[Premium Article] Insider Trading - Are Proxies Hurting Vintage Tournament Atten

[Thisson]

Some of you are not playing since 1994, so here's the deal.  In the beginning, there was ONLY vintage.  The cards were available, and only moderately expensive.  As a result, people played without sleeves.  It was no big deal.

Times have changed.  There are fewer cards surviving in circulation from the ~1994 issue dates, rather than being locked away in some collector's vault.  Many of the cards that are circulated are counterfeits.  The genuine cards that remain in circulation, in good condition, are super expensive.  Nobody new is going to intentionally decide to join this format when it costs so much to get the basic tools, let alone to keep up with continual purchases as new sets are released.  I earn well into the 6 figures, and when my kid is old enough to play magic, you think I'm going to give him money to buy vintage cards?  Of course not.  What parents would?  Remember, parents (directly or indirectly) pay for a lot of the Magic cards that are bought.

What's killing the format is Wizard's reprint policy, plain and simple.  If you want a large influx of new competitors to play against in vintage tournaments, the only solution is to make a new stock of playable cards available.  People are attracted to magic because of the fantasy elements and the beautiful art.  Proxies are hideously ugly.  Bent, creased cards are repulsive, too.  People want access to playable, clean, crisp cards (with the new card smell, where possible).  That means if Wizards wants to attract players, they need to print new versions of power, dual lands, etc. so there is a reasonably priced supply of aesthetically attractive cards.

They can do it with new art so it won't affect the collectibility of the original sets, but they seem reluctant to do so.  They will be forced to eventually, and I predict that they may ultimately use Magic's 20th anniversary as an excuse to release these cards to the "new generation" of players.   It's either that, or Vintage will continue to decline to the point that nobody actually plays.

[weedian]

I was scrolling through this thread earlier, and thought to myself.

Proxies do not kill a format, players do.

The store i go to used to be the haven for magic. It was the only store to offer DCI magic in the city and would get 50+ people show for an FNM and sometimes had to turn some away.

This has changed to the max being around 24. This is partially to blame because of the number of DCI sanctioned stores is up to 2, but the blame goes to the players at the same time. The cocky mouthy guys who want to be "Pros" drive alot of the younger kids away to the other store which has a more laid back attitiude. This in turn stifles the growth of players to the relaxed level. Instead of getting say 1 out of 4 magic players striving to the competitive level it goes to a 1 out of 8 or greater.

Proxies cause problems yes, but do they hurt the vintage scene. No.

I think the whole aspect with Vintage in the past was to set the prize as power, and people would go YES now i have power. That isn't as big a deal as it once was when we have Standard foil playsets that can be higher then some of the lower priced power (Tarms, Foils Plainswalkers etc).

In the past most vintage and vintage type tournies have been winner take all (Mox) and then 2-8 lesser prices.

I will compare the 2 vintage tournies we had recently here (both 10 card proxy)

1st one, Prizes for top 2 were going to be Beta Mind Twist, Foil COB.

So nothing really big and mind blowing, price was only $12, but we drew 24 people.

Why.. Because the Top prize was something old and cool, and there were prizes for top 8, that by 4th place had dropped off but were still close to entry fee.

Fast forward to the 2nd one.

Prizes for top 2 were a Full set of Vanguard (All 32) or a pack of Euro lands(the old ones)

Nothing to sneeze at, this time we drew a total of 13 people.. The Set of Vanguard cards could easily fetch more then a Beta Mind Twist, but why did more people show up? More luster on the beta card, something that's desirable because its old and cool. Where Vanguard is a wtf who cares kinda thing.

I've probably missed my point as I rant, but there are too many variables all over magic to point the finger at Proxies.

[reaperbong]

On Sunday we had our first non-proxy Vintage Tournament in Prague. Of course there was an outcry when this was first announced. In response our local store owner/organizer wrote a superb article backing up his theory that banning proxies would double the attendance (unfortunately the article is in Czech but I will find the time to translate and post later). His main assumption was based on the statistics that on average there is double the amount of people attending the largest Vintage tournament in Europe than in the US.

Well his theory, as well as the brilliant article this thread is discussing, couldn't have been proven more correct. The attendance on Sunday was more then double than that of the best attended Proxy-Vintage Tournament of 2008. Not only were there a plethora of new faces in attendance with Power/expensive-as-hell cards, but there were a host of new (Legacy) players i've never seen before trying out decks such as Sui-black, R/G Beats and unpowered Oath.

What more can I say? The author of this article is absolutely correct, you only have to look to the scene in Europe to see proof.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

On Sunday we had our first non-proxy Vintage Tournament in Prague. Of course there was an outcry when this was first announced. In response our local store owner/organizer wrote a superb article backing up his theory that banning proxies would double the attendance (unfortunately the article is in Czech but I will find the time to translate and post later). His main assumption was based on the statistics that on average there is double the amount of people attending the largest Vintage tournament in Europe than in the US.

Well his theory, as well as the brilliant article this thread is discussing, couldn't have been proven more correct. The attendance on Sunday was more then double than that of the best attended Proxy-Vintage Tournament of 2008. Not only were there a plethora of new faces in attendance with Power/expensive-as-hell cards, but there were a host of new (Legacy) players i've never seen before trying out decks such as Sui-black, R/G Beats and unpowered Oath.

What more can I say? The author of this article is absolutely correct, you only have to look to the scene in Europe to see proof.

So the tournament was exactly the same? That is to say it was hosted at the same time (aka if they were normally at noon on casual [no conflicting holiday/event] Saturdays this was also noon on a casual Saturday) as the usual proxie events with the same prize system and the same amount of publicity? I see absolutely no reason for a lack of proxies to attract more players considering those that physically own power (that is to say have made a larger investment of at least money if not time) should be glad to be more likely to face proxies and get a better record.

The best explanation I can see (assuming everything else was exactly the same) is that for some reason people have an irrational hate for proxies and physically try to avoid them. Thus those people are making a conscious decision to try and ruin tournaments by not appearing and as such I see no reason to pander to them.

[Mantis]

@reaperbong
The reason why the big tournaments in Europe are bigger than than the large tourneys in the US is quite simple. It's not because people like to play two different formats against each other (Legacy vs. Vintage as occurred in your shop), but it's because of geographic accessibility. Taken from Wikipedia: Density in the US: 31 ppl/km2, density in Europe: 70 ppl/km2. Also the prize payout in something like Bazaar of Moxen is frigging humongous, it's bound to attract a ton of people. Also, in Holland all of the T1 tourneys are proxied and we are part of Europe as well.

Your reasoning is completely wrong and I sincerely hope nobody will listen to you because taking out proxies from Vintage would seriously destroy the format I have grown to love so much and turn it into something where two people play with a wildly different cardpool (aka different format). It's like playing chess where black starts without it's queen but white gets to keep it, would that be much fun to play?

[reaperbong]

So the tournament was exactly the same? That is to say it was hosted at the same time (aka if they were normally at noon on casual [no conflicting holiday/event] Saturdays this was also noon on a casual Saturday) as the usual proxie events with the same prize system and the same amount of publicity? I see absolutely no reason for a lack of proxies to attract more players considering those that physically own power (that is to say have made a larger investment of at least money if not time) should be glad to be more likely to face proxies and get a better record.

yes.

The only real variable was that the entry fee was 3x the price this time. go figure?

Also there were multiple people I know who normally played with proxies that went and invested in real cards just for this tournament (2 Ichorid players now rocking real Bazaars, 1 guy I know with a brand spanking new Black Lotus)

The best explanation I can see (assuming everything else was exactly the same) is that for some reason people have an irrational hate for proxies and physically try to avoid them. Thus those people are making a conscious decision to try and ruin tournaments by not appearing and as such I see no reason to pander to them.

Indeed this is exactly the case. A lot of people that own power cards don't bother to show up because they don't want to play against proxies. That's just how it is, it is called how it is seen. But why not pander to them? They are the ones investing the money into the format and supporting the business of the shop that is hosting the tournament. You can't say that people that proxy cards are supporting any kind of business. Running a tournament is a business you know.

@reaperbong
The reason why the big tournaments in Europe are bigger than than the large tourneys in the US is quite simple. It's not because people like to play two different formats against each other (Legacy vs. Vintage as occurred in your shop), but it's because of geographic accessibility. Taken from Wikipedia: Density in the US: 31 ppl/km2, density in Europe: 70 ppl/km2. Also the prize payout in something like Bazaar of Moxen is frigging humongous, it's bound to attract a ton of people. Also, in Holland all of the T1 tourneys are proxied and we are part of Europe as well.

If the prize payout was similar in the US than that of Europe, people would bother to travel. If the prize support sucks then yea it's pretty obvious why nobody bothers. Airfare is getting dirt cheap these days, you can get a round trip ticket from LA to Chicago <<<<< a nice P9 card. In the end the game is still partly about gambling and you'd be stupid to place a bet in the current environment.

Your reasoning is completely wrong and I sincerely hope nobody will listen to you because taking out proxies from Vintage would seriously destroy the format I have grown to love so much and turn it into something where two people play with a wildly different cardpool (aka different format). It's like playing chess where black starts without it's queen but white gets to keep it, would that be much fun to play?

Not when you have prizes for best unpowered decks. There is a solution, you are just ignoring it.

[Troy_Costisick]

I can't believe someone necro'ed this thread.  Anyway, here's another thread just as long and just as passionate from a few years ago: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=23788.0

It may provide some perspective.

Peace,

-Troy

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

So the tournament was exactly the same? That is to say it was hosted at the same time (aka if they were normally at noon on casual [no conflicting holiday/event] Saturdays this was also noon on a casual Saturday) as the usual proxie events with the same prize system and the same amount of publicity? I see absolutely no reason for a lack of proxies to attract more players considering those that physically own power (that is to say have made a larger investment of at least money if not time) should be glad to be more likely to face proxies and get a better record.

yes.

The only real variable was that the entry fee was 3x the price this time. go figure?

Also there were multiple people I know who normally played with proxies that went and invested in real cards just for this tournament (2 Ichorid players now rocking real Bazaars, 1 guy I know with a brand spanking new Black Lotus)

So people paid triple the entry fee for the same prizes? That TO must have been laughing his ass off.

[reaperbong]

Less prizes actually, only Revised dual lands were offered. A Library of Alexandria was offered last tournament in 2008 and less then half showed up.

I think people more came to show their support for the banning of proxies, is that so difficult to understand? People don't want to play against proxies, end of story.

Also it doesn't take a genius to see that prize support will increase now that we know what kind of attendance to expect. This was merely a trial of sorts so the risk was kept at a minimal, based on all these naysayer opinions like yours the TO should have expected little to no attendance.

Ever hear the expression don't knock it until you've tried it?

[Chaos Lord 21]

  It's great seeing direct evidence of tournament attendance increasing by disallowing proxies, because I definitely agree with the philosophy (and no I don't currently own power; sold my set a long while back). I'm hopeful that some US tourney organizer will finally step up and get the 'nads to do the same thing. As long as it's held in a sensible location with a surrounding Vintage community, I'm willing to bet it'll be a huge success and revitalize the scene. I'm not against organizers running some infrequent proxy events to serve as a gateway into the format, but I believe the vast majority of events held should be sanctioned non-proxy. This most importantly would increase the attention and support WOTC gave Vintage, because as they've stated, the primary metric that they measure a format's popularity with is the number of sanctioned events conducted each year.

[Troy_Costisick]

I'm not against organizers running some infrequent proxy events to serve as a gateway into the format, but I believe the vast majority of events held should be sanctioned non-proxy. This most importantly would increase the attention and support WOTC gave Vintage, because as they've stated, the primary metric that they measure a format's popularity with is the number of sanctioned events conducted each year.

Let's just be clear about one thing, though.  The biggest thing holding back Vintage participation is not proxies, non-proxy events, or officially sanctioned tournements.  It's WotC's reprint policy and tactics.  Without new printings of old cards, the format cannot and will not grow.  And I don't believe FtV: Exiled or slipping a FoF or DT in a dual deck will do much to eleviate the problem unless it becomes a consistent and more proliferate method to re-introduce these cards into circulation.

Peace,

-Troy

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

  It's great seeing direct evidence of tournament attendance increasing by disallowing proxies, because I definitely agree with the philosophy (and no I don't currently own power; sold my set a long while back). I'm hopeful that some US tourney organizer will finally step up and get the 'nads to do the same thing. As long as it's held in a sensible location with a surrounding Vintage community, I'm willing to bet it'll be a huge success and revitalize the scene. I'm not against organizers running some infrequent proxy events to serve as a gateway into the format, but I believe the vast majority of events held should be sanctioned non-proxy. This most importantly would increase the attention and support WOTC gave Vintage, because as they've stated, the primary metric that they measure a format's popularity with is the number of sanctioned events conducted each year.

Why do the tournament organizers need to step up and "get nads"? Why do the players who can't afford power have to be forced to play a completely different format? Why isn't it:

The people who just "don't like" proxies should stop being asses and just play the format where everyone is having fun instead of trying to gain an unfair edge by forcing some people to play Legacy decks+4xNull Rod.

TOs risk losing money by making non-proxy events, players who can't afford power start to get pushed out of the format, but what do the haters have to lose by going to tournaments? Proxy rules SHOULD be in place to make sure they're clear and obvious so that pretty much just leaves the principle of it. I would honestly like to believe that our format is not filled with snobby asses who hate watching people have fun but if that is the case then I honestly don't know what we should do.

[Chaos Lord 21]

    I do still go to and enjoy proxy Vintage events, and had fun at the ManaDrain Open this weekend (great turnout), but nonetheless would still prefer non-proxy events given the choice, despite card accessibility issues. Perhaps because I do admittedly prefer playing budget hate decks mostly, but that's the deckbuilding technique I embraced once I liquidated my power. But more than that, proxies genuinely detract from the aesthetics of the play experience, as well as worsen the ease of correctly perceiving the gamestate (it takes enough attention under normal conditions to continually monitor such things as opponent's available mana or a Goyf's p/t without having to decipher a pile of mangled Revised basic lands). I appreciate your view that the purity of being able to play the format "freely" without card access issues trumps these concerns, but I simply differ would prefer the purity of non-proxy.
   My main point is that if sanctioned non-proxy events are a proven sustainable tournament model in Europe, I see no reason why that cannot be the case and norm here in the States.

[reaperbong]

On the contrary our local shop still holds our Friday Night Vintage once a month and these are basically unlimited proxy events, so anyone wanting to play Vintage is welcome to play and there is nothing to stop a person from trying it out. This proxy-ban was a plan to boost attendance at the prize-supported Czech Vintage Series tournaments, and it sure as hell worked.

Also consider that the opportunity to participate in an officially DCI sanctioned tournament was a big factor on attendance as well. I sure appreciated getting a email and ranking from the DCI for once.

Also for the record, although I advocate 100% banning of proxies, of course I strictly agree that WOTC need to reprint Power cards. The thing is, the more Vintage is moved to unsanctioned proxy events then the less visibility WOTC has on our format. If they will ever reprint these cards then they need to see a steady increase in sanctioned events and thus overall popularity.

[Thisson]

The best explanation I can see (assuming everything else was exactly the same) is that for some reason people have an irrational hate for proxies and physically try to avoid them. Thus those people are making a conscious decision to try and ruin tournaments by not appearing and as such I see no reason to pander to them.

Who are you to assume that people's hate for proxies is irrational?  Maybe it is perfectly rational, as I tried to explain above.  Many people were attracted to M:TG because of it's beautiful art, and to them, playing against proxies is like being forced to stare at something ugly.

I completely agree with Troy.  Wizards needs to change the reprint policy to give the newer players access to the same card mechanics without subjecting everyone to playing with hideously ugly proxies.  Otherwise, the format can only continue to contract.

[LordHomerCat]

The best explanation I can see (assuming everything else was exactly the same) is that for some reason people have an irrational hate for proxies and physically try to avoid them. Thus those people are making a conscious decision to try and ruin tournaments by not appearing and as such I see no reason to pander to them.

Who are you to assume that people's hate for proxies is irrational?  Maybe it is perfectly rational, as I tried to explain above.  Many people were attracted to M:TG because of it's beautiful art, and to them, playing against proxies is like being forced to stare at something ugly.

Personally, I think that all the cards in Shop decks are pretty hideous.  I mean, have you seen the picture on Smokestack?  Makes me want to gouge my eyes out.  People need to stop playing cards that I don't find aesthetically pleasing or this format can only continue to contract.  I am only interested in the pictures, I don't really care what the cards do as long as they look good doing it (or not doing it in many cases).

[LotusHead]

I totally applaud the non-proxy Vintage scene in Europe.

In America, banning proxies (in our non-sanctioned format) would hurt our scene.

I can't envision an enviroment where Vintage Proxies are scorned, except that I have been playing since Unlimited (before sleeves for cards were used), and I can understand the stigma of playing with "dirty proxies".

But proxies bring more players into the format in the U.S.

I've had to work to change people's attitudes locally about proxies (they are all cool with testing Standard or Extended with proxies), but I've had to show them how awesome the Vintage Format is.  With proxies, I can get 2-4 other people in my area to travel to Vintage Tournies.  Indeed, Team Vacaville has had about 10 players in rotation.  A few of which can make their own T1 deck with 10 proxies.  Without proxies, I can compete, and my buddies can get stomped by Vintage decks.

Again, big kudos to Europe for having a thriving Vintage non-proxy scene.

[yangtime]

People need to stop playing cards that I don't find aesthetically pleasing or this format can only continue to contract.  I am only interested in the pictures, I don't really care what the cards do as long as they look good doing it (or not doing it in many cases).

Jimmy, I've got my cat deck put together.  It doesn't contain as many cats as your house, but it definitely has 40 cats, which I hope is enough to please you.

[EnialisLiadon]

I totally applaud the non-proxy Vintage scene in Europe.

In America, banning proxies (in our non-sanctioned format) would hurt our scene.

I can't envision an enviroment where Vintage Proxies are scorned, except that I have been playing since Unlimited (before sleeves for cards were used), and I can understand the stigma of playing with "dirty proxies".

But proxies bring more players into the format in the U.S.

I've had to work to change people's attitudes locally about proxies (they are all cool with testing Standard or Extended with proxies), but I've had to show them how awesome the Vintage Format is.  With proxies, I can get 2-4 other people in my area to travel to Vintage Tournies.  Indeed, Team Vacaville has had about 10 players in rotation.  A few of which can make their own T1 deck with 10 proxies.  Without proxies, I can compete, and my buddies can get stomped by Vintage decks.

Again, big kudos to Europe for having a thriving Vintage non-proxy scene.

I echo this.  I'm happy that the vintage scene can thrive in Europe, one might even say "jealous."

But if it weren't for proxies, I would never play vintage.  I'm a perfectionist, and I believe that you should always play something at the highest level possible.  I hate to compete with a budget deck, simply because it's not optimal.

And to demand everyone else to drop a few grand on some old slips of cardboard because you did and you hate looking at sharpie'd plains is ridiculous.  I'll throw the poor college student argument at you:  I'm a poor college student.  But even if I were rolling in cash, I still wouldn't buy power, because I could put that money to much better uses.

Proxy tournaments are great for introducing people to the format, and probably necessary to do so.  Even a budget fish deck will severely set someone back after duals, fetches, forces, confidants and goyfs.  The only way I could introduce my friends to the awesomeness of type 1 was when there was a unlimited proxy event in Carbondale, IL.  A little under 4 hours away (my usual travel threshold is 3), but having a small group to go with was something I had never had before.

And I think the whole, "proxies make for confusing gamestates" argument would carry less weight if people put a little more effort into their proxies.  I'm not saying everyone needs to be ELD now, but a little effort goes a long way.

[Mantis]

It's completely false that there are no proxies allowed in Europe. I live in the Netherlands and all of the Vintage events allow proxies. The tournaments have a very consistent player base and usually get around 40-50 people. There are always players that show up because they can actually compete with proxies, players that would not come if proxies were not allowed. Although +50% of the player present actually owns power, I never hear complaints. It's pretty lame to try and win by having access to more powerful cards.
 
The aesthetics comment is ridiculous, people even play with Tarmogoyf.. Even a proxy looks better than that..

[Thisson]

Personally, I think that all the cards in Shop decks are pretty hideous.  I mean, have you seen the picture on Smokestack?  Makes me want to gouge my eyes out.  People need to stop playing cards that I don't find aesthetically pleasing or this format can only continue to contract.  I am only interested in the pictures, I don't really care what the cards do as long as they look good doing it (or not doing it in many cases).

You are being facetious.  Obviously, aesthetics of cards are subjective and some people think some are more attractive than others.  But that is besides the point because MOST people will agree that ****objectively speaking****, basic land cards marked over with Sharpie pens are not attractive.

Moreover, there is something illegitimate to playing with proxies.  If I'm playing with the real cards, that were expensive and/or difficult to acquire, it's almost unfair that you are able to compete against me playing cheap, easily acquired proxies.

You might not agree with these feelings, but it cannot be disputed that attendance at vintage events is slowly dwindling.  If the format is to be revived, Wizards must change its reprint policy.

[Thisson]

But if it weren't for proxies, I would never play vintage. 

So is this actually true?  If Wizards reprinted the old cards with new art, and the cards were affordable to collect, wouldn't you collect and play?  If so, it's not actually the proxies that make the format playable for you, correct(?), but rather it is the cost/availability?

[FadeToBlack]

I really haven't read much of this thread, but I'd like to drop my 2 cents...

Without proxies, I wouldn't be playing Vintage. My friends wouldn't be playing. Paying $25 to get crushed while running a budget deck gets old fast. Even if a budget deck can be competitive, it simply doesn't contain the same allure as the more powerful decks. I enjoy playing Vintage because I know that I can put together whatever deck I feel I have the best chance at winning with, and not be restricted by card choice.

That said, proxies have their pitfalls. I won a tourney last week and had the choice between store credit (that would have become a Mox) or cash. After a little thought, I took the cash. Simply put, the Mox has very little value to me. I don't need it (because of proxies), and even if I owned it, I would almost certainly case it up and build a shrine to it...not play with it. While it would be cool to own Power (as I still get excited whenever a player drops a power piece/pimp card against me), its just an unnecessary liability.

[arik124]

The argument is that having no proxies would increase attendance.  Anecdotal evidence is not helpful here.  Obviously some people would stop playing if proxies were not allowed, while others would be encouraged.  On the whole there is some evidence that player attendance would increase if there were no proxies.

As an aside:

Part of the allure of vintage is the need/desire for expensive cardboard.  If no proxies were allowed the value of power would increase.  The increase in the value of power could potentially increase attendance.  The increase in attendance would filter prizes back into the community.  This in turn would increase attendance, and so on.  J points out that he would not be able to play if proxies were not allowed.  While he cites the exceptionally high barrier to entry that vintage poses, he does not mention the exceptionally low continuance cost.  Once you have power/expensive cards, maintaining a relevant card pool is very cheap. 

Would it really be so bad to go to 5 proxy?  Perhaps even 10 but making th ELD proxies just regular proxies like at TMD?  [clearly i only have the NE meta in mind, and I am not speaking for anywhere else]
If ELD proxies don't count against your total we are effectively at 20 proxy count (or there about).  Is this a reasonable possibility for the NE TOs?

[I would like to point out that tournament size shrank after Bstrom and friends were restricted.  I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people just don't enjoy the format as a result of those changes.]

[Tha Gunslinga]

If no proxies were allowed the value of power would increase. 

Proxies actually caused the value of power to increase, paradoxical as it may seem.  I think eliminating proxies would hurt the value of power.  How it worked was:
Proxies=more people playing=more interest in vintage=more value for power.

[Nehptis]

[I would like to point out that tournament size shrank after Bstrom and friends were restricted.  I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people just don't enjoy the format as a result of those changes.]

I've owned Full Power for years now.  Proxies do not affect my enjoyment of the format.  I actually prefer them so that the playing field is level and the barrier to entry for new players is low.

The BStrom and friends restrictions didn't bother me either.  But, I am very bored and unhappy with the format right now.  The reason is Vault/Key.  An overplayed, easy to assemble, infinite turn win condition just seems like the "jump the shark moment " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark for Vintage.

[DPCyric]

The BStrom and friends restrictions didn't bother me either.  But, I am very bored and unhappy with the format right now.  The reason is Vault/Key.  An overplayed, easy to assemble, infinite turn win condition just seems like the "jump the shark moment " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark for Vintage.

Vault/Key really doesn't seem any worse to me then Flash/Ichorid/Gifts in fact it is generally slower then those decks and at Sorcery speed. Just like any big deck in Vintage it is likely a fad that will pass as the meta adjusts to it, granted I think part of the problem is all the restricted cards limiting deck options. I believe there is 9 possibly 10 cards that can come off the restricted list and it would improve the environment, not make it more degenerative.

Anyhow the general consensus seems to be that the Reserve List needs to go am I correct? If so then I think we should try to do something about it, maybe a petition? We could hit all the magic forums on the net and see if there is a very large percentage of players that would be happy if the reserve list was abolished so power/duals/etc. can be reprinted.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Anyhow the general consensus seems to be that the Reserve List needs to go am I correct? If so then I think we should try to do something about it, maybe a petition? We could hit all the magic forums on the net and see if there is a very large percentage of players that would be happy if the reserve list was abolished so power/duals/etc. can be reprinted.

No, there is no consensus.  Do you people realize that by abolishing the reserve list and reprinting power you would absolutely destroy the secondary market and in doing so destroy magic?

[urweak]

Personly, I like proxies, it gives everyone the ability to use the same card pull, not who can toss the most money at a deck. A lot of my friends stop playing magic by in the Urza's erra (but still play casual here and there), but are now comming with me to events that allow proxies since they havent bought much cards in the past 10 years. They really like the idea of proxies from their perspective, and I think thats the idea behind them, to draw in old/new players back to the format.

However, I would love to be able to play in a format without proxies at the same time in hopes of seeing more homebrew decks.

[Yare]

As long as the Reserve List exists, Vintage will be hamstrung as a format. Consequently, in spite of owning six pieces of power, I think it may be time for the Reserve List to go. I'm personally ready for Vintage to quit living in the shadows of Magic.