Noble Fish: GUW variants here!

[TheWhiteDragon]

games where you drop a goyf that gets to be 5/6, swing for 2 turns, then your opponent gets off yawg will to replay his whole deck (or the time vault you already pridemaged away) or gifts for broken win.

It's not that tarmgoyf can't kill fast...it's that without being disruptive, your opponent most likely will kill you faster.

The appeal of ooze is that he can grow as big as tarm, while shrinking opposing tarms, and stifling yawg will/bazaar/welder/crucible/regrowth shenanigans.  It's a similar argument to why people play teeg or arbiter or any 2/2 card-with-disruption over tarmgoyf.  Killing your opponent in 4 turns sans disruption is never more likely than disrupting their gameplan/engine and being able to kill them in 6 turns.  Vintage decks are just too able to grow brokenly huge in 1 turn or come back from nothing and steal a win in one swoop.  Stopping broken while whittling away their life is the safer, and I'd argue better, strategy than just smashing face recklessly.  The only decks that can smash face and disregard the opponent are decks that can consistently kill by turn 3 (dredge, maybe goblins, elves)

[Blue Lotus]

Why I'm not sold on ooze is the additional mana investment. Talk about do nothing, he is a 2/2 with no effect on the board. You have to decide to commit more to the board or pump him/disrupt. Compare this to goyf, which is immediately a threat and can be immediately supplemented by additional threats the following turn.

Compile this with the fact that any deck with yawgwill can win handily without ever seeing the card and it seems to me that ooze is the do nothing. But my all means play it and prove me wrong.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I myself made the late minute switch to try 2 oozes main.  In my experience, he's too slow to stop dredge.  I may cut him all together again.  I have no doubt he's better than tarm, but since tarm is definitely not worth playing imho, it might be that ooze shouldn't make the cut either.  I would think that ooze is better than tarm...and image is better than tarm...but that doesn't mean any of the 3 are worth running over 2/2 disruptive bears.  I am trying the best of the 3, but he is proving just so-so.  I've never been impressed with tarm and now with all the useful fish critters, he's like #154 on my list of playable fish.

[psyburat]

I read the posts of TheWhiteDragon, but I don't feel like being drawn further down into the rabbit hole about how wrong I think he is, no matter how much Jake Gans tells me I need to retort again.  Sorry Jake.

I'm preboarding the Trygons for the Missteps for this Saturday's TopDeckGames event in New Jersey.  I blame it on the constant stream of Slash Panthers I seem to have taken on as My Enemy in Me.

[Stormanimagus]

I think Noble Fish might be due for an update and there are a couple of goodies for the SB I'd like to throw at you all:


Noble Fish

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (22):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (12):
4 Force Of Will
3 Steel Sabotage
4 Daze
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Trygon Predator
3 Swords To Plowshares
4 Flusterstorm

I think Flusterstorm is godsend to help shore up the Gush-Storm and TPS match-up and might even be warranted vs. Bob-Gush or Jace-Vault. Surgical Extraction is the 4-6 slots of Dredge hate that this deck really wanted and Swords is as good as it has ever been. Notice the inclusion of Phantasmal Image MD. To me this is a MD or not at all card and I'd like to give it a shot as it is Goyf # 4-6 potentially as well as an answer to Tinker and Oath MD. Steel Sabotage comes out vs. Blue but definitely isn't dead game 1. Not sure how solid this version of the deck is but give it a try and tell me what you think.

-Storm

[Guli]

I think Noble Fish might be due for an update and there are a couple of goodies for the SB I'd like to throw at you all:


Noble Fish

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (22):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (12):
4 Force Of Will
3 Steel Sabotage
4 Daze
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Trygon Predator
3 Swords To Plowshares
4 Flusterstorm

I think Flusterstorm is godsend to help shore up the Gush-Storm and TPS match-up and might even be warranted vs. Bob-Gush or Jace-Vault. Surgical Extraction is the 4-6 slots of Dredge hate that this deck really wanted and Swords is as good as it has ever been. Notice the inclusion of Phantasmal Image MD. To me this is a MD or not at all card and I'd like to give it a shot as it is Goyf # 4-6 potentially as well as an answer to Tinker and Oath MD. Steel Sabotage comes out vs. Blue but definitely isn't dead game 1. Not sure how solid this version of the deck is but give it a try and tell me what you think.

-Storm

Looks very similar to my project with Bant 2011 but the ROD version. I like it, I use Revokers instead of Null Rod because they are more flexible and can be copied by Image. Image is more than just Tarmogoyf, you will see this while playtesting . I like the FoW/Daze/Sabotage wall. I would keep this as a Null Rod version and if one might choose Revoker I would make the follow changes:
-4 Null Rod +4 Phyrexian Revoker
-2 Cold-eyed Selkie +2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest (because of high creature count)

[psyburat]

So why is Edric + Exalted synergy?

[Stormanimagus]

So why is Edric + Exalted synergy?

It is not and I am I sorry if I wasn't clear about that in my debate with Guli on the subject. Frankly, I think that Edric may simply be "Red Herring" draw engine and may, in fact, be inferior to Exalted + Selkie. My major problem with Edric is that he requires many creatures on the field that are all going into the red zone to be effective. Most of those creatures are x/2 so they can easily be chumped by confidants and Trygons. You get one potential burst of card draw for the loss of your team? Selkie draws cards by itself when unblocked and many decks can't block it, period. The creature count in a Selkie deck can also be lower because you are not trying to get increased value from cards like Aether Vial.

Aether Vial is an incredibly dubious card that I think Guli is failing to see the weakness of. It does exactly nothing significant for 2 turns upon resolution and then you can pump out 1 dude a turn. This would be sufficient if such a deck had the means to stay in the game until that turn, but, by design, a Vial deck needs about 24-28 creatures to have consistency so slots become limited for anything else once you plop in 4 Vial and 4-5 Moxen/Lotus. Basically a typical Vial list has:

4 Vial
17-18 Land
4-5 Moxen/Lotus
24-28 Creatures

That's 49-55 cards that are not instant speed or particularly "reactive" at all.

Contrast that with Noble Fish:

19-22 Creatures
13-15 Instants/Sorceries
17 Land
4 Moxen/Lotus
3-4 Null Rod

This iteration of Fish has a way to protect its "bombs" (not really bombs but an unanswered Selkie or Predator or Goyf can win you the game when protected) That is quite viable in Force of Will, Daze, and Steel Sabotage/Flusterstorm.

I'm not saying that Aether Vial as a strategy should outright just be abandoned, but I do think that it probably belongs in a deck like WW or GW that can effectively make use of Vial @1 and Vial @2.

Though I've posted this list before I really think Vial Shines most in a deck along the lines of this:

Land (21)
12 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (12):
4 Aether Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Sword Of Fire And Ice

Creatures (23):
4 Student Of Warfare (W)
4 Phyrexian Revoker (2)
4 Leonin Arbiter (1W)
3 Kataki, War’s Wage (1W)
4 Leonin Relic-Warder (WW)
4 Mirran Crusader (1WW)

Instants (4):
4 Path To Exile (4)

Sideboard
4 True Believer (WW)
3 Ethersworn Canonist (1W)
4 Surgical Extraction (B)
4 Ravenous Trap (2BB)


-Storm

[Guli]

My post wasn't about Aether Vial. I noticed a lot of similarity between the list you posted in this thread and the one me and A_Duck have been working on these pasts months. We decided to drop Vial after a while. My only reason to run Vial was because of the Workshop presence in the meta. The card is good at ignoring spheres and getting out bear after bear to overpower Worklshop and make their entire strategy look silly.

However we found out that Noble and ESG are capable of doing this too and that Vial is just not needed in the Workshop match up. So we had no reason to run it any longer. The list you posted is not good btw Storm. Kataki and the huge amount of artifacts will not work.

Selkie does not give all your other creatures an incredible ability when he hits the board. If Selkie can not get through, you will not see cards. With Edric you can attack aggressively and let one of your dudes hit the grave. And exalted matters with Edric a lot. Image you are facing Trygon and you have noble and Meddling. You cast Edric and you swing with Meddling Mage as a 3/3. With Selki you would have draw 2 cards the next turn. With Edric you also draw 2 cards but you get to see one of those cards right away.

You will need to have a lot of exalted creatures on the board AND Selkie AND 3 turns to make more card advantage with Selkie compared to Edric. However, if you have say two creatures on the table (ex. Revoker and Mage) and you cast Edric, you instantly get value out of Edrics ability. Edric has a more powerful broad effect on the board, while Selkie is narrow and needs other bears to be good.

[Stormanimagus]

Guli,

Sorry about the Aether Vial comment, but, to be fair, I wasn't referring to your most recent post.

What interests me more is our disagreement about draw engine. Edric vs. Selkie is an important debate to have and actually the chat should also be about Selkie vs. Edric vs. nothing at all.

I happen to think that nothing at all is not an option, but some winning Noble Fish lists were not using a consistent draw engine for quite some time over the past year.

Here are my thoughts about Edric that you did not mention in your post. You failed to mention how Edric forces your deck design to be creature heavy and that, IMO, is bad. You do not need A LOT of exalted creature to make Selkie good. 1 will suffice just fine. Selkie has complete evasion against the decks you care about beating. That is important as she is guaranteed damage too.

I can see Edric being useful in that he gives you cards right now, but I still can't get around the design constraints he puts on your deck and the fact that your creatures have to go into the red zone in order to draw you cards. I suppose Selkie does as well and that against Aggro Shops you be sending her to her death, but I'd be siding out both draw engines in that matchup in favor of hate (Kataki or more Trygons or both). Selkie allows you to stack your deck with more instants that actually help you in the control match-up, whereas Edric forces you more into that 22-26 creature range while Selkie keeps you in that 18-22 creature range. Those extra 4-6 slots can be really key in deck design.

You do make some rather compelling points regarding Edric, but I'm still not 100% convinced.

-Storm

[serracollector]

Edric does not need lots of creatures, I been testing a recent deck using 2 Edric, 3 Trygon, 4 Revoker, 4 Nobles, and 2 Green Sun's Zenith, then my plethora or Artifact Mana/Counters/Instants, and even just drawing 1-2 cards off your revokers/trygons after GSZ a Edric is easily so much CA it leads to a win.  Think of BBS, all it had was 4 Ophidian and a Morphling or 2, and it "creature draw" + Acall did just fine.  Edric turns all your critters in Ophidians that still do damage (and in Trygons case destroy something, or in Revokers stops a win condition/mana source).

[Guli]

What serra said is true. Besides, when are you going to have a mass amount of creatures anyway? Connecting with one or two creatures is sufficient to secure a strong lead and take the gold.

With Zenith I would run a split of Selkie and Edric though. Depending on the situation you can get whatever is better in a given situation. Now to think of it, running 1x Edric and 1x Selkie does not sound bad. For me both of these cards have proven to be strong draw engines.

[Stormanimagus]

What serra said is true. Besides, when are you going to have a mass amount of creatures anyway? Connecting with one or two creatures is sufficient to secure a strong lead and take the gold.

With Zenith I would run a split of Selkie and Edric though. Depending on the situation you can get whatever is better in a given situation. Now to think of it, running 1x Edric and 1x Selkie does not sound bad. For me both of these cards have proven to be strong draw engines.

The more I consider the implications of Edric on the board with things like goyf the more I like him. Turning a Goyf or a Trygon into Card Advantage is pretty slick as you'll want those guys to turn sideways all the time. Selikie will run into a wall vs. Shops and that is a huge deal. Edric is a more universal card draw engine. I do think Selkie still wins out in a true Null Rod/GUW Noble Fish list, but Edric definitely deserves testing elsewhere (and possibly as a 1-of in lists running GSZ). I've been toying with some ideas for an Edric Aggro deck and after my deliberating I've decided that UGB is the right color combo for such a deck and I even have a preliminary list I'd like to run by the community. Here it is:

Jazz Fusion

Land (15):
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Blightsteel Colossus/Sphinx Of The Steel Wind?

Creatures (17):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Trygon Predator
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

Planeswalkers (3):
3 Jace, The Mindsculptor

Instants (13):
4 Force Of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Steel Sabotage
3 Flusterstorm

Sorceries (3):
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Yixlid Jailer
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Doom Blade
1 Trygon Predator
1 Island
3 Phyrexian Revoker


So this deck is definitely in its earliest stages, but I think there is potential for a deck to go this route. One could argue that there are too many draw engines in this deck, but I think they all work together quite well, and vs. decks like Gush-Bob-Jace you are going to want those extra FoWs and Flusterstorms that You'll be drawing in to. Speaking of Flusterstorm, let me try to explain this card. It is really good, in theory, vs. Blue decks and obviously it is absolutely dead vs. Shops, but I think that is a trade-off I'm willing to make considering how well geared this deck is to beat shops.

Here's the scoop on Flusterstorm. If your opponent plays even 1 spell that you can flusterstorm then flusterstorm is strictly better than Spell Pierce.
If you get into a counter-war vs. Blue then Flusterstorm becomes almost unstoppable.

Phantasmal Image is another centerpiece of this deck. Copying Confidants and Goyfs will be what you use it for a lot, but there is also the possibility to copy Blightsteel Colossus and that can be huge if your opponent has his/her own.

Steel Sabotage is the other questionable choice, but I think it is just so much the edge-giver vs. Shops when you already have Goyf and Bob at 2 CMC and Trygon at 3 CMC to back it up. Mainly Steel Sabotage is there to ensure that you are not sphered out and thus unable to even cast Trygon.

So I could go into a long explanation of each card choice, but I won't for now. First I'd like to see what folks have to say about this deck. Viable? Tweakable? Totally and utterly awful?

Enjoy!

-Storm

[nineisnoone]

On the Sedric vs Selkie issue, I'd like to contend that Selkie is not the core of the deck, but that it is Noble Hierarch. Heirarch gives mana and beats due to exhaulted. Selkie is better in my eyes (in a limited vaccuum at least) because he takes advantage of Heirarch better, while Sedric does not work with him at all. Sedric is fine, but I don't see any particularly strong application for him yet.

As far as the deck list goes, I'd swap the PIs for Revokers, especially if you are playing 3 main deck Steel Sabotages and are not playing Rod.  Copying Confidant seems excessive (this deck list feels like it has high CMC, though I didn't do the math).  Copying 'Goyf feels redundant, since you'll loose... what? 1-3 points of damage that you'll have to wait to get until next turn anyways? Too slow, for me. Revoker is much better in my eyes.

Also, even though i love Jace, I think cutting to two (or maybe even 1) would be more appropriate since you don't have Preordain or things like that.

I like Flusterstorm, but if I was running Black, I'd run a Duress/Thoughtseize package. I'm guessing you need it to support Force, but with the fine assortment of situational blue counters out there (notably Steel Sabotage), I think you could do quite well. You could even MD some Mental Missteps (though not really all that big on this idea) or SB in your Leylines if you are worried about turn 1 wins.  And yes, that was me saying cut Force.

[Stormanimagus]

So I'm sorry to say that I think the great BUG Fish revival experiment has failed. In testing I have found almost all of Marske's concerns (that he posted in my thread on the deck in the creative forum) to be well founded. My design for that deck was trying to do too many things well, and, more importantly, it was trying to do things well that other decks already do better by design. I won't go into the gory details of why the deck simply doesn't work, but it has a lot to do with being an aggro deck that doesn't really play the tempo game well at all. Phantasmal Image is definitely "win more" in the context of the deck and Tinker-->Bot is not abused hardly at all. In other words, it is the worst use of Tinker-->Bot out there and I hardly ever resolved a Tinker in testing let along won with it. So I'm willing to lay it to rest as a failed experiment, but illuminating nonetheless in that it made me realize that Noble Fish may be the way to go right now. However, I'm ready to make some pretty significant changes to Noble Fish (especially in the SB) and here's my current list with those changes that I am starting to test on Cockatrice. So far I am 1-0 with a relatively routine 2-0 win over Gush-Jace (very happy with this as I am quite worried about that match-up). Here's the list I am testing:

Noble Fish

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (18):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (15):
4 Force Of Will
4 Daze
3 Steel Sabotage
3 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (2):
1 Time Walk
1 Green Sun’s Zenith


Sideboard
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Trygon Predator
3 Flusterstorm
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Notable Card Choices for the Maindeck:

*3 Tarmogoyf — I only don't run 4 because I have Green Sun's Zenith as my "4th Goyf" and I don't have the room.

*1 Cold-Eyed Selkie — I run 1 to tutor with the 1 Zenith. You only ever want 1 in play anyway in the relevant match-ups and you have 2 more in the SB for games 2 and 3.

*2 Trygon Predator — I wish I could make room for a third MD, but there simply isn't room.

*4 Daze — Still a mana denier's best friend. This deck wants to see one in the opening 7 and possibly even a second one shortly thereafter.

*3 Steel Sabotage — Extremely flexible counter that is hardly ever dead and answers Blightsteel Colossus. Also serves as a helper bounce spell to ensure that you'll be able to fight through spheres to eventually land a Trygon. Sign me up.

*3 Mental Misstep — The sleeper of this deck and the jury's still out on this one. Not sure that it belongs in a deck where you are not protecting bombs from potential Spell Pierce or turn 1 Duress, but it's been pretty effective vs. Gush and TPS thus far so I think it is earning its stripes. It also follows the rule that this deck has of being a "free" counterspell. This brings the "free" counterspell count up to 11 and that's pretty hot.

*1 Green Sun's Zenith — I used to run 2. I don't think you need that many. I think this is a card that is lovely to see, but that you don't necessarily want to see early. Against Shops it is weak because you'll hardly ever be able to fight through the spheres to cast it, and against Blue you'd rather just have the hate creature. This card does shine vs. Blue game 1 as it give you the all important tutor you need for your toolbox mise 1-of Selkie. You probably keep it in in most match-ups game 2, but perhaps not vs. Shops. It also shuffles back in so 1-of makes more sense for that reason too.

Sideboard Choices fully explained:

*3 Ravenous Trap — Answers Dredge and is free. Easy to protect.

*3 Surgical Extraction — Answers Dredge and is free. Easy to protect.

*2 Trygon Predator — You are going to want the full 4 vs. Shops despite all the answers that Shops are running to this guy nowadays.

*1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest — This guy might be too cute, but I really like him vs. Shops when you don't want to be running Selkie. 1-of Edric coming in for 1-of Selkie vs. Shops is also another reason to keep GSZ in vs. Shops.

*2 Cold-Eyed Selkie — Most decks in Vintage are Blue. You don't want to lose that match-up. Nuff said.

*3 Flusterstorm — This card is made fun of a lot by many pros and I can't understand why. It is so far beyond that power level of Spell Pierce that it is really no contest IMO. This will come in vs. Gush-Storm, TPS and many other variants of Blue. It will also come in vs. Dredge to protect your hate cards from anti-hate. It is amazing at winning counter wars and a truly savage tool for a tempo deck like this.

If you have any questions that are more personal feel free to PM me. Also, if you'd like to test on Cockatrice also PM me and we can exchange SN's. I can also give you my AIM SN at that time.

-Storm

[Guli]

So I'm sorry to say that I think the great BUG Fish revival experiment has failed. In testing I have found almost all of Marske's concerns (that he posted in my thread on the deck in the creative forum) to be well founded. My design for that deck was trying to do too many things well, and, more importantly, it was trying to do things well that other decks already do better by design. I won't go into the gory details of why the deck simply doesn't work, but it has a lot to do with being an aggro deck that doesn't really play the tempo game well at all.

I find it hard to believe that you have already tested enough to draw hard conclusions like this. If something doesn't go the way you intended then you make adjustments. You give it time. That is why playtesting is done and that is the reason you open a thread to reflect and receive feedback. You got some feedback and then with that in your head you played some games against God knows who and what. We did not see the test sessions. It feels wrong what you did here. You could at least write a small report on the games and match ups you played. Now, you just say 'It just didn't work, I am not going into detail, here is my Noble Fish, that must work!'

[psyburat]

No worries Noah, I didn't think you were advocating Edric, just curious why people do.  My weekly play group usually devolves into pizza and dick jokes within the first hour, so I look to the community to do my testing for me.  Apparently my build was in the 4-1 bracket at Worlds before Mark Hornung beat him Round 6, but he's at a loss for the name of that opponent.  Would The Real Slim Shady please stand up?

Someone should test Mortarpod as dredge hate.  I only iterate my build quarterly with set releases, so I'll leave that all up to you.  It also doubles as Dark Confidant hate, but having a piece of hate that still kills Bridge from Below when it's Nature's Claim'd is pretty spicy.  The trick is to shoot a Narcomoeba, triggering the removal of Bridge from Below prior to the illusion dying.  Works under Null Rod too.

Since we're on a new page of the thread, I'll post my post-M12 build of the deck (sorry Noah, no fancy colors or fonts from me):

MD:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Trygon Predator

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Null Rod

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Black Lotus
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine

SB:
4 Oxidize
4 Path to Exile
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Mental Misstep

[AmbivalentDuck]

A permanent-heavy approach does have advantages against Slash Workshop aggro builds.  I've also found that bringing Surgical Extraction main turns game 1 against dredge into an expected win for Fish.

I'm going to remind both Guli and Storm that this is a metagame deck: you build it to beat the top8 you expect to play against since getting into the top8 is more a matter of skill and luck than of 4-8 card differences in your decklist.  Even in the top8, sometimes your opponent topdecks their Lotus and you lose (just ask Rich).  But the goal is always to maximize expectation of match wins in the top8.

If I expected to see nothing but Dredge and Gush decks all day, I'd run 4x Extraction main (since you often know what lands are in their hand and nailing Gush unexpectedly can hamstring them).  Similarly, I'd run Tinker if I expected to see nothing but Dredge and Workshops.  Hopefully you two can adopt similar language: "I run ___ because I expect to see _____."   Consider as an example Steve's top8 report where he specifically runs down his thought process on what he expects to see and how he'll prepare for it...going so far as to cut Vault-Key.  There's no one right Gush build for all occasions, and Bant fish should be considered even more variable as it lacks the strong tutoring required to find one-of answers consistently.

[voltron00x]

No worries Noah, I didn't think you were advocating Edric, just curious why people do.  My weekly play group usually devolves into pizza and dick jokes within the first hour...

You have a weekly play group / dick joke & pizza jamboree? 

I need to get back into playing weekly...

[Stormanimagus]

A permanent-heavy approach does have advantages against Slash Workshop aggro builds.  I've also found that bringing Surgical Extraction main turns game 1 against dredge into an expected win for Fish.

I'm going to remind both Guli and Storm that this is a metagame deck: you build it to beat the top8 you expect to play against since getting into the top8 is more a matter of skill and luck than of 4-8 card differences in your decklist.  Even in the top8, sometimes your opponent topdecks their Lotus and you lose (just ask Rich).  But the goal is always to maximize expectation of match wins in the top8.

If I expected to see nothing but Dredge and Gush decks all day, I'd run 4x Extraction main (since you often know what lands are in their hand and nailing Gush unexpectedly can hamstring them).  Similarly, I'd run Tinker if I expected to see nothing but Dredge and Workshops.  Hopefully you two can adopt similar language: "I run ___ because I expect to see _____."   Consider as an example Steve's top8 report where he specifically runs down his thought process on what he expects to see and how he'll prepare for it...going so far as to cut Vault-Key.  There's no one right Gush build for all occasions, and Bant fish should be considered even more variable as it lacks the strong tutoring required to find one-of answers consistently.

This is very well put. I am, however, considering this when designing my 75. Dredge, while performing better than ever before, still only comprises about 8-12% of the field. It may be a slightly higher % of top 8's, but I don't believe you can warrant a MD card that is so completely dead elsewhere. I'm confident that I can win games 2 and 3 on the back of 6-8 solid Dredge hate when you couple those cards with protection like Daze, Flusterstorm, Mental Misstep and FoW along with a clock in Goyf and Wastelands to nuke their mana-base. With all those elements working in concert I'd say that my Noble Fish deck has one of the best game 2 and 3's vs. Dredge of any deck in the field and it actually is a pretty comfortable match-up. I'd rather devote my main deck to beating blue decks as that is an extremely difficult match-up to win in a best of 3 and you need all the tools you can get. I think Fish's biggest weakness is Shops and thus I run 3 Steel Sabotage MD and 2 Predator. Perhaps it should really be 3 Predator MD and drop one of the Mental Missteps for the SB. That would certainly gear you more towards shops.

AmbivalentDuck — Could you explain more clearly your justification for MD Extraction? I think the card is way too narrow to truly hamper Gush, but maybe that is off base? I mean, Extirpate is too narrow in decks that could run it and that card can't be countered so why would Surgical Extraction make the cut in that match-up? Isn't something like Flusterstorm just infinitely better? If you extract Gush that is all well and good, but it doesn't cut them off from Jace and/or Confidant nor from Tinker --> Bot or Vault/Key. Extract is good against Dredge (though only marginally so) because it hits something like Narcomoeba or Bridge which truly cuts them off from the only engine that makes their deck work.

-Storm

[AmbivalentDuck]

AmbivalentDuck — Could you explain more clearly your justification for MD Extraction? I think the card is way too narrow to truly hamper Gush, but maybe that is off base? I mean, Extirpate is too narrow in decks that could run it and that card can't be countered so why would Surgical Extraction make the cut in that match-up? Isn't something like Flusterstorm just infinitely better? If you extract Gush that is all well and good, but it doesn't cut them off from Jace and/or Confidant nor from Tinker --> Bot or Vault/Key. Extract is good against Dredge (though only marginally so) because it hits something like Narcomoeba or Bridge which truly cuts them off from the only engine that makes their deck work.

Surgical Extraction "counters" topdeck tutors, screws with Gifts Ungiven piles, and in combination with Strip effects can screw an opponent out of an entire color (particularly in a Null Rod build).  I've also caught some players' Yawg Wills by nailing Black Lotus in response.  I'm not saying I'd run it for this matchup, nor that I'd board it in in your build...but it's certainly not awful game 1, particularly if it's unexpected.

[Guli]

How can you forget the main application? It is to gain crucial information of hand and library to make Meddling Mage and Revoker more valuable and effective. We figured it is better than Gitaxian Probe because it does actually cut off cards for the opponent. One can argue that drawing a card is better than extirpate effect. I rather hit an underground sea or force of will and see their hand than see their hand and blindly draw a card. Plus we run Edric to draw cards.

[nogz]

AmbivalentDuck — Could you explain more clearly your justification for MD Extraction? I think the card is way too narrow to truly hamper Gush, but maybe that is off base? I mean, Extirpate is too narrow in decks that could run it and that card can't be countered so why would Surgical Extraction make the cut in that match-up? Isn't something like Flusterstorm just infinitely better? If you extract Gush that is all well and good, but it doesn't cut them off from Jace and/or Confidant nor from Tinker --> Bot or Vault/Key. Extract is good against Dredge (though only marginally so) because it hits something like Narcomoeba or Bridge which truly cuts them off from the only engine that makes their deck work.

Surgical Extraction "counters" topdeck tutors, screws with Gifts Ungiven piles, and in combination with Strip effects can screw an opponent out of an entire color (particularly in a Null Rod build).  I've also caught some players' Yawg Wills by nailing Black Lotus in response.  I'm not saying I'd run it for this matchup, nor that I'd board it in in your build...but it's certainly not awful game 1, particularly if it's unexpected.

AmbivalentDuck - IMO,it's a waste of slot in a noble fish deck if running MD surgical extraction. I mean,yeah you have a point of somehow screwing your opponents gush or removing BL in response to Yawg's Will and stuff but if you'll look at it in a bigger picture, you'll see that it's better to put something MD instead of putting surgical extraction main. I don't know but I share the same thought as Storm. To me,I already accepted that game1 against dredge is thus far auto-win against noble fish but knowing this fact, I have preapred my SB to ssomehow take games2 and 3 from them. That's why I believe,running MD the cards that's generally used against blue based decks is still the way to go. Since blue based decks are usually about more than half the meta in anywhere. Just my thoughts.

[AmbivalentDuck]

To me,I already accepted that game1 against dredge is thus far auto-win against noble fish but knowing this fact, I have preapred my SB to ssomehow take games2 and 3 from them.

You're running an 8-9 card sideboard against them?

How can you forget the main application? It is to gain crucial information of hand and library to make Meddling Mage and Revoker more valuable and effective.

Meddling Mage isn't effective in all builds and by turn 2-3, you can often infer your opponent's hand.  In one specific build Guli and I worked on, it was critically important to open with the correct disruption.  Recently, I've come to see Surgical as having even more general value.

[nogz]

To me,I already accepted that game1 against dredge is thus far auto-win against noble fish but knowing this fact, I have preapred my SB to ssomehow take games2 and 3 from them.

You're running an 8-9 card sideboard against them?

Yup,I'm running 8 cards on the SB for dredge. Still not sure on what combination of hates will I put. If I'm gonna run GSZ in my deck, probably gonna put scavenging ooze on the SB since its tutorable.

[Stormanimagus]

No worries Noah, I didn't think you were advocating Edric, just curious why people do.  My weekly play group usually devolves into pizza and dick jokes within the first hour, so I look to the community to do my testing for me.  Apparently my build was in the 4-1 bracket at Worlds before Mark Hornung beat him Round 6, but he's at a loss for the name of that opponent.  Would The Real Slim Shady please stand up?

Someone should test Mortarpod as dredge hate.  I only iterate my build quarterly with set releases, so I'll leave that all up to you.  It also doubles as Dark Confidant hate, but having a piece of hate that still kills Bridge from Below when it's Nature's Claim'd is pretty spicy.  The trick is to shoot a Narcomoeba, triggering the removal of Bridge from Below prior to the illusion dying.  Works under Null Rod too.

Since we're on a new page of the thread, I'll post my post-M12 build of the deck (sorry Noah, no fancy colors or fonts from me):

MD:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Trygon Predator

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Null Rod

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Black Lotus
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine

SB:
4 Oxidize
4 Path to Exile
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Mental Misstep

This list actually intrigues me the more I look at it and looks to be brutally consistent, but I have some issues with it as well. Is the combination of gitaxian probe and meddling mage a good enough synergy to warrant running what amounts to a digging cantrip? I mean, of all the decks to abuse gitaxian probe, Noble Fish seems like the worst one on the surface. You are not digging for lethal Tendrils or for Tinker or for Vault/Key so having a free cantrip appears to be less good. You also don't run top-deck tutors so there is 0 synergy there as well. I mean, it's an interesting conceit to throw probe in the mix because it can give vital info on your opponent's hand which can help inform more than simply MM decisions. Knowing your opponent's hand helps in knowing what to bait with, whether to daze this spell or the next one, what to force etc.

Ok, now to my issues.

Fish is a 75 card deck and not a single slot can be wasted. My usual rule of thumb is that the only card drawing cards that should be included in fish are ones that are +2 CA immediately (Ancestral) or +2 CA repeatedly (Selkie, Edric). Fish doesn't have the luxury of running game-ending bombs so it is all about winning counter wars vs. Blue and winning permanent wars vs. Shops. Our win con is often just a 3/4 or 4/5 for 1G. That pales in comparison to a 5/4 for 2 mana sources as well as a 5/5 flyer that can decimate our board quickly (both in the case of shops) or an 11/11 indestructible, trample, infect or a Tendrils kill (in the case of blue). Since our win cons are far less efficient than other decks we are forced to win the battle of resources and countering key threats. To me, gitaxian probe does very little to advance this plan and the 4 slots it takes up are precious to our MD. I mean, yes, flusterstorm and cards of that ilk are narrow, but Fish is a deck full of somewhat narrow answers so that seems like an unavoidable reality to be embraced and not fought.

I will be testing your list Mike, but I am merely pointing out a potential design flaw in running the probe. You are cutting yourself off from MD Misstep for example by doing so. I would probably be running Misstep over Gitaxian probe MD tbh. Also, 4 Dredge hate? That is way too few. You need 6 solid dredge hate cards minimum or you are going to lose to the dredge player in the room in the top 8. If you are fine with that then, by all means, run 4, but if you want to win the tournament I'd rethink your sb slots a bit. Finally, Oxidize instead of Nature's Claim? Any reason for that choice? STP also seems unnecessary if you find room for Steel Sabotage. STP is often there to only answer the mirror and you shouldn't be facing the mirror too often so I don't think you need STP. Steel Sabotage answers Tinker just fine and also can counter a lotus or sphere before it has a chance to hit the table.

I'd love to test with you sometime Mike, because I remember you being a solid player at the one Vintage tournament where I played against you. Let me know if you'd be up for testing on Cockatrice. PM me sometime.

-Storm

[psyburat]

I haven't had the will to play, let alone discuss strategy, in quite some time.  Gitaxian Probe suits my playing style game 1, Oxidize and Path to Exile over Nature's Claim and Swords to Plowshares suits my playing style game 2 and 3.  The best form of disruption is aggression, and knowing what to watch out for game 1 aids that.  Removing threats without giving them life benefit games 2 and 3 also aids that.  Setting up draw engines has never suited my palette.

I will be switching to Silence in Stone over Null Rod.  I may have other changes as well when I officially create my Autumn 2011 list.

[xouman]

Gitaxian Probe in a Fish deck looks poor. I agree than meddling gets improved, but I think that it would be better in a deck with Cabal Therapy and Revokers, also with vampiric and mystical tutors. The problem is that black should replace green, so it's a different color.

In that shell I'll replace Gitaxian probe for 4 leonine arbiter (better against gush decks, same performance against mud) and 4 null rod by those new null rod enchantment (more difficult to get rid of).

Playing null rod and daze suggest me to try glowrider and thorn of amethist.

[psyburat]

This is why I play Gitaxian Probe.  This should not be why you play Gitaxian Probe, since I have a seemingly unique playing style, but facts need to be put in place:

1. Laziness - "Free" information, don't have to guess at my opponent's hand/archetype
2. Synergy - Makes Meddling Mage naming possibly more relevant
3. Synergy - Provides 4 more sorceries for Tarmogoyf
4. Synergy - Extras are great fodder for Force of Will
5. Laziness - They're always the first 4 cards to be boarded out, providing ease to figuring out how to board.

Don't say Gitaxian Probe sucks, because it doesn't.  Instead point out how your playing style doesn't necessitate the card in your build, and that you'll be pursuing different cards for that reason.  I won't be offended if you change your build, so long as you don't trash mine.  Although I don't attend many events these days, I generally top 8 with it when I do, which invalidates most criticism.

[Phele]

This is why I play Gitaxian Probe.  This should not be why you play Gitaxian Probe, since I have a seemingly unique playing style, but facts need to be put in place:

1. Laziness - "Free" information, don't have to guess at my opponent's hand/archetype
2. Synergy - Makes Meddling Mage naming possibly more relevant
3. Synergy - Provides 4 more sorceries for Tarmogoyf
4. Synergy - Extras are great fodder for Force of Will
5. Laziness - They're always the first 4 cards to be boarded out, providing ease to figuring out how to board.

Don't say Gitaxian Probe sucks, because it doesn't.  Instead point out how your playing style doesn't necessitate the card in your build, and that you'll be pursuing different cards for that reason.  I won't be offended if you change your build, so long as you don't trash mine.  Although I don't attend many events these days, I generally top 8 with it when I do, which invalidates most criticism.

Sorry, I don't get your point. Beside point 2 all things you said are just marginal, especially 4 and 5. Your are basically saying "play any one mana blue sorcery", it grows your Goyf, you can throw it in your force and they are the obvious pick to be boarded out. These are facts, indeed, but they are not convincing at all and are not a matter of playstyle.