Vintage events or they will not give it a chance. Therefore, sanctioning proxied Vintage evnents could actually do good now where it wouldn't have 5 years ago.

I've been playing vintage 6 years now, thats it. I came into Vintage right as 5 proxy events were starting to take hold, and right as the huge upswell in vintage was taking place. So, I am that hypothetical guy you are talking about. I can tell you right now a lot of my friends who got into vintage that time, or thereabouts, where extended and standard players.

No one I knew in my imidiate circle came from a pure vintage background. In fact, almost all of the people that I know that play vintage regularly came from a standard/extended background as opposed to simply vintage players. I think there are very very few players that didn't come from some kind of competitive magic background that play vintage tournements today. I think your profile of older players is flawed. We didn't come from standard or extended because of sanctioned magic, we started because it was fun.

Why was it fun/what got us to start playing vintage? 1) we got to play with our old extended/standard cards again. 2) as long as proxies were involved, it was competitive. The LAST thing I wanted to do was play some unpowered Elf Ball deck against GAT, or Keeper.

Sanctioning would have been terrible for my group because we only had maybe 10 peices of power and no workshops, bazaars, or other expensive type 1 staples between the 6 of us (I had none). It was far more important to be able to compete, then it was to play sanctioned. I'd rather win with proxies and be unsanctioned, then get blown out of the water without proxies and have it count to my standings. I think that would hold true for any competitive player.

I'll ceed the point that to many proxies may stifle the format, but I refuse to believe that type 1 could survive here in the states at a competitive level with out them. You can point to europe, but even there the trends are shifting. More poxy events are happening every day, check out the post from the Italians in the SCG thread. Plus, as many people pointed out, the euro's get bigger magic events overall then we do, and thats prob a function of infrastucture.     

[Stormanimagus]

FYI I think you quoted the wrong post there.

The artwork thing is mostly because the easiest way to ID a card from afar is the art.  If you are running 5 moxes and all are Welding Jars with the original art, it's gonna be really hard for me to look across the board and figure out what is what.  Making an effort to make the art look like the original or just erasing it in general makes it a lot clearer what the card is and is not.

here's my question: wouldn't erasing and drawing something else on a card kinda mark it? A Lot?

[Stormanimagus]

No need to apologize. Let me be more clear.

I think your profile of older players is flawed. We didn't come from standard or extended because of sanctioned magic, we started because it was fun.

You see. This is just my point. I'm not directing this comment at you. I'm talking about today's Standard/Extended Players that might try out Vintage. I think many of them are looking for sanctioned events to tantalize them to join because they want DCI points. This is actually why I love Vintage players like you so much. You guys played and play magic FOR FUN. Geez, what a concept! Play a GAME for FUN. I'm sorry, that's a very embittered sounding comment, but, truth be told, I don't like most Extended/Standard players today. I think they are overly serious about what should be a fun and thought-provoking game and they'd rather get a player DQed than have an engaging and challenging match. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think it is one thing that is disenfranchising players like me that just want to have a fun competitive experience in a somewhat relaxed environment.

So what I'm saying is I believe you. I just don't think the current prospective Vintage players are looking for "fun." They are looking for a legitimate format that can advance their 'standing' in the official competitive magic world and earn them bigger 'pimp points.' To them, fake cards and Mox prizes seem silly, and I think many of them treat Vintage like a pathetic joke because of it. It breaks my heart, but it's the impression I get.

[LordHomerCat]

FYI I think you quoted the wrong post there.

The artwork thing is mostly because the easiest way to ID a card from afar is the art.  If you are running 5 moxes and all are Welding Jars with the original art, it's gonna be really hard for me to look across the board and figure out what is what.  Making an effort to make the art look like the original or just erasing it in general makes it a lot clearer what the card is and is not.

here's my question: wouldn't erasing and drawing something else on a card kinda mark it? A Lot?

That is a big reason that we play non-limited magic in Sleeves.  Drawing with markers won't actually do anything if the card is in a sleeve, although I advise against using a ballpoint pen or thick paint as those can affect the stiffness and thickness of the card in a noticeable way.  Erasing (or even better, acetoning) out stuff on the card doesn't affect its feel in a sleeve at all.

[Almighty]

Some food for thought, how many active vintage players are there in the US. As in, has participated in a tournament in the past 3 months. Over 1000? Under 500?

I'd venture a guess of around the 250 range taking into account the different geographic "hot spots"

How many active players are in New England now, once a hotbed? 75 maybe? How many in the new hotbed, the Midwest? 100? I tried pulling up some stats, but most TOs don't have full player lists. Even left to estimation, I think the total number of players is an extremely important and overlooked statistic in this whole ordeal.

Perhaps an admin has some stats thbat can be derived from TMD, like total unique hits to certain forums.

Nobody likes to see a decline in the format, but before we can come up with a logical reason, I think we should know exactly how many people we are reaching to begin with. Is it that much of a surprise when large scale tournaments, like SCGP9 have such small attendences when there are only a couple hundred potential attendees?

[Tha Gunslinga]

At least half the attendees at a big T1 tournament are non-regulars, though.  A lot of them are casual players or players of other formats.

[orgcandman]

If you believe [these] arguments are not entirely driven by profit-motive I direct you to the following post which conveniently follows directly after a Menendian post:

Just one TO's perspective.

Attendance is only one way of measuring success at a tournament.   I would get 30+ players when I ran proxy events but would sell few if any cards to the players.  Why should I expect to sell cards to players who don't need them?  In an earlier post Steve Menendian mentions that winners of power don't keep and use the card for future tournaments.  They go straight to eBay.  I now only run sanctioned events with additional prizes for best performing non-powered deck.  This has piqued the interest of quite a few players at my store and my sales of singles is pretty healthy because of it.  As time goes on some these players who are un-powered have eventually purchase P9 cards.  The bottom line to my jibberish is that I would rather have 20+ players at a sanctioned event than 30+ at a proxy event.  This gives me long term customers and a financial reason to even consider hosting events.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Carl

I'm not sure what you're getting at. From my perspective, this argument actually is in favor of running non-proxy, as opposed to proxy events. Steve is saying that we should have fewer proxied cards at events. Ben is saying we should have fewer proxied cards at events. This TO is saying we should have fewer / no proxied cards at events. Are you in disagreement? If so, then your statement doesn't make sense, unless you're saying that the reasons are financially motivated. I would agree that they are, but propose the following addendum: If the TOs don't make money, they don't hold tournaments. The quote you included supports this.

Perhaps people sell power...because it is represents an unjustifialbe "luxury" item considering what other things that amount of money could fetch, even if spent so-to-speak frivilously on other entertainment items.  It is very convenient for you personally, and a few other "elite" (in your own mind) who own power, to draw clever arguments on why "proxies are bad for the format".  Without proxies there is no format.
[/color]

Again, I'm not sure what your point is? Are you saying that people sell their power right away so that they can make money? I dunno if I believe that. If someone spends their time traveling the "vintage circuit" (something which doesn't even exist) winning prizes and selling them to make money, I can assure you that they've chosen the wrong career. The cost of entry to a vintage tournament is $10-$30. That means that a person attending a tournament has paid for roughly 5 rounds of vintage magic. They're also given some additional number of rounds depending on the cut. That they win a prize at the end has no bearing. This isn't high stakes magic. There's no way to make a proper living off vintage tournaments. The mox prize in question represents a $10-$30 investment, and a day of playing magic. If someone is in such dire straights that they need to play, win, and immediately sell their power tells me that they're not wisely spending their time, as they can make more per week at an hourly job.

Calling myself, or Steve, or anyone else who owns power, "elite" is rather silly. No one is arguing that proxies should be done away with to give power owners advantages. The problem is, there's no longer a sense of pride in owning power. It's no longer "wow, I really hope I can play enough / win enough to own some power." It's become "Well, there's no reason to own power, so I guess I should sell this." That's not good for vintage. When the attitude about the cards becomes "Eh, no reason to own these" the format becomes, as has been said, easy to slip in and out of. The attendance doesn't become consistent. The number of familiar faces attending tournaments dwindles. It's what we've been seeing since 2005.

As far as the biggest decline? I think it's fun. Honestly, people say that vintage is fun. And sometimes it is. Mostly though, it isn't for many people. It doesn't have anything to do with "this deck is over-represented" or "there are only X new decks every year" or anything like that. It's the fact that not much has changed in 6 years. Sure, we've gotten some neat tricks. But the fact that the first fundamentally different deck (Ichorid) isn't considered fun or skillful means that you have the option of playing the same thing you've played since 2002, or the new thing stigmatized kid on the block. Elves has similar enough feel to goblins, albeit with a faster clock, that it doesn't really qualify as new.

I'm not trying to be facetious here. Really, when you see someone open with "island go", you know what's going to follow. You've already pretty much figured out at least 50% of the cards, and are just waiting to see them.

The most fun games I've had in magic recently had nothing to do with what I was playing, how many proxies were involved or the opponent's deck. They had more to do with the social interaction and the people involved.

I think that's the biggest reason for decline. "Fun"

[Tha Gunslinga]

There's no way to make a proper living off vintage tournaments. The mox prize in question represents a $10-$30 investment, and a day of playing magic. If someone is in such dire straights that they need to play, win, and immediately sell their power tells me that they're not wisely spending their time, as they can make more per week at an hourly job.

Most people who do this already have hourly jobs, but the extra $200 or $300 from a Mox helps a LOT.

[Suicideking]

I think any way you cut it most players are going to want cash over cardboard. 

How many people have tried to justify the cost of this game to their non-magic playing friends?  Most people think Im out of my mind for having cards like a lotus. 

If proxies weren't allowed this format would just die to legacy.  Id quit playing vintage in a heartbeat.  Maybe some players would stick around, but I have a hard enough time convincing my friends to keep playing when they get destroyed and they can proxy power.  Every major tournament would just turn into players with power and those who could barrow some.  How many times a year could you hold vintage worlds, because those players would be the only ones playing any more.

[Diakonov]

I have never seen a thread grow so fast.  It's incredible.  Well, I suppose everyone has their opinion.  I already shared mine 3 pages ago so I won't rehash the whole thing, but since no one replied I will sum up a few quick things again:

Wizards has no reason to really care about Vintage when they have Limited and Standard.  That is where they make money.  Hence, they are NOT going to reprint moxen or sanction proxies, EVER.  This would only serve to detract players who are involved in their money-making formats; by comparison, Vintage players net them virtually nothing in profits.  As far as I am concerned, it's completely up to us, the community, to fix this problem.

Next: there are two kinds of people who play magic.  Those who take a lot of pride in their collection, and those who specifically see it as a game to be won.  Most people are some combination of these, like myself.  The precarious line you have to tread to maximize the player base is to appeal to as many from both schools of thought as possible.

While it's true that freely allowing proxies encourages more people to try the game, it has less staying power.  This is good for people who strictly would play Magic for the fun factor, ignoring the materialistic factor.  On the other hand, having too few proxies will alienate those people who simply want to play and don't care about card value, but will keep others in the game in a more permanent fashion if they are card-value-inclined. 

I know that there are budget decks--Stephen you mentioned the success of Ichorid--but a lot of people who are gaming savvy are still going to have problems with being forced into very specific archetypes that in general have to struggle to compete with its powered counterparts.  Awarding the highest finishing underpowered decks greater prizes is a fantastic idea, BTW, and it seems that for the most part everyone agrees with this.  Someone should start a thread on it.

Truly, though, I think the best way to increase attendance is to have localized tournaments where more proxies are legal, just to stimulate interest and to keep Magic on the brain on a weekly basis.  This is severely important when talking about introducing new players to the game; new people are not going to randomly show up to $20 proxy-less tournaments. 

As far as larger tournaments go, I can agree with the idea of limiting proxies.  Now, I'm going to be the first to take a very large step outside the proverbial "box" by suggesting:

8 proxies

In case many of you are unfamiliar with this number, it is somewhere in the nether region between 5 and 10.  I choose this number because it still encourages a degree of having to own some cards in the multi-$100 range to be "fully powered."  Likely, the result would be that those who don't own power are 1 or 2 moxen short, leading them to want to own one without being at a severe disadvantage.  I, personally, would be forced to play TPS minus one mox, which will engage my "want to own power" neurons while keeping me at the tournament.