Noble Fish: GUW variants here!

[Guli]

Yea the idea is to target the win condition instead of the grave. Peacekeeper was just an example

Another idea is Suppression Field to target Bazaar. Will also splash damage to artifact based combo by functioning as mana denial.

[nineisnoone]

if you are going to use suppression, just be sure to use shocks and pains instead of fetches and keep it two color.  it also really limits options (korlis, crypt, cursecatcher, etc etc)

is ichorid really all that much of a problem? i mean, if you want to hate it out that's one thing, but if you just want it to be a competitive game most of the time aggro decks only need to add a minimal number of cards.  5 waste, a few self-sacrificing creatures, and the obligatory 2-3 needles in the sideboard is a very reasonable ichorid plan.  if they overboard in game 2, that's also a huge advantage for you. mostly, the long game bridges are only okay due to your creature-based nature. so you really just want to avoid having htem dread returning something crazy.  but that shouldn't be too different then dealing with Tinker.

[Stormanimagus]

Peacekeeper is garbage as 3 CMC is too slow and an upkeep of 1W is awful.

@Joel- I did bring the children in and they were not even close to enough. You need to attack ichorid from all angles and not just one. The fundamental reason that fish will have a bad matchup against ichorid is not because there is no hate to bring in, it's that you can't win fast enough to capitalize on the hate. I was able to stall games against ichorid through the timely sac of a cursecatcher, but eventually was overwhelmed by an army of 2/2 zombies. even 3 or 4 2/2 zombies can beat fish when you have nothing but a lowly Tarmogoyf sticking around to try puncturing the defensive line. Bottom line = Combo will always >>> fish at beating ichorid because it's faster and can run better hate like Yixlid Jailer + Extirpate. I think Extirpate IS good ichorid hate (contrary to popular belief) because you can remove ALL the bridges from their deck and not just the ones that have reared their ugly heads to this point in the game. That is huge in slowing down their plan of saccing for Dread Return.

@Joel- Trygon was a house all day long against Stax, but yes, not too amazing elsewhere. I suspect it would have shined with Oath (if I had faced Oath) when paired with Stifle.

[jbrauer99]

The fundamental reason that fish will have a bad matchup against ichorid is not because there is no hate to bring in, it's that you can't win fast enough to capitalize on the hate.

You are right on the money here.  This is the exact reason why stax has a hard time dealing with ichorid.  I can draw some hate(I usually run crypt), but without a way to finish them off quickly they just reload and pull the trigger.  I don’t run jailer, but my plan is usually to layer crypts via welder.  This gets interrupted by contagion or even a simple darkblast far too often, and then they just win.  I have not tried extirpate, but I really like your logic.  A good ichorid pilot will slow roll his bridges, and not commit them to the yard.  Without bridges they really have no engine, and are essentially reduced to the days of ashen ghoul beats.  Basically no bridges means dread return becomes harder to cast and has negative net worth, meaning we can deal with one threat easier than three, either by plow/path or wire/stack.  However, if we neutralize bridge they are likely to just ichorid swarm.  Ahhhhh, this matchup is a nightmare.  Anyway, it is my instinct that in these matchups ichorid is always the beatdown.  This means that we have to focus our entire game plan on control.  I am finally realizing the first thing we need to address is bridge. From there it is ichorid himself, and narco.  I am going to test extirpate, and really just test this matchup more in general.  As long as ichorid pilots are omitting leyline, I think you could have decent game with only a few minor tweaks and a solid plan.  Lets say you followed your thought on -2 SB mindcensor 1 path +3 crypt.  , Here are my suggestions:

Game 2:    -4 null rod, -3 daze, -hurks, - 3 Fow

                +4 children, + 3 crypt, +2 jitte, +2 path

If you saw LotV game 1, -1 path, -last FoW, +2 RoR, I think the predators are going to be way too slow here, but good late game to patrol the skies.

Game 3: +3/4 FoW, -3predators/something else/one other thing.

Explanations:

FoW is just card disadvantage and won’t stop bridge from doing its thing.  Game 3 they bring their unmasks back in which is the only thing I can see being important to counter turn 1.  It helps protect your hate.

Jitte will get you on the offensive once bridge is out of the picture.  I think until you get a goyf equipped with one of these, their jod should be holding down the ground defensively.

Path is there for a big troll should they be so inclined.

Again the plan here is to:

1) attack bridge, hopefully not letting a single zombie out of the underworld  (I know, really likely huh).
2) stabilize and set up ichorid defenses on the ground.
3)Equip goyf w/ jitte, and carefully switch into an offensive stance.

Your tools are:

1) cursecatcher, children, crypt, and with a lightning start jitte killing your own creatures.
2) goyf, chumps, jitte. Jitte can turn chumpers into legitimate lines of defense.
3) well, you know.

I really think that once bridge is dealt with, jitte is the key to setting up defenses and turning offensive.  I am sure there are holes in these plans, as I play workshop, but it should be a starting point.  If you are still having problems, maybe try and work the last goyf and cursecatcher in MD.  Oh, and hurkyls should definitely be echoing truth

Joel

[AmbivalentDuck]

WTF.  I had a solid Ichorid matchup with Sullivan Solution.  I regularly beat down Ichorid with 2/2s.  C'mon.

The solution to beating Ichorid is enormous amounts of hate.  I ran maindeck Extirpates, EE, Stifle, Tormod's Crypt, and 5 strip effects.  To beat Ichorid reliably without your own combo, you need to see 3+ pieces of hate by turn 4.

Looking at the lists that have actually done well at tourneys, Cursecatcher, Stifle, and 5 strip main is a good start.  Looking at the commentary provided for those lists, you'll also see that it's not enough especially with the new Fatespinner tech.  Seriously consider 4 Leylines as many Ichorid lists run no answers to them right now.

[nineisnoone]

WTF.  I had a solid Ichorid matchup with Sullivan Solution.  I regularly beat down Ichorid with 2/2s.  C'mon.

The solution to beating Ichorid is enormous amounts of hate.  I ran maindeck Extirpates, EE, Stifle, Tormod's Crypt, and 5 strip effects.  To beat Ichorid reliably without your own combo, you need to see 3+ pieces of hate by turn 4.

Looking at the lists that have actually done well at tourneys, Cursecatcher, Stifle, and 5 strip main is a good start.  Looking at the commentary provided for those lists, you'll also see that it's not enough especially with the new Fatespinner tech.  Seriously consider 4 Leylines as many Ichorid lists run no answers to them right now.

Yeah, that's the big advantage of a fish-style deck against Ichorid, you are going to run a lot more main deck hate against it than a combo deck would. 

And, I just don't really buy the speed argument.... because that is the SAME point you can bring up against ANY deck.  Combo is always faster, and if you won't be happy with the match-up until you win as fast as a Combo deck would, then you should be playing a Combo deck. 

Would you really run Leyline?  There are just so many more versatile cards and I think it'd hurt you in the overall scheme of things more than it'd help you.

[jbrauer99]

WTF.  I had a solid Ichorid matchup with Sullivan Solution.  I regularly beat down Ichorid with 2/2s.  C'mon.

The solution to beating Ichorid is enormous amounts of hate.  I ran maindeck Extirpates, EE, Stifle, Tormod's Crypt, and 5 strip effects.  To beat Ichorid reliably without your own combo, you need to see 3+ pieces of hate by turn 4.

Looking at the lists that have actually done well at tourneys, Cursecatcher, Stifle, and 5 strip main is a good start.  Looking at the commentary provided for those lists, you'll also see that it's not enough especially with the new Fatespinner tech.  Seriously consider 4 Leylines as many Ichorid lists run no answers to them right now.

Yeah, that's the big advantage of a fish-style deck against Ichorid, you are going to run a lot more main deck hate against it than a combo deck would. 

And, I just don't really buy the speed argument.... because that is the SAME point you can bring up against ANY deck.  Combo is always faster, and if you won't be happy with the match-up until you win as fast as a Combo deck would, then you should be playing a Combo deck. 

Would you really run Leyline?  There are just so many more versatile cards and I think it'd hurt you in the overall scheme of things more than it'd help you.

But the downside is after you've used that hate, your slow clock gives them time to reassemble position.  Without any hate at all, combo can just race, especially ad nauseam.  Also, of course "enormous amounts of hate" can win you games against ichorid, but not without weakening you to the field.  Noah did very well against the field until he ran into ichorid, and we don't want to compromise the integrity of his deck in order to win that matchup.  The key is to utilize what is already present as much as possible, and go from there.  I think, as Noah suggests, adding crypts where sideboard space permits is the first step.  If this is not enough, then more extreme measures may be warranted.  U guys are right that fish decks in general have good MD options, but we don't want to overdo it.  I believe Cursecatcher was on the cutting block.  Maybe he has earned his stay.

[nineisnoone]

but i mean that's the same statement you can make when you compare ad nauseum to fish in general.  it just seems like a non-point since in every match-up, combo has the option of just comboing out and ignoring the other deck.  it's no different than playing against ichorid, other combo decks, shops, or whatever. i don't see it as being a special point against ichorid.

[jbrauer99]

but i mean that's the same statement you can make when you compare ad nauseum to fish in general.  it just seems like a non-point since in every match-up, combo has the option of just comboing out and ignoring the other deck.  it's no different than playing against ichorid, other combo decks, shops, or whatever. i don't see it as being a special point against ichorid.

Sorry, you're right. I think what we were getting at is the relative amounts of hate needed against ichorid based on clock.  A deck like ad nauseam could probably run 0 hate and have a decent shot of out goldfishing them.  TPS will want to run some, but only needs to trip them up long enough to execute its combo. Of course, even TPS needs to run a fairly robust hate package, as ichorid pretty much maintains the second fastest clock in vintage. Fish has to apply continuous pressure on their strategy, like it does in other matchups, in order to buy enough time to reach the red zone.  This is particularly challenging because ichorid operates in such a unique way.  A lot of fish disruption doesn't touch it.

[nineisnoone]

 i'm kinda de-railing the topic here. i guess i just don't see it as being that bad. obviously, faster decks have better match-ups. but there are plenty of options imo to make it a solid match-up. it's just like is the case is always with fish decks, it depends on how much you build it into your deck.

jotun, korlis, jav, relic, curse, waste, needle, trinket, etc etc are all really solid main deck options in general. there really aren't a lack of options, it's just a matter of choosing to play them or not. Stormanimagus himself admitted that he didn't have any real ichorid hate in the SB. 

you can only run so many cards. like running the predators is, imo, a wholly unnecesary move.  but if it was a workshop deck instead of an ichorid deck he ran into. he'd have made the right move. instead he hit ichorid and it was the wrong move.

[AmbivalentDuck]

There is no 'recovering' from Extirpate on Narcomoeba followed by anything else that makes real tempo.  Of course it's easier to find an answer to Pithing Needle than it is to Research rfg-ed cards back into their library.  In fact, that's so hard that nobody does it.

Also, you have to know how to play your deck.  Ie.  Only using Crypt/Relic in response to triggers that will do something relevant.  They don't run Krosan Grip!  Knowing that saccing a creature in response to a Bridge trigger will stop the zombies from coming into play.  Knowing that they typically board out most of the Dread Return portion of their deck g2.  Knowing that you can respond to a Narcomoeba trigger with Extripate and friends.

I've been testing Nataz's Ichy build online recently and I've noticed that people just leave when they find out I've got Ichorid.  They're dumb.  Simple as that.  Yes, I'll win g1.  g2 and g3 are usually very interactive and skill testing for both players. 

Moral of the story: test against Ichorid.

[Harlequin]

I think the problem is that most people here don't really understand the match-up.  Lets take a look at a few quotes:

ibrauer99 is on the right track, however I disagree with the choices he makes for board outs. 

The solution to beating Ichorid is enormous amounts of hate.  I ran maindeck Extirpates, EE, Stifle, Tormod's Crypt, and 5 strip effects.  To beat Ichorid reliably without your own combo, you need to see 3+ pieces of hate by turn 4... Looking at the lists that have actually done well at tourneys, Cursecatcher, Stifle, and 5 strip main is a good start.

[when you compare ad nauseum to fish]  it just seems like a non-point since in every match-up, combo has the option of just comboing out and ignoring the other deck.  it's no different than playing against ichorid, other combo decks, shops, or whatever. i don't see it as being a special point against ichorid.

jotun, korlis, jav, relic, curse, waste, needle, trinket, etc etc are all really solid main deck options in general. there really aren't a lack of options, it's just a matter of choosing to play them or not. Stormanimagus himself admitted that he didn't have any real ichorid hate in the SB. 

So the -only- thing I think the posters here agree on is: We can't Race Ichorid like other combo decks can.  The answer to what we do is a bit up in the air.

On day 2 I played a nearly Identical deck to Noah, and I beat Ichorid in top-8 to progress to top-4 (where I lost to getting out goyfed).  I've played both sides of the Icorid v Fish match so below is my mini-primer on how Selkie-Strike in particular should plan on facing Icorid.   Alot of the information here is a little reduntant with what has already been said, but having it all in one place can't hurt.

=================================================================
Pre-board against Ichorid, you have 1 "main" plan for winning: Go first, Play Island.  The activate bazaar, you stifle.  Turn 2 play waste, kill bazaar. 

Die Roll, Island, Stifle, Waste.  That's living the dream against Ichorid Game 1.  Anything outside of that is going to be a crapshoot.  Remember that Ichorid is a deck that can implode on itself sometimes.  With luck on your side you might be able to edge out a win.  But let's focus on game 2 and 3...

Post Board: here is my deck --

16 Fetch, color lands, Mox, Lotus
4 waste, strip
4 Noble Hierrarch
4 Meddling Mage
3 Goyf
3 Trygon Preditors
4 Force
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Recall, Timewalk
1 Misdrrection
1 Psionic Blast
4 Children of Korlis (SB)
2 Tormod's Crypt (SB)
1 Relic of Progenitus (SB)
2 Jitte (SB)
2 Swords to Plow (SB)
-----------
3 Aven Minsensors (stay in SB)
4 Cold Eye'd Selkie (from MD)
4 Null Rod (from MD)
1 Trygon Preditor (1 SB)
1 Merchant Scroll (from MD)
2 Hurkyls (from MD)

A few things to note: 
- Notice no "control" cards got boarded out, just selkies, rods, and hurkyls.  Don't fool yourself into boarding out force, misD, or daze.
- I only need 3 graveyard sweepers deditcated to this match, the rest comes from overlap hate from other matches.

Ok so with this "little" (11 cards) amount of Ichorid hate, what is the game plan?  We can't race them like a comode deck, so we need a different attack.  Our attack is two fold, we need to win two small wars to win a game. 
> The first war is to remove bridges without letting zombies get out of control.  Here we need to control the flow of zombies into play.  At all costs don't let zombie tokens hit early.  Use children of Korlis and GY sweepers to clear up briges ASAP.  The have almost no control over how many bridges land in the yard.  Sometimes you get lucky, you have children in play and they dredge 3 briges into the yard in one dredge.  However, if you have to remove each bridge one at a time, you're probabl in trouble.  In the early war, getting dredge to overcommit is actually to your benefit.  If you can RFG the bridges, you are more than 75% of the way to a win.  It will likely cost you life to get here, so having zombies around on the ground can be problematic if you need to stablize at < 5 life.  Another thing to consider is when you avoid zombie build up, dread return should not be an issue.
> The second war is to not die to the actual Ichorids, and any other beaters left in the deck (nacro's or even hardcast thugs or stinkies). Don't let them build up enough to dread return a troll unless you can answer it. 

>> Ichorid is one of the only decks where "not losing" actually -is- the same as winning.  You will eventually exaust them of black creatures to feed ichorid returns.  If they don't scoop, you will eventually either deck them, or build up enough ground defense to start swinging.  I would say go for the decking plan especially if you are at low life.  You don't want a top-deck contagion to take out the 1 guy you left as a blocker if you are greedily swining.  At most you should only be swinging with one guy carring Jitte.

Lets look at some of the cards in the deck:

4 Stifle is an MVP in this match.  Its like your Ichorid-Force-of-will.  You can stifle ~almost~ everything in the deck.  Most importantly: Bazaar activations, and Nacromeba Triggers.  Note that stifling Ichorid stifles the entire ability, they don't have to tell you if they intend to 'pay' for the ichorid or not.  What you can stifle is Ichorid's death trigger.  You can make Ichorid live until your EOT which may buy you that critical turn to RFG briges.  The other use of stifle is to muscle your tormod's crypts into play through a chalice for 0 by countering the chalice trigger.

2 Crypts, and 1 Relic.  I like one relic in the board for other matches.  But Crypt to Relic ratio asside, these cards are also clearly MVPs.  However, they are cards you have to learn to play.  One mistake alot of players make is to try and 'Maximize' thier one crypt, by forgoing thier first chance to crypt something away in the hopes of getting a jucier crypt later.  Personally I fire the thing off as soon as there is a threat in the yard (one bridge plus one triggered Narco is more than enough for me).  This way you avoid using it on thier terms because of grudge, chain, etc. 

4 Children of Korlis.  An anti-tendrils slot spesifically filled with a creature useful against Icorid.  This gives you very fast and efficent ways to remove bridges.  Sometimes in addition to being a targeted removal for bridges it can also act as a fog effect by negating a single swing in the process.  Crypts, Relic and Children make up your primary defenses against bridge.

4 Force, 1 MisD, 3 Daze.  All very powerful.  remember they are bringing in hate against you.  Most of it is targeted hate.  Cabal therepy is targeted too. And they don't run alot of mana so Daze basically stays a hard counter most of the game.  Ichorid ~can~ win without casting a single spell.  But game 2 they are boarding most of that out in favor of spells to avoid hate.

4 Meddling Mage.  Again a card that most people overlook at face value against Ichorid.  Mage naming Cabal Therepy (and/or Dread Return) is extremely powerful... not because Cabal Therepy's effect is good, but because it makes the spell unable to be cast - thus taking away a sacrifice outlet.  Meddling Mage on Therepy helps ensure that Nacros don't suddenly become 2-3 zombies.

2 Swords to Plow and 2 Jitte.  These are your primary to combat Ichorid (the card).  With any luck they will be down to 3 Ichorids post board, to make room for hate.  Being able to plow an Ichorid early will make both the zombie-control and stay alive phases easier.  Getting Jitte down and active will seal the game once the bridges are gone.  Psiblast to a certain extent works here too. 

3 Preditors.  Preditors are not crucial to the match, but they shouldn't be overlooked.  If you are lucky enough to take all the bridges early, you may still need to worry about Nacromeba and possibly even Stinkweed beats.  They also are good blue pitches early... seeing as how post board blue cards worth pitching are low.  They also can kill chalice if you somehow get stuck behind a chalice for 0, or even worse a chalice for 1.  Lastly they are a prime cantidate for Jitte-weilding.

3 Tarmogoyfs.  Goyf in this deck is there to be your huge wall.  Remeber that racing is not an option in this match, so survival is the goal.  Gofy will likely be a 5/6 very quickly which is great (6 - 1 for no enchantments because they are hopefully all RFGed).  Even with both Contagion counters hes a 1/4 perfect for Ichorid defense.  However he doesn't do anything much to promote the Anti-bridge part of the stratigy (other than block and kill tokens).  So don't value him too highly in the early game, something like Meddling Mage on therepy is must stronger than goyf on turn 2 or 3.



In my match with Ichorid in Top-8 Here is a little report:
Game 1 - I didn't have stifle, but I had waste land and daze, and I think a meddling mage.  I drop the land and pass.  He plays Bazaar taps it and puts 3 non-dredgers in the yard.  Hooray for me!  this is basically the same as living the stifle dream.  I think I daze a lotus petal or something.  Next turn I waste bazaar and he never really gets back in the game.  I think at one point he cracks a colesium and wiffed on Nacromebas so he couldn't get any zombies and lost.  I see he runs chalice.

Game 2 - I have stifle, tormods, and some lands.  No creatures of relevance.  So I can stifle my crypt through chalice if I need to.  He unmasks my crypt.  I draw many stifles, but no wastelands or chidlren and I get slammed.

Game 3 - pans out exactly as I outlined above.  I have a turn 1 stifle followed by an early children.  He flips about 1/3 of his deck on his turn and hits 3 bridges.  I'm able to RFG 3 without zombies.  I'm stuck on 1 mana for a while.  He gets his 4th bridge and has 1 ichorid online.  I wasted his bazaar so he is forced to make tough decisions to dredge stinky or return ichorid and draw a card.  He opts to feed Ichorid and I'm able to keep killing zombies with goyf.  Eventually I stablize at 7 life when I use a children to remove the last bridge.  Now its goyf vrs 2 Ichorids, hes back to 7 in hand so he can dredge every turn and discard EOT.  Eventually I get Jitte down and am able to use Hierrarch to swing exaulted into an empty board to get jitte counters while goyf guards to homeland.  Jitte ramps up to enough counters for a huge +12/+12 lethal swing.

[waywreth]

Tried the deck last night in the weekly Scholars event.  While it was fun, I ended up with only a 2-2 record on the night (which was really 1-3 since someone scooped to me since they were mathematically out of it anyway).

Rd1 vs. GW Aggro
Not a great matchup for me, but not terrible.  It helps that I've played him many times and know the majority of his deck.  Eventually I get run over by Knight of the Relinquary Game 1.  Game 2 goes more my way with Daze keeping him off balance, followed by Meddling Mage naming important creatures.  Game 3 is a debacle.  I waste his first land, he wastes my next 2, and I never see another land.  I had to mull to 6 game 1, and mull to 5 game 3.
Games  1-2, Matches 0-1

Rd2 vs. Oath
At first I feared this match, but then I realized I have a ton of hate cards in the deck.  Game 1 was all me, stifling his first two lands, dazing his first play, and dropping one Meddling Mage on Oath, and a second on Echoing Truth.  Game 2 was almost as bad.  I sided in my Krosan Grip and Seal of Primordium (played over the Trygon Predator and one Children of Korlis in the SB).  I Mis'd his Ancestral on turn one, dropped a pair of mages and Seal by turn three.
Games 3-2, Matches 1-1

Rd3 vs. Tezz
My kingdom for a Null Rod!  Three games and I didn't see one. Anyway, Game 1 was all mine off an early Goyf, with sufficient backup in the form of FoW, Daze and Stifle.  Game two was back and forth, we were playing off the top, and he ended up drawing key with Vault in play, Game 3 was a mull to 6 and a Meddling Mage name Tezz (he had 5 mana in play by turn 2).  Of course he had Vault/Key with counter backup anyway.
Games 4-4, Matches 1-2

Rd4 vs. Goblins
Game 1 went poorly as he had turn 1 Lackey.  I slowed him down but ended up behind the whole game.  Game 2 I had a Meddling Mage on turn 2 with a Jitte attached, he had no land after I stifled his only fetch.  Game 3 was another mulligan, saw one land and no more.
Games 5-6, Matches 1-3

Overall I think the deck has potential, but needs something more for the Tezz matchup.  Beyond me drawing more Null Rods, I was thinking that the Dazes might work better as Negate.  This does require you to keep more mana open, and I may add one more land (Tundra or Trop).

[Harlequin]

Those are brutial pairings.  Any non-blue aggro/beats deck certainly puts you on your heals. The losses to WG and Goblins is unfortainly... expected.  Tezz should be a good match, but as you noticed it really hinges on Null Rod.  It sounds like your opponent out top-decked you which just happens sometimes. 

As for mage naming Tezz in game 3, I would have named differently.  Even if he dropped a tezz on turn 2, if he tutors for vault you can just kill him with mage.  If he doesn't then no problem.  You have Avens and null rods to combat the infinite turns.  Early mages against Tezz are important you need to name either drain (weaker post board because they may have boarded 1-2 out) or whatever draw engine they run (Thirst, or AK), If they have a small hand, I name tinker unless I have my hurkyls or avens near by.  The reason I care about hand size is that if they rip DT or something off the top, they will likely go for Tinker->Inkwell against rod fish over trying to assemble the combo assuming they don't have anything.

It looks like you mulliganed alot.  The deck is decidedly low on lands running only 20.  But you should have a full set of Hierrarchs to suppliment the low land counts.  I never side out hierrarchs simply because there arn't enough lands in the deck without him.  I also only run 3 wastes to make room for 16 colored sources (including lotus and mox).  If you find you need the extra land, I could totally see that but I would suggest going to 6 fetchs because you need green game 1 and white game 2-3... generally speaking.

[waywreth]

I agree on the pairings.  I expected to lose the goblins match, and the GW aggro match I could've won (until I realized he had Factories which just makes it worse)  I was happy to take them to 3 games.
As soon as I named Tezz in game 3 I knew it was a mistake, because even if he played a Tezz and searched up Time Vault I could attack the Tezz.

My mana base was:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

I think most of the mulliganing was simply just poor luck on my part.  I didn't mulligan that often in practice.  However in the event I often had the singleton island as my only land (with no daze/stifle) or Tundra and Heirarch in hand.  And like you, I never boarded out the Heirarch.  I'll definately try the deck again at some point in the future, and report back in.

[nineisnoone]

Harlequinn:  I definitely agree with your strategy for the most part. 

3 Preditors.  Preditors are not crucial to the match, but they shouldn't be overlooked.  If you are lucky enough to take all the bridges early, you may still need to worry about Nacromeba and possibly even Stinkweed beats.  They also are good blue pitches early... seeing as how post board blue cards worth pitching are low.  They also can kill chalice if you somehow get stuck behind a chalice for 0, or even worse a chalice for 1.  Lastly they are a prime cantidate for Jitte-weilding.

Honestly, I'd rather have a Selkie drawing cards than a Predator chump blocking to Stinkweed or Nacromeba.  Neither option is really great, but that's where I stand.

I really don't see them shutting of their own Therapies with Chalice for 1.  Killing Chalice for 0 seems a bit trivial, as if by the time you get 3 mana + an attack phase you haven't played sufficient hate against them, it's probably too late.

I'm just a bit amiss at some of the card choices here...

1 Psionic Blast?
2 Hurkylls Recall?
3 Mindcensors in the SB?
4th Predator in the SB?

I'm not sure what you are looking for in those cards, but I just don't particularly care for this SB.  Since you run Scroll, I'd rather run Echoing Truth/Chain of Vapor/Wipe Away.  Any of these would be obv, better against Ichorid. I have no idea with Psionic could be for....  I don't see a Match-up where I'd want to sideboard in Mindcensor, barring maybe Tezz, but if that's what it's for I would just play Pithing Needles.  The 4th Predator, I'm assuming Shop?, just seems excessive.  I've enjoyed Elvish Scrapper, which can hit a key stacks piece, plays for much cheaper (relevant under LD), works at quasi-instant speed which is miles better in the Tezz match-up, and sometimes removes bridges against Ichorid.

[Harlequin]

I'll walk you through how I built the deck...

20 mana (including 4 strip effects, 3 mox, and lotus)
15 Noble, Selkie, Mage, Goyf
15 Force, Stifle, Rod, Daze
2  Recall, Timewalk

That is pretty much the core deck "Selkie-Strike" With 8 debatable slots.

Lets just take a look at that 52 card deck, and think about its match-ups.

- Anything with Islands and Full Moxen: Favorable.  To a point*
There's no escaping that this deck is spesifically designed to prey on drain decks.  Where there are islands there are fetches.  Everything in the core deck is focused on attacking a typical 'drain' deck. 
* the real danger card here is Tinker.  Tinker for DSC or Inkwell are both equally bad.  And as of right now we don't have a good answer outside naming a restricted card with meddling mage. 
-- Tezzeret: even more favorable.
As a subclass of drain decks, Tezz is particularly vulnerable to our null rod plan.  With an average amount of early disruption followed by a Selkie this should already be our ideal match.
-- Painter: less favorable.
Another drain subclass, that is influenced by maindeck REBs.  The REBs can give us some pain however we should be able to still easily win this match.
-- Remora: favorable.
We can creature our way right past thier primary draw engine, and dodges comandeer.  A Selkie on the board evens up the card advantage off Meditate, and on top of that we have stifle for sower.
-- Oath: (with the 52 card deck) unfavorable
With our core deck we really have nothing to combat oath other than Meddling Mage, which often requires some good scouting.  We have no outs to Oath of Druids, and no outs to any creatures they pop in.  But thats ok for now, remember we still have 8 slots left in the deck.
-- Ad Nause Combo: even~ish, likely unfavorable.
Against ANT with the maindeck cards we have, this match will likely be a blow-out in someone's favor.  Mage and Rod are huge here.  Daze can come outa nowhere and really screw up thier plans, and an early hit with goyf can cripple the ability to just ad naus deep and win easy.  however they are lightning fast and have free disruption... so you may be dead with a full grip of 2 mana answers on turn 1.
-- TPS combo: more even than ANT but still likely unfavorable.
TPS is more resilant to hate, but they give you a little more time to astablish hate.  You want them to hold back on force so you can try and get rods and mages to stick.  If you can land a selkie, they will likely try and go off before you can gain any sort of advantage.  This desparation may end up winning your the game - or you might just lose.
-- Blue/x Fish decks: Likely Favorable
There are many U/xy fish decks out there with hunderds of playable cards.  So claiming a blanket 'Favorable' is unrealistic.  However, with Nobles and Goyfs you should be able to go toe-to-toe with most Fish style decks.  Also your selkies are unblockable here so you have a GREAT out to stalemate situations.  So I would say on the average its in your favor, but there are certain unfovable fish builds out there.

Non-Island Decks:  Generally unfavorable (esp for the 52 card deck we run)
-- Shop Prison (stax and its kin):  Unfavorable. 
The deck we have now really can't deal with multiple tangles or recurring waste.  We will just get burried under lock peices with all our sorcery speed threats
-- Shop Agro: Even worse!
Add to that trikes, and Moon-lock!  We really don't have anything to combat them.  The only hope we have here is they keep a "drain hate" hand full of thorns and we drop an early noble followed by Mage naming Rod.
-- Non-blue Agro/Fish: Bleah!
Just bad all around, we really just want to get down noble + goyf so we can out-muscle them.
-- Hardcore combo (like belcher): Somewhat even or slightly favorable.
If you can land null rod, or get some really detrimental early dazes you shouldn't have too much difficulty here.  But like ANT if its over before you can play a threat there isn't much you can do.  The big advantage here is they likely don't have any way to answer you just dropping a Rod (where storm has many more outs).
-- Ichorid: Likely unfavorable, but again you can blow them out.
As I said in my previous post ~ Die Roll, Island, Stifle, Waste = GG (hopefully).  If you're not living the dream you probably losing.


Wildcard Decks: Not as bad as it could be... but probably unfavorable.
With the 52 cards we have, we can't "answer" anything outside of knowing what to name with Mage. 

So 8 slots left, what do we need to consider:
- Drains = good ...
... but Tinker = Bad
- Oath = bad
- Combo = ? swings hevily on random factors
- Ux Fish = probably good
- Shops = Bad
- non-blue aggro = bad
- non-blue combo = ? highly random
- Ichorid = bad unless you live the dream

When we look at it just on paper you might think "only 2 good matches that's terrible!" but remember than 'Drains' and 'Ux Fish' cover a very broad range of decks and a huge chunk of the meta.  So lets make a plan for these 8 slots:

~ Combo ~ should we even bother?
In my oppinion there is only ONE deck that actually can claim 'favorable' for combo game one.  That is Remora.  Remora packs the highest number of turn0 counters if they lose the roll AND an amazing 4-of ONE drop if they win the roll.  Having a '?' against combo is about the best any deck can hope for.  We have plenty of maindeck tools to combat combo, including extra pitch-counters in the form of Daze.  So we'll worry about this slot later.

Oath, Shops, and Random Junk
Stifle agianst oath is garbage.  Its timewalk at best, but if you don't follow it up with something amazing the oath player won't give a crap about stifle.  So don't let people tell you that Stifle is an answer to Oath - UNLESS we can add something to destroy/remove oath.  This brings me to why I absolutly love Trygon Preditor.  Trygon gives you a single card answer to both Oath and Shops of any flavor.  Its also a creature to dodge thorn, and being a blue card is a nice perk for other match-ups where Selkie and Mage are at a premium.  Stifle alone isn't enough to stop oath, Trygon alone isn't fast enough to stop oath; but the combination of the two are much greater than the sum of the parts. 

With 3 Preditors we have our "random stuff removal" but we still don't have any real creature removal.  So lets consider our last 5 slots.

What types of creatures are in vintage:
> Smalltime 'Beats' or welders
>> effective answers: board sweepers, possibly E-truth
>> Do we care?  Not unless its Magus, or possibly welder.
With our Trygon buddies joining team-dudes, we shouldn't really need to worry about 'beats.'  Also most of the board sweepers we would run are turned off by null rod anyway (EE, Keg).  But we need something to answer Magus of the Moon that is better than pre-empt a Noble and pray he lives.

> Goyf (and to a lesser extent Joten or Negator)
>> effective answers: Swords, our Goyfs + Noble!
>> do we care?  To an extent, we do.
We have our own goyfs, so we should hopefully be able to compete with them. 

> Tinker Creatures
>> effective answers: targeted bounce*, swords*, Artifact sweepers, Mindcensor
>> Do we care? Hell yeah!
Remeber Drains only reliable out against us is Tinker.  We can't call ourself a meta deck without acknowloging this issue.  The real thorn in our side right now is Inkwell.  Inkwell renders our targted bounce or removal useless.  I tested versions this deck extensively against Tezz running Inkwell where I ran swords to plow - and I could tell you who won the match simply by asking "did a tinker resovle?"  out of countless games almost 90% of the games supported "if tezz tinkered they won, and if tezz didn't tinker they lost." A change had to be made...

> Oath creatures
>> Effective answers: sometimes targeted removal, but most effective answer is don't let them oath!
>> Do we care?  Not when considering removal...
We just added Trygon to make stifle amazing.  really we need to just not let them oath and we should be fine.  I don't mind conceding to oath if they resolve an oath trigger.  At that point they have won.

So from the looks of things we want to include:
- Hurkyls to answer tinker and further bolster our Shop Lock match
- And possibly some sort of pin-point removal for goyfs
-- Also It would be great to get another few pitch-counters in the deck, the original list I tested has 2 misdirrects to back up the forces and dazes - I really liked them, especially against combo. 
-- we also want to consider that we don't have any tutors, so whatever we add can't really be a one-of without hurting consistancy

So the 'perfect' package statistically would be something like:
2-3 Hurkyls
2-3 Swords to Plowshare
2 Misdirrections

That unfortunately puts us over 60 cards.. even if we run them all as 2-ofs.   So, the wheels started turnning and in a moment of clairity I came up with the following:

2 Hurkyls
1 Psionic Blast
1 Misdirrection
1 Merchant scroll

Merchant scroll becomes the pinch hitter for so many of my removal cards.  this gives me essentially:
3 Hurkyls
2 Psionic Blasts

The more I thought about it the more I liked Psionic Blast over swords to plowshare.  With 3 total ways to draw into Tinker answers, I'm more concerned with removing small creatures like Goyf, Welder, Confidant, and Magus of the Moon.  Psiblast works well against all of these cards, and is BETTER as an answer to Moon so long as I tutor my basic island early.  It means I don't need to have previously resolved Noble.  I can draw into Merchant scroll, then tutor for Psiblast for next turn. 

I won't claim that Merchant scroll -is- a 6th pitchcounter however I have tutor for Force to protect an resolved Mages and Rods.  And I have done exactly that.  So it can act as one late game but on turn zero it obviously doesn't count.  The other ineresting play is if your opponent uses scroll to get thier recall but doesn't have the mana to cast it, you can scroll for MisD, and make them sweat for a while.  I've also used it to tutor for Stifle against Ichorid game 1 to steal the game.
 
Finally there's always the Scroll for Recall which is generally a good play in any match.  Meaning scroll is never dead, like STP sometimes could be.

Now... Back to Combo ~
So we've filled up the deck, and we still haven't truely revisited combo.  We added the Misdirrect which is definately good.  Its a great 'counter' to Pact of Negation.  Scroll is iffy at best against them, ANT will blow right past it, but against TPS we might be able to use it to grab force or recall. 

The big card we're missing here is Curse Catcher.  I feel like curse catcher is just weaker than other plays the deck already has.  On turn 1 I need to keep stifle mana open, or cast noble if I don't have stifle.  Then on turn 2, I need to make a 2 drop of Rod or Mage.  After turn 2-3 curse catcher has lost his effectiveness.  If I had 'free' space in the deck to put a few in, he is certainly next in line.  But as is, I really prefer to use my final 8 slots making my worse matches better rather than making my best matches a little better. 

I'm outa steam for my sideboard choices, but to answer your two spesific questions:
Mindcensor x3 is the only 3 cards I bring in against Tezz.  what goes out depends on if I'm on the play or draw (but usually is a mix of dazes and stifles).  They also make an appearance against TSP combo (usually not against ANT).
The 4th preditor comes in against Remora, Oath, and of course Shops.  Aslo is a safty net against random crazy decks like affinity or I don't know Replenish... its just a good solid all around hoser.

[urweak]

So I need some help with my sideboard. This is what I have right now.

SB:
3x Energy Flux
2x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Echoing Truth
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Swords to Plowshares
3x Windborn Muse

Let me talk about the cards, Energy Flux usally comes in vs Shop/Stax stuff and Slaver/other artifact heavy decks, the same is true for Kataki. I usally side out 4x Canonist for the those 4-5 cards.

Echoing Truth is for Ichorid and Oath. For Oath I usally try and get out a Canonist first, and just keep them from playing Oath by bouncing it, or countering it. For Ichorid I use it to bounce Zombie Tokens. And then it fills gaps for random aggro bouncing some of their critters.

Crypt and Relic are just for Ichorid, I never seem to want to side them in for stuff with Goblin Welder or to keep Yawg Will at bay.

Swords is for Goblin Welder and other decks featuring creatures.

Windborn Muse is for Ichroid and aggro decks.

With all that said, I really like Windborn Muse, Kataki, War's Wage, and Swords to Plowshares. Some so so cards are Echoing Truth and Energy Flux. Then the Relics and Crypts are there just for Ichorid so I need them, but im not excited about them at the same time.

My biggest problem right now seems to be Ichorid and Stax, everything else seems to be a good match up for the most part. I would like to improve these match ups but dont know what to remove to make some room. Some ideas were cut a Energy Flux/Echoing Truth for a Hurklys Recall. Maybe run some type of enchantment to help with Ichorid. Maybe something else I havent thought of. Does anyone have suggestions for me? Also, should I take out the Swords for Path to Exile?

Since my deck list is different from the ideas in this thread (it playes alot different i think), ill post it

Creatures:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Augury Adept
2x Trygon Predator
1x Darksteel Colossus

Spells:
4x Force of Will
3x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Daze
2x Mana Leak
2x Misdirection
1x Tinker
1x Brainstorm
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall

Artifacts:
4x Null Rod
1x Sol Ring
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire

Lands:
3x Wasteland
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Island
2x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
1x Plains
1x Strip Mine

[Mantis]

Energy Flux and Kataki are incredibly weak against Stax or Shop Aggro. The reason; the artifacts that you actually care about will stick around as your opponent will shelve out 1 or 2 mana for those. Also, Tolarian Academy and Goblin Welder basically forego Flux. Targetted removal works a lot better and stuff like Serenity, Ancient Grudge, Shattering Spree and to lesser extent Sacred Ground and Aura of Silence help you win the attrition war against Stax much more. Trygon Predator is a huge bomb against any Shop deck as well, I'm terribly afraid of those actually.

Energy Flux is only good with Null Rod and with those both out it means 2 of your manasources are locked as well.

EDIT: This just came to mind: Against a deck like Stax, 3 mana is a lot. I mean they lock you out with Wastes, Smokestack, Tangle Wire and Spheres, so it's likely that you will have to play Flux with Artifact mana. That means your artifact mana now acts as Lotus Petals and that sucks. Flux affects your board position as well. Also, Shops often play REB which can destroy the Flux at any convient time.

I'm not trying to say that Energy Flux is horrible and will never do anything to help you win against Stax, but there are a ton of cards I'm much more afraid of seeing than Energy Flux.

[nineisnoone]

Energy Flux and Kataki are incredibly weak against Stax or Shop Aggro. The reason; the artifacts that you actually care about will stick around as your opponent will shelve out 1 or 2 mana for those. Also, Tolarian Academy and Goblin Welder basically forego Flux.

But that's why you have 5 Wastes + Counters.  I'll take 1 card annihilating their entire deck except for 1 land and maybe another 4x creatures any day.

Windborn Muse is for Ichroid and aggro decks.

Windborn Muse is way too slow for Ichorid.  I am of the opinion that 3 is only sometimes useful, but 4 mana is asking a lot.  And if you can slow them that far down, you might as well play something else.  Most aggro will run Swords or something else as well so I'm not sure how great it is there either.

There really aren't great answer to both decks.  Jotun would be my best guess.

Oath, Shops, and Random Junk
Stifle against oath is garbage.  Its timewalk at best, but if you don't follow it up with something amazing the oath player won't give a crap about stifle.  So don't let people tell you that Stifle is an answer to Oath - UNLESS we can add something to destroy/remove oath.  This brings me to why I absolutly love Trygon Preditor.  Trygon gives you a single card answer to both Oath and Shops of any flavor.  Its also a creature to dodge thorn, and being a blue card is a nice perk for other match-ups where Selkie and Mage are at a premium.  Stifle alone isn't enough to stop oath, Trygon alone isn't fast enough to stop oath; but the combination of the two are much greater than the sum of the parts.

I agree Stifle isn't good against Oath.

To be honest, I never really saw the whole Predator as an answer to Oath thing.  Though I know some people have had good experience with it.  Predator is slower that Oath in terms of mana AND in terms of game play, i.e.  you have to play it before they Oath if you want to destroy the Oath before it activates.  Not to mention Oath could always just bounce your Predator or play double Oath (or Oath + Time Walk) if they see it. Not really updated on what current Oath lists look like but I'm sure it'll run a tutor package, Time Walk, and at least one bounce spell.

He's fine against Shop, but unless you really need the body (and you have plenty of creatures) Mystic + Scroll + Hurkyl's/Rebuild should be plenty. I also think you touch on a very important point that in your analysis that Predator doesn't answer.  Sorcery speed.  Tangle Wire is the standard anti-aggro Shop card, and Predator doesn't answer it (unless you can tap out and still have something free to attack... but in that case the point is moot because you can just attack them to death anyways).  It also loses to Trisk, the other standard anti-aggro card. 

Not sure what your mana base is, but if you can support it I'd main deck the Mindcensors (I think you are overrating your Tezz match-up). 

Just not a big fan of Psionic Blast. For 3 mana and 2 (?) life, I'd want it to do more than that.  In white, I like Javlineers (which can do something against Ichorid by self-killing to remove Bridges).  And against Magus if you get your early Island (which if you don't you lose anyways), if you main decked a bounce spell, you just bounce (or tutor for bounce) and then crack your fetchlands for the rest of your basics.  And they you don't really shouldn't are too much about a gray ogre.

[Stormanimagus]

I think a lot of what's been said makes sense, but I also think there are some misconceptions about the deck that need to be cleared up.

First two biggies: GUW Hierarch + Selkie versions of the deck beat stax and tezz more than 50% of the time in the hands of a good pilot and it is exactly because of those two cards.

Selkie >>> tezz
Hierarch >>> shops

Respectively. Those are the linchpins in those matchups. Tezz is a bit harder to beat than shops but you have so much disruption that it really just comes down to sealing the deal with a midgame selkie.

Ichorid is going to be just plain tough but I like the idea someone posed to try jotun grunt. I think this as a 3-4 of in the an in concert with a couple relic and a couple crypt along with some children of korlis could get the job done against ichorid. I like grunt because it directly attacks their engine while pressuring them for 4 damage a turn. He makes me feel comfortable about siding out tarmogoyf and being able to side in 2-4 relics.

EDIT: Given these comments I'd like to propose a new list for the metagame.

Selkie-Slam

Land (17):
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (18):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Trygon Predator

Instants (15):
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Chain Of Vapor/Echoing Truth/Psionic Blast

Sorceries (2):
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll

SB
4 Children Of Korlis
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Relic Of Progenitus/Tormod’s Crypt
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
3 Swords To Plowshares

[Campee]

Why are you guys playing white? For Meddling Mage? He's really bad right now. The good decks are playing mostly 1-ofs. If you're going to play white, at least consider playing Kataki. Psionic Blast is so bad, I'm really not sure why it's in these lists. A couple people say that it's for Ichorid. I don't think Psionic Blast would cut it against an extended dredge deck, let alone a vintage dredge deck. If you're so concerned about losing to Ichorid, why don't you just play black instead? You'll have access to Leylines, Extirpates, and Yixlid Jailers. Dark Confidant is also much better than Meddling Mage.

[Harlequin]

I agree Stifle isn't good against Oath.

To be honest, I never really saw the whole Predator as an answer to Oath thing.  Though I know some people have had good experience with it.  Predator is slower that Oath in terms of mana AND in terms of game play, i.e.  you have to play it before they Oath if you want to destroy the Oath before it activates.  Not to mention Oath could always just bounce your Predator or play double Oath (or Oath + Time Walk) if they see it. Not really updated on what current Oath lists look like but I'm sure it'll run a tutor package, Time Walk, and at least one bounce spell.

My analysis of Trygon v Oath perhapse wasn't really complete.  to be clear I'm not saying that 5 lands, stifle, and Trygon is GG.   Having played Oath more than any other deck in my vintage carrier I can say that playing against a deck packing early-range disruption isn't all that bad.  Against UW fish of old, you were facing some early mana denial (stifle, rods, waste), backed by some early disruption in the form of Daze and force.  So actually drawing and sticking oath before turn 2-3 was a rarety.  Compound that with Meddling Mage on oath and lastly swords for your creatures - and it was not exactly your best matchup.  But it was winable in th way you described.  Just build up some mana and keep dropping bombs.  If they laned a Mage, go find your bounce spell.  Thier best mid-late game tool against you was Mage.  And Trygon is more accuratly Mage 5-8 against them... with the added benefit that you can use stifle to undo an already resolved oath.  The point is that trygon adds to the number of head-ache cards for oath.  To the point about Oath's outs to trygon, that's oath's out to ANY form of removal... have lots of oaths!  But something like seal of cleansing/primorta can't answers back to back oaths like trygon can.  In order to beat trygon they need to find and play 2 oaths in the same turn - which is easier said than done against a mana denial deck.

@ Campee's comments:
Meddling Mage is integral to this deck's denial strategy.  If you have your opponent's deck on the ropes, they likely will only have a few outs against you.  Meddling Mage 'counters' those outs before they become a threat.  Confidant is in almost all situations worse than Mage for what this deck needs mage for.  Here a quick example:
Mage naming drain, then play a threat ~ threat resolves
Dark confidant drawing a 2nd threat this  turn ~ bait gets drained, true threat resolves. 
In both cases you resolve 1 threat, and in the case of confidant you arguable resolve your choice of threats (assuming they fall for the bait).  But in the Mage exmple, they're down 2-3 colorless mana next turn... and you are at the roots a mana denial deck.
Not to mention that pre-empting an Oath or a Tinker is much stronger than playing a confidant and giving you one extra chance to rip removal.

Also almost half the cards I run in my board are white.


@Psionic Blast
Psiblast is NOT for ichorid.  In my giganta-post about how to beat ichorid I mention it only once in passing while I'm talking about the benefit of boarding in Swords to Plow.

However I chalenge anyone to find a broader use of four removal slots than: Merchant Scroll, Hurkyls x2, and Psiblast.  If you do let me know, and I'll run it.

And against Magus if you get your early Island (which if you don't you lose anyways), if you main decked a bounce spell, you just bounce (or tutor for bounce) and then crack your fetchlands for the rest of your basics.  And they you don't really shouldn't are too much about a gray ogre.

I'm not even sure how you would pull that off... First of all, the mana base for this deck is already tight with 1 basic island.  And for saftey I almost always fetch it first or 2nd.  I can't see the deck running a basic forest or plains because they don't play well with daze.  So really you get one turn of actually doing something, and that something better be getting ready to counter Magus when they play him next turn.  Vintage may not be an attack-phase format but there are still plenty of creatures worth killing rather than bouncing: Magus, Confidant, Sower, Welder.  Javlineer only answers 1 toughness creatures and is untutorable meaning you'd have to run more than 1.  Which means you'd lose your super-removal card: Merchant Scroll.  That can answer a small guy, tinker, shops, combo, and if you got nothing needing removal you can trade it in to refill your hand! 

So your suggestion seems to be to run bounce and javlineers (in slot of 4 cards) and scoop to inkwell...

[T1scrub]

hi and sry for interrupting you guys , and sry 4 my bad english ( i m from germany)
have you ever realized that this deck looses against one single darkblast ?

and sry but your draincontrol matchup can t be that good , you have only fow daze rod waste stifle
you need more disruption to be competitive .

and your draw is based on cc 3 creatures ... slower than tfk and  a potentiel drain target

[Harlequin]

I might be feeding a troll here, but he looks so hungry...

@ Darkblast

Selkie and Noble die to darkblast.  But Mage, Goyf, and Trygon would be fine, not to mention all the disruption is left untouched (and they will be opting not to draw in order to kill your guys).  If you can't waste thier black sources, you could always toss out a Mage naming darkbast and problem solved.  On top of that I haven't seen it in decks lately because it actaully pretty bad against the field right now.  The deck loses to Perish too, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

@ drain/control.

you have only fow daze rod waste stifle you need more disruption to be competitive .

That's 18 cards!  If I need "more" than a 1/3 of my deck I could always run Misdirrect x1 and Meddling Mage x4, and maybe board in 3 Aven mindcensors.  Oh wait that's right, I do!  Cards like Goyf are good against drain (so long as you can back them with disruption) and Selkie and Trygon aren't exactly good news for Drain decks either.

@ Speed of 3cc creatures being slower than TFK and drain. 
I agree.  But the that's why I have so much for the early game.  Daze, Force, Stifle, Noble, Null Rod, Meddling Mage are all cards that come down sooner than my seven 3cc creatures.  The 3cc creatures ensure that this fish deck can keep up its own tempo in the mid game.

[Guli]

Why are you guys playing white? For Meddling Mage? He's really bad right now. The good decks are playing mostly 1-ofs. If you're going to play white, at least consider playing Kataki. Psionic Blast is so bad, I'm really not sure why it's in these lists. A couple people say that it's for Ichorid. I don't think Psionic Blast would cut it against an extended dredge deck, let alone a vintage dredge deck. If you're so concerned about losing to Ichorid, why don't you just play black instead? You'll have access to Leylines, Extirpates, and Yixlid Jailers. Dark Confidant is also much better than Meddling Mage.

I have to completely agree here on the black. I feel the answers to some problems in meta should be looked in black.

Demonic tutor is superior to merchant scroll. (stating the obvious i know)

Dark Confidant is not necessarily better than Meddling Mage. I don't agree with the statement that meddling mage is worse because a lot 1offs are being played. You name whatever the situation demands for. Still meddling mage might not worth the blue in some fish versions.

This is a thread for GUW variants, so I am not going to promote GBW fish in here. I did open up a thread in the improvement section go take a look. The idea is totally different in comparison to this thread but you can post your GBW version so we can discuss.

IF you are going to use hierarch then it seems logical to use blue/white as well. I wonder if hierarch would be good in GBW as well. I think it will as it can still provide for the main colors.

So I was saying that black is the best tutor color. Also I think black has the best dredge hate as well.

If you look to the mono color creatures right now the best colors are simply white, black and green. Meddling is white in my eyes. White is still the weenie color it just uses splash here and there. You can go red/green beats but that is a different archetype.

Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf and the brotherhood Canonist/Aven/Believer/TeeG those are the effective solid bears if you ask me. (BGW) With or without null rod. (Vial is a possible route)

This doesn't mean one can't build a respectable deck with Selk/Hierarch. And I think the lists in this thread look nice though they have problems and the solution is not within grasp for the moment with those colors.

[Phele]

have you ever realized that this deck looses against one single darkblast ?

Losing against Darkblast is somewhat exaggerate, but at least it is one of the major tools against this deck. Pyroclasm, Fire/Ice and Massacre are the other ones. They all can be stopped – as said by Harlequin – by Wasteland and Meddling Mage. But at least it is good to know, that this deck has some vulnerabilities.

and sry but your draincontrol matchup can t be that good , you have only fow daze rod waste stifle
you need more disruption to be competitive.

Sorry Simon, but you can't be serious: This deck is designed to beat Drain control to hell. And they even play additional tools in form of Mindcensor out of the board. That's is totally enought. I would worry much more about my non blue aggro matchup with just three maindeck cards being good in this matchup (Goyf).

@ Storman: What is the reason for Windswept Heath? You don't play basic Plains or Forrests but do play a basic Island. So why not play a mix of blue fetchlands, which will get you every dual in this deck while still being able to get the basic Island, which can be crucial against Workshops to resolve Predator or Hurkyl.

In which matchup do you play Grunt (beside Ichorid)? It seems somewhat counterproductive to Goyfs.

Great deck btw!!

[the_lord_shaper]

Qasali Pridemage  from Alara Reborn seems like it was just made for this deck.

[Stormanimagus]

have you ever realized that this deck looses against one single darkblast ?

Losing against Darkblast is somewhat exaggerate, but at least it is one of the major tools against this deck. Pyroclasm, Fire/Ice and Massacre are the other ones. They all can be stopped – as said by Harlequin – by Wasteland and Meddling Mage. But at least it is good to know, that this deck has some vulnerabilities.

and sry but your draincontrol matchup can t be that good , you have only fow daze rod waste stifle
you need more disruption to be competitive.

Sorry Simon, but you can't be serious: This deck is designed to beat Drain control to hell. And they even play additional tools in form of Mindcensor out of the board. That's is totally enought. I would worry much more about my non blue aggro matchup with just three maindeck cards being good in this matchup (Goyf).

@ Storman: What is the reason for Windswept Heath? You don't play basic Plains or Forrests but do play a basic Island. So why not play a mix of blue fetchlands, which will get you every dual in this deck while still being able to get the basic Island, which can be crucial against Workshops to resolve Predator or Hurkyl.

In which matchup do you play Grunt (beside Ichorid)? It seems somewhat counterproductive to Goyfs.

Great deck btw!!

Jotun Grunt seems like one of the best answers to Ichorid to me in White when combined with Sac Creatures to get rid of bridges. If people have better ideas I'm open to 'em.

You're right. The Windswept Heath's don't really have much purpose beyond making it hard to pithing needle a majority of my manabase. Delta might be better there. Who knows? Perhaps this deck could be GUWb in some iteration just to give us tools against Ichorid? Not sure I like diluting the manabase though. Hmmmmm. . .

[nineisnoone]

Sorry Simon, but you can't be serious: This deck is designed to beat Drain control to hell. And they even play additional tools in form of Mindcensor out of the board. That's is totally enough. I would worry much more about my non blue aggro matchup with just three maindeck cards being good in this matchup (GDyf).

I just don't exactly see this deck as being that different then any deck in the past as far as fish goes.  It's BUG fish - Cursecather,+ Noble... - Duress,+ Meddling Mage... - Dark Confidant + Selkie... with a few other changes here and there.  Or something like that. 

I'm sure it's competitive, but I think there is just a bit of hyperbole as far as match-ups go.  It seems like it doesn't draw as evenly as other fish decks.  And it's my preference to have these sorts of deck be less draw dependent.  But it does have more explosive hands. 

But something like seal of cleansing/primorta can't answers back to back oaths like trygon can.  In order to beat trygon they need to find and play 2 oaths in the same turn - which is easier said than done.

Sure, but no one is going to play an Oath when you have a predator on the table already.  Unless they can answer it.  But assuming they can't, there's no reason why they'd play the Oath, pass the turn, and let you destroy it.  The same thing will be said about seal.  They're not going to just walk their Oath into your seal.  So in both cases, they need 2 Oath's to be able to win (or something like that). The difference being that Seal can be played after they play Oath and still prevent an activation plus being 1 mana less and only requiring one colored mana.  And in the Oath match-up specifically, they are already advantaged if you play a Predator because now they don't have to get Orchard.  So that's one less card they need to find because you played a creature. 

To me, it just doesn't add up to being worth it. If I don't need the attacker (and to me it looks like you don't) I would go for something else.  But that's just me.

That said...

Qasali Pridemage  from Alara Reborn seems like it was just made for this deck.

What's your take on this card? 

I prefer this to Predator (barring color issues) since it can be activated the turn it comes into play which, to me, is huge.  Exalted stacks right?

Meddling Mage is integral to this deck's denial strategy.  If you have your opponent's deck on the ropes, they likely will only have a few outs against you.  Meddling Mage 'counters' those outs before they become a threat.  Confidant is in almost all situations worse than Mage for what this deck needs mage for.  Here a quick example:
Mage naming drain, then play a threat ~ threat resolves
Dark confidant drawing a 2nd threat this  turn ~ bait gets drained, true threat resolves. 
In both cases you resolve 1 threat, and in the case of confidant you arguable resolve your choice of threats (assuming they fall for the bait).  But in the Mage exmple, they're down 2-3 colorless mana next turn... and you are at the roots a mana denial deck.
Not to mention that pre-empting an Oath or a Tinker is much stronger than playing a confidant and giving you one extra chance to rip removal.

I don't really think you can compare the two cards.  Dark Confidant is there to get the ball rolling while Meddling Mage is there to seal the deal.  To me, the former (getting things going) is more important than the latter (sealing the deal).

How frequently do you pre-empt Tinker btw?  I've never been very big on the mage, so I'm curious when that's the right call.  When I (rarely) play the card I usually go for the engine cards, rather than the outs to my disruption.  Like against a Tezz deck I would go Drain, Thirst, with Tinker only coming after that.