Noble Fish: GUW variants here!

[Guli]

I am running this at the moment.

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch

1 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
1 Forest

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Trygon Predator
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stony Silence
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 4 Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter

[marcb]

Without force of will, wouldn't teeg be good enough to include?

[psyburat]

Sorry, I don't get your point. Beside point 2 all things you said are just marginal, especially 4 and 5. Your are basically saying "play any one mana blue sorcery", it grows your Goyf, you can throw it in your force and they are the obvious pick to be boarded out. These are facts, indeed, but they are not convincing at all and are not a matter of playstyle.

I've done the best I can to spell it out.  The only thing I can think to add is to never underestimate a card that has 4 simultaneous marginal uses and that opponents can either be put on tilt or feel mentally defeated by me knowing their hand, ESPECIALLY if I follow it up into an aggressive play and even more if they know that I know I'm playing into a counterspell.

[Guli]

Without force of will, wouldn't teeg be good enough to include?

The Force of Will version looks like this:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch

1 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
1 Forest

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image

2 Trygon Predator
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Stony Silence
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 4 Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter

[tito del monte]

Sorry, I don't get your point. Beside point 2 all things you said are just marginal, especially 4 and 5. Your are basically saying "play any one mana blue sorcery", it grows your Goyf, you can throw it in your force and they are the obvious pick to be boarded out. These are facts, indeed, but they are not convincing at all and are not a matter of playstyle.

I've done the best I can to spell it out.  The only thing I can think to add is to never underestimate a card that has 4 simultaneous marginal uses and that opponents can either be put on tilt or feel mentally defeated by me knowing their hand, ESPECIALLY if I follow it up into an aggressive play and even more if they know that I know I'm playing into a counterspell.

I find Psyburat's build really interesting - and I think there are a couple of further things to say about Probe (although I've yet to give this build a run out yet): Firstly, just to reiterate the point about having better information for Meddling Mage: Mage should in theory be back to its most powerful, as blue decks no have a choice of several unrestricted draw engines: Big Jace, Confidant, Gush, plus Remora if the metagame gets very blue, and Fact or Fiction, if it's still any good. That makes Mage generally a better choice I feel, as you can hit a bigger part of an opponent's deck with it - Probe can only help.

Secondly, it looks like it would work great in Psyburat's build because it helps max out on the already redundant build by reducing the deck to a virtual 56 cards. Sure Psyburat can attest himself, that the consistency of his build must be awesome. Even if there is no Selkie or Edric to refill your hand, such a build must top deck disruption with relative ease.

Basically, if you're not convinced about playing Mage and you plan on building Noble Fish with anything less than four of everything, Probe probably isn't the card you want - but in Psyburat's build, it looks pretty compelling.

[Stormanimagus]

Sorry, I don't get your point. Beside point 2 all things you said are just marginal, especially 4 and 5. Your are basically saying "play any one mana blue sorcery", it grows your Goyf, you can throw it in your force and they are the obvious pick to be boarded out. These are facts, indeed, but they are not convincing at all and are not a matter of playstyle.

I've done the best I can to spell it out.  The only thing I can think to add is to never underestimate a card that has 4 simultaneous marginal uses and that opponents can either be put on tilt or feel mentally defeated by me knowing their hand, ESPECIALLY if I follow it up into an aggressive play and even more if they know that I know I'm playing into a counterspell.

I find Psyburat's build really interesting - and I think there are a couple of further things to say about Probe (although I've yet to give this build a run out yet): Firstly, just to reiterate the point about having better information for Meddling Mage: Mage should in theory be back to its most powerful, as blue decks no have a choice of several unrestricted draw engines: Big Jace, Confidant, Gush, plus Remora if the metagame gets very blue, and Fact or Fiction, if it's still any good. That makes Mage generally a better choice I feel, as you can hit a bigger part of an opponent's deck with it - Probe can only help.

Secondly, it looks like it would work great in Psyburat's build because it helps max out on the already redundant build by reducing the deck to a virtual 56 cards. Sure Psyburat can attest himself, that the consistency of his build must be awesome. Even if there is no Selkie or Edric to refill your hand, such a build must top deck disruption with relative ease.

Basically, if you're not convinced about playing Mage and you plan on building Noble Fish with anything less than four of everything, Probe probably isn't the card you want - but in Psyburat's build, it looks pretty compelling.

Agreed, though it doesn't exactly fit my play style for an important reason. I believe a good pilot should know what to name with Meddling mage by turn 2 within reason and then games 2 & 3 it should even more obvious. If Gitaxian Probe is only leveraging my ability to name things correctly then I'm not seeing how it will be stronger than something like 1-2 Green Sun's Zenith + 1-2 Cold-Eyed Selkie MD.

Basically, I respect Mike's play style and have learned that he knows how to pilot his decks quite well, but I don't think that means his builds are optimal. Specifically I think his list will have problems with Blue as he has no viable draw engine. If a gush deck is able to counter Meddling Mage early his list basically has no chance. Not that my list will have a significantly better chance, but post SB it really should. I don't think I sacrifice too much vs. Shops because I run 3 MD Steel Sabotage.

Noble Fish

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (18):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (15):
4 Force Of Will
4 Daze
3 Steel Sabotage
3 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (2):
1 Time Walk
1 Green Sun’s Zenith


Sideboard
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Trygon Predator
3 Flusterstorm
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Mold Adder
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Green Sun’s Zenith

This list is carefully designed to have good game vs. Blue and Shops and to still have a shot vs. Dredge.

I personally think that Fish cannot afford to run something like 4 Gitaxian Probe because that is 4 slots that could be used for more direct disruption. I think Mental Misstep is too good not to include, for instance.

Just my 2 cents,

-Storm

[Guli]

Sorry, I don't get your point. Beside point 2 all things you said are just marginal, especially 4 and 5. Your are basically saying "play any one mana blue sorcery", it grows your Goyf, you can throw it in your force and they are the obvious pick to be boarded out. These are facts, indeed, but they are not convincing at all and are not a matter of playstyle.

I've done the best I can to spell it out.  The only thing I can think to add is to never underestimate a card that has 4 simultaneous marginal uses and that opponents can either be put on tilt or feel mentally defeated by me knowing their hand, ESPECIALLY if I follow it up into an aggressive play and even more if they know that I know I'm playing into a counterspell.

I find Psyburat's build really interesting - and I think there are a couple of further things to say about Probe (although I've yet to give this build a run out yet): Firstly, just to reiterate the point about having better information for Meddling Mage: Mage should in theory be back to its most powerful, as blue decks no have a choice of several unrestricted draw engines: Big Jace, Confidant, Gush, plus Remora if the metagame gets very blue, and Fact or Fiction, if it's still any good. That makes Mage generally a better choice I feel, as you can hit a bigger part of an opponent's deck with it - Probe can only help.

Secondly, it looks like it would work great in Psyburat's build because it helps max out on the already redundant build by reducing the deck to a virtual 56 cards. Sure Psyburat can attest himself, that the consistency of his build must be awesome. Even if there is no Selkie or Edric to refill your hand, such a build must top deck disruption with relative ease.

Basically, if you're not convinced about playing Mage and you plan on building Noble Fish with anything less than four of everything, Probe probably isn't the card you want - but in Psyburat's build, it looks pretty compelling.

Agreed, though it doesn't exactly fit my play style for an important reason. I believe a good pilot should know what to name with Meddling mage by turn 2 within reason and then games 2 & 3 it should even more obvious. If Gitaxian Probe is only leveraging my ability to name things correctly then I'm not seeing how it will be stronger than something like 1-2 Green Sun's Zenith + 1-2 Cold-Eyed Selkie MD.

Basically, I respect Mike's play style and have learned that he knows how to pilot his decks quite well, but I don't think that means his builds are optimal. Specifically I think his list will have problems with Blue as he has no viable draw engine. If a gush deck is able to counter Meddling Mage early his list basically has no chance. Not that my list will have a significantly better chance, but post SB it really should. I don't think I sacrifice too much vs. Shops because I run 3 MD Steel Sabotage.

Noble Fish

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (18):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (15):
4 Force Of Will
4 Daze
3 Steel Sabotage
3 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (2):
1 Time Walk
1 Green Sun’s Zenith


Sideboard
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Trygon Predator
3 Flusterstorm
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Mold Adder
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Green Sun’s Zenith

This list is carefully designed to have good game vs. Blue and Shops and to still have a shot vs. Dredge.

I personally think that Fish cannot afford to run something like 4 Gitaxian Probe because that is 4 slots that could be used for more direct disruption. I think Mental Misstep is too good not to include, for instance.

Just my 2 cents,

-Storm

Isn't STP just better in those Steel Sabotage slots. Creatures everywere and also a Tinker solution. And actually get's rid of Golems without the problem of them welding it back in or replaying it after bounce. I would also play 1x Teeg in that list. Did you see some of those top 8 fish lists recently? They run Teeg and Force in the same deck.

[Stormanimagus]

What is the list of creatures you need to kill?

My list is this:

Dark Confidant
Lotus Cobra
Tarmogoyf
Blightsteel Colossus
Lodestone Golem

Almost anything else is answerable by some other means:

Metalworker = Null Rod
Steel Hellkite = Null Rod + bounce + Qasali Pridemage
Phyrexian Revoker = Trygon Predator + Qasali Pridemage
Slash Panther = Qasali Pridemage + Trygon Predator

Anyway, I dunno. Running Swords might be solid, but consider this:

Would you keep them MD vs. Cobra/Bob Gush as opposed to something like Flusterstorm replacing them from the SB? I wouldn't. There's no need to remove Cobra if you have an answer like Flusterstorm to shut down the engine. One could argue that removing Confidant is far more important because of the card advantage that Confidant provides but I'd rather just trump Confidant with with my Selkie. You draw 1 and pay life? Sure, I'll draw 2-3 and pay 0 life. Instead of killing Confidant I'd rather just run a counter like Flusterstorm that is essentially uncounterable in that match-up.

What does Steel Sabotage do that STP does not? Well, lots.

1. Counter a Lotus
2. Bounce a Blightsteel without giving your opponent 11 life.
3. Counter a Sphere (very important).
4. Bounce a Sphere so you can then resolve a Trygon Predator.

I'll grant you that Welder is more of a problem without STP and Welder Shops might be tough to beat without it, but I'm not seeing that deck played very often and I'll wait to see a significant metagame shift before I consider STP a necessity. Against creatures like Goyf you simply race with your Exalted Goyfs.

@Guli — I want to explain something about my philosophy on tempo as it pertains to Vintage only.

Decks in Vintage do broken things starting from turn 1. If you can't interact *ON* turn one then you better have a very good reason. If you can't then interact more advantageously on turn two you probably just lost. The struggle continues turn after turn until someone runs out of effective ways to interact or breaks the stranglehold with a bomb that gets through. Obviously, there are god draws, and dead draws that can be drawn by both players, but most decks in Vintage are designed to do something unfair early with an average draw. I think you somewhat miss this point when designing your decks. Consider the list you just posted:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch

1 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
1 Forest

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Trygon Predator
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stony Silence
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 4 Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter

How do you interact on turn 1 other than with Mental Misstep? On the play? on the draw? My list has 11 ways to interact on turn 1 when on the play and 7 when on the draw. Those numbers are significantly higher than yours (Actually Waste/Strip makes for 5 more ways to interact on turn 1, but those are highly variable). Now, I realize that Fish sacrifices some consistency in turn 1 interaction in order to lock down the game on turns 2-3. Aether Vial would be absolutely unplayable if this were not the case (I still think it is not a good choice at the moment and probably rarely ever is a good choice in light of shops running stuff like Phyrexian Revoker now), but you still have to acknowledge and respect the power of broken plays on turn 1 and Force of Will is the most flexible way to do this. If you can run Force of Will in Vintage and don't you are probably designing your deck wrong. Fast combo is the only deck that might not need Force and even then I wouldn't rule it out. Now I'd like to note that Legacy is totally different. Force is, by no means needed in every deck running blue there.

Now, how do you interact on turn 2? Well, now your deck actually has some mustard. Let's see:

Revoker, Meddling Mage, Stony Silence, Trygon Predator (assuming accel), Image (if you have something to copy).

So you have some options now, but they are still weaker than you might think. Revoker is ok, but Shops plows right through him with bigger fatties. The only thing you might hit is Welder, but usually they'll just ignore that and beat face with bigger creatures than you have. Stony Silence is nuts, but note that I'm going to update it into my list once it is legal so that is far from a unique innovation. Meddling Mage is also a card a run, but it helps to run a card like Daze + Force to protect him and ensure he resolves. Trust me, vs. Gush decks they will be trying to nail this guy. Predator is also good, but again, nothing new.

I will not take this analysis into turns 3 and beyond because your deck already fails most of the time by turn 2. Elvish Spirit Guide is not a good option because it only helps vs. Shops. Against any blue deck you'll wish those Spirit Guides were a counter or a threat. Against the mirror you'll wish they were Goyfs. Against Dredge you'll wish they were Dazes to protect your hate cards or to counter a dread return. And you may argue that Phantasmal Image is a good answer to things like Blightsteel, but it doesn't really stop your opponent from just Tendrils-ing you out. And Image falls prey to the same problem that Sculpting Steel did for shops. What if you have the Image in hand but no good creatures to copy? That will happen a statistically significant amount of times. What do you really need to copy in your own deck? Meddling Mage is about the best thing I can see and that seems marginal at best. And Snapcaster makes no sense in your deck when you can only recur STP, Mental Misstep and your 2 bombs. If you STPed once that was probably the only threat you really needed to answer so the second STP is probably never going to be needed. IMO, Snapcaster's home will be a deck that can utilize the 2/1 body for making lethal Tendrils smaller to reach OR in a true control deck with something like Vault/Key and Vendilion Clique. He is a support card and not really a powerful enough CA engine for a deck like this.

Ok, to conclude. Guli, I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm ripping your list apart, bu you need to recognize that the criticisms I'm making are not out of left field, and they are not me simply regurgitating the sentiment of tradition blindly. I've considered avenues similar to the one you suggest and found them to not work. I designed a Fish deck years ago based upon a list of Matt Elias called "The Mountains Win Again" and that was an extremely well-crafted hate deck with things like Hide//Seek that answered many of the threats of the day (Combo was far more rampant). I soon found the deck to be lacking because it was just always 1 turn behind. 1 turn in Vintage is everything and being consistently 1 turn behind is unacceptable. Saying "Next turn I would have had this one you" and revealing all your awesome sauce bombs doesn't mean diddly-poo if you are dead. Sure you'll get some Victories with your hate cards, but you have to be brutally honest about WHY you won and whether that is significant. Fish is a viable strategy in Vintage when implemented to interact with sufficient speed to lock down the opponent. Without that speed it will always be a turn behind. I don't know how to make that any more clear and I hope you take my criticism as constructive and not a personal attack because it isn't.

-Storm

[Guli]

You are highly theoretical and no offense but half of the things you say or think are not the case in real game. On the other hand, I like to ready your arguments and the things you write. BUT, when reading I recognize contradictions to actual playtesting.

My understanding of tempo is not that much different than yours. I also like to get in there with my gun and start shooting at the big guy to keep him off balance and in check and eventually surround him with my team. But I also find it important, next to enough bullets and a good gun, to have enough acceleration to get your things out. Elvish spirit Guide is good against ANYTHING because it makes your Trygon and Edric cost  . It makes your Null Rod cost  or in the newest version  . I see a lot of decks go for mana acceleration (even dredge with the fatestichers) and not always in the form of artifacts. (Workshop, Gush, Cobra, Dark Ritual, Noble, ...)

Speed is crucial for Fish. But I understand your choice, you trade speed (ESG) for more control (Daze). But don't shoot me down for trying out the more aggro route. Elvish Spirit Guide will ALWAYS work no matter what. It will always give you a  acceleration. Daze or Steel Sabotage will not always give you that control you desire. I am in favor of running Force of Will too but that is another card you are pitching so I believe you will need a more real draw engine with either Selkie or Edric. I posted that version too, for your information. The version with 1 Edric has the 4 Snap Mages main for a reason (to get some CA going, yes its not Bob but it is really closer than you think). About targets for Snap Mage. You are utterly wrong and time will show this. You don't need cute fancy targets and you don't need lot's of targets. You need only 1 target per Mage and getting back that one recall is enough really. Or taking another Time Walk. These things win games because you are already rolling down on your opponent. Having an extra STP has proven to be welcome. It ensures they can't go wild on mana (Cobra), or don't get massive CA (Dark Confidant) or don't do broken things with Welder. In the mirror it is back breaking to Snap Mage and Exile yet another Bear of theirs. Mental Misstep is all you need in a deck running multiple acceleration and 2 drops that disrupt. You just want to get to the mid game. And at that point you will have the option to replay those missteps so it all makes damn sense to me.

Still, I like the second list I posted better (with FoW and Edric) because it has this way of getting things out there fast, countering more stuff and it can refill hand consistently with Edric. Plus it has the removal with STP. Speaking of list of creatures you need to kill; you want to kill every creature out there. At least against established decks. You can't assume people are running crappy creatures right? Bloodghast and Narcoemba should be on your list. Path is in my SB for a reason. I don't see Goblin Welder in your list. No need to put Blightsteel in there, just name the creature Tinker, because you probably want to STP whatever they get. Sometimes you can't wait on your Null Rod and you have to STP the Worker. I guess you can Steel Sabotage in that situation and then hope you have ROD or draw it. If you want to cast Trygon or Qasali against Shop, you will need that STP very early on.

You are welcome to shoot down my designs all you want, I will take it gladly and respond accordingly. My advise to you, try to play more. Play testing reveals a lot more things than you might imagine or theorize. Not enough time? Then spare me the harsh comments, and try to be more conservative or careful with the claims you make. Because sometimes, they don't really match what is really going on (even if they sound extremely correct on paper). An example to illustrate what I mean (one out of many):

Phantasmal Image versus Tinker
I have until now had ONE instance (out of a massload of games) were my opponent had Voltaic Key targeting my Image and making it sacrifice. I have yet to witness a game were I cast Phantasmal Image, copy the Tinker target, and then lose the game. Just not happening, I would tell you if there was this pattern of failure, believe me. My conclusions are written all over this forum about Phantasmal Image. It is a card you don't want to run in all Fish running blue, you usually want cards like Meddling Mage, Revoker, Qasali, Trygon and other good copy targets in your deck so you maximize its potential. Very flexible card.

[serracollector]

Have either of you tested Lotus cobra yourselves in any of these proposed decklists?  I mean admittedly it probably don't happen often, but, casting a first turn Cobra of say, ESG and a Mox, then playing a fetch to cast a selkie/edric/trygon is not a bad play for fish I think.

Also cobra can power out those 4 mana GSZ alot easier to get said cards.
And, just to note, FOF might have room in a deck like this.  With Nobles, and ESG's, and Cobra's an early FOF isn't hard to cast, and alongside Edric/Selkie should really help ensure you get/find wat u need to keep answers/pressure on the opponent.  Cobra might be the jump in mana fish needs.  Just a thought.

[Guli]

Have either of you tested Lotus cobra yourselves in any of these proposed decklists?  I mean admittedly it probably don't happen often, but, casting a first turn Cobra of say, ESG and a Mox, then playing a fetch to cast a selkie/edric/trygon is not a bad play for fish I think.

Also cobra can power out those 4 mana GSZ alot easier to get said cards.
And, just to note, FOF might have room in a deck like this.  With Nobles, and ESG's, and Cobra's an early FOF isn't hard to cast, and alongside Edric/Selkie should really help ensure you get/find wat u need to keep answers/pressure on the opponent.  Cobra might be the jump in mana fish needs.  Just a thought.

Yes I tested it and it works but not the same way it works like in a Gush deck. You get the boost and power out your hand but then your empty and dry. Maybe a list with Cobra/Edric to have mana/cards could work. I like the idea of Cobra/Zenith because you can get Edric that way too.

In my list I was powering out Vendilions and Aven's in combination with Gaddock and Maralen. Cobra was a powerful mana acceleration and mana fixer. But I felt like I was too 'Cobra' oriented this way. But I can see Cobra work in a 3-4 color deck if you don't stretch out too much like double  or  .

[nineisnoone]

@Meddling Mage (the card)

To be honest, the only thing that I really like him for is combating a Drain heavy metagame. The problem with trying to engines or combos is that everything else usually can be compensated for. You don't really have to do *everything,* just do what you can. When the rest of your list is going a bunch of broken bombs, stopping them from drawing only matters once they run out of gas... and that is very much up in the air with how fast win conditions are. I like him against Drain because it forces issues now rather than later. Sure you can call FoW, but then that means you aren't running it.

"Knowing" what to call with Mage is sort of a fallacy. Yes, experience/reading the opponent, but that's not the issue. The fact is Mage interacts with an opponents expectations rather than their actual deck. If we can assume that you can perfectly call Mage, then it makes sense (probably more) that the opponent can perfectly play after Mage. That is the reason why I mostly prefer Drain/FoW with Mage. Since they are reactive plays, the player doesn't choose them, they use them to respond to the opponent (you) and thus it becomes something you can control rather than the opponent.

@Probe
While it makes your deck smaller, it makes your mulligans harder. I'm not sure this is actually a drawback, or if it's just something that needs to be practiced and perfected, but seeing 2 probes in your opening hand means its very difficult to make a correct decision (odd since when the card is played it's the other way around).  Personally, I think that is a big enough reason to just run 2 if you are just running it for kicks.

[brokenbacon]

You are highly theoretical and no offense but half of the things you say or think are not the case in real game. On the other hand, I like to ready your arguments and the things you write. BUT, when reading I recognize contradictions to actual playtesting.

My understanding of tempo is not that much different than yours. I also like to get in there with my gun and start shooting at the big guy to keep him off balance and in check and eventually surround him with my team. But I also find it important, next to enough bullets and a good gun, to have enough acceleration to get your things out. Elvish spirit Guide is good against ANYTHING because it makes your Trygon and Edric cost  . It makes your Null Rod cost  or in the newest version  . I see a lot of decks go for mana acceleration (even dredge with the fatestichers) and not always in the form of artifacts. (Workshop, Gush, Cobra, Dark Ritual, Noble, ...)

Speed is crucial for Fish. But I understand your choice, you trade speed (ESG) for more control (Daze). But don't shoot me down for trying out the more aggro route. Elvish Spirit Guide will ALWAYS work no matter what. It will always give you a  acceleration. Daze or Steel Sabotage will not always give you that control you desire. I am in favor of running Force of Will too but that is another card you are pitching so I believe you will need a more real draw engine with either Selkie or Edric. I posted that version too, for your information. The version with 1 Edric has the 4 Snap Mages main for a reason (to get some CA going, yes its not Bob but it is really closer than you think). About targets for Snap Mage. You are utterly wrong and time will show this. You don't need cute fancy targets and you don't need lot's of targets. You need only 1 target per Mage and getting back that one recall is enough really. Or taking another Time Walk. These things win games because you are already rolling down on your opponent. Having an extra STP has proven to be welcome. It ensures they can't go wild on mana (Cobra), or don't get massive CA (Dark Confidant) or don't do broken things with Welder. In the mirror it is back breaking to Snap Mage and Exile yet another Bear of theirs. Mental Misstep is all you need in a deck running multiple acceleration and 2 drops that disrupt. You just want to get to the mid game. And at that point you will have the option to replay those missteps so it all makes damn sense to me.

Still, I like the second list I posted better (with FoW and Edric) because it has this way of getting things out there fast, countering more stuff and it can refill hand consistently with Edric. Plus it has the removal with STP. Speaking of list of creatures you need to kill; you want to kill every creature out there. At least against established decks. You can't assume people are running crappy creatures right? Bloodghast and Narcoemba should be on your list. Path is in my SB for a reason. I don't see Goblin Welder in your list. No need to put Blightsteel in there, just name the creature Tinker, because you probably want to STP whatever they get. Sometimes you can't wait on your Null Rod and you have to STP the Worker. I guess you can Steel Sabotage in that situation and then hope you have ROD or draw it. If you want to cast Trygon or Qasali against Shop, you will need that STP very early on.

You are welcome to shoot down my designs all you want, I will take it gladly and respond accordingly. My advise to you, try to play more. Play testing reveals a lot more things than you might imagine or theorize. Not enough time? Then spare me the harsh comments, and try to be more conservative or careful with the claims you make. Because sometimes, they don't really match what is really going on (even if they sound extremely correct on paper). An example to illustrate what I mean (one out of many):

Phantasmal Image versus Tinker
I have until now had ONE instance (out of a massload of games) were my opponent had Voltaic Key targeting my Image and making it sacrifice. I have yet to witness a game were I cast Phantasmal Image, copy the Tinker target, and then lose the game. Just not happening, I would tell you if there was this pattern of failure, believe me. My conclusions are written all over this forum about Phantasmal Image. It is a card you don't want to run in all Fish running blue, you usually want cards like Meddling Mage, Revoker, Qasali, Trygon and other good copy targets in your deck so you maximize its potential. Very flexible card.

Let's hope this doesn't turn out to be a flame war, but I feel obligated to say this.

Stormanimagus:
"you still have to acknowledge and respect the power of broken plays on turn 1 and Force of Will is the most flexible way to do this. If you can run Force of Will in Vintage and don't you are probably designing your deck wrong."

Guli:
"You are highly theoretical and no offense but half of the things you say or think are not the case in real game. On the other hand, I like to ready your arguments and the things you write. BUT, when reading I recognize contradictions to actual playtesting."

"Contradictions to actual playtesting?" Are you testing against MUD, or Wild Nacatl.dec? If you post what your actual playtesting consists of (i.e., what meta), maybe your points would be more valid. As of right now, you might as well say "In my testing on (MWS or Cockatrice), I have consistently beaten every Goblins deck and White deck the 'meta' has thrown at me." Nobody is going to take that seriously, because neither of those decks have made the top 8 of any major Vintage tournament since any of us can remember.

"Highly theoretical?" First of all, your argument is ad hominem. You attack Storm himself in order to direct attention away from the fact that he is right. I admit, I personally may not agree with some of the things he may have said in his post. However, this does not warrant an attack on his person. His points are well developed and intelligent. Therefore, he does not deserve a "no offense, but you are 'x'" type of comment. The insertion of "no offense" before an offensive statement does absolutely nothing to soften the blow - if anything, it makes it even more of a "below the belt" attack.

Second, look at the home page for Morphling.de, and you will see a list of most-played cards for August 2011. What is first on that list? A highly theoretical card, Force of Will. Mental Misstep did the job covering for Force in Legacy because many relevant cards in that format cost 1 mana (Aether Vial, Brainstorm, Spell Snare, SDT, etc.). In Vintage, this is far from true. The most important card in the format is not Aether Vial.

Don't get me wrong. I love Mental Misstep. I play 2 of them in my Tezz list, 3 post board. However, I also play 4 Forces, 3 Drains, and 2 Thoughtseizes. Misstep covers for you when your pants are down against small tempo-gaining cards and the occasional bomb, such as Ancestral Recall or Fastbond. It does not, however, protect you at all against the following (to name a few):

Trinisphere
Tangle Wire
Lodestone Golem
Mana Drain
Dark Confidant
Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Yawgmoth's Will
Tinker
Gush
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Black Lotus

I am aware of the fact that you may have answers to these cards in your deck. However, those answers can be stopped by what card? You guessed it: Force of Will.
Storm is right - when you are 1 turn behind in Vintage, that is often more than enough to seal the deal. Turn 1 of any game of Vintage should be either ridiculously broken, or a preemptive counter to anything ridiculously broken. Holding up a turn 1 Misstep in order to dam up a potential river of insane plays just won't cut it.
So do yourself a favor: play the best counterspell ever, and get off your high horse.

[Guli]

It is not about Force of Will. I do run it for your information. It is about posting things on this forum that are not projecting what is really happening on the battlefield.

Do you honestly think that everybody has tested Fish/GWxbeats/other variants... to its fullest potential? A lot of people just prefer to play the established and solid tier 1 decks. And that is fine, really I have nothing against that. I also run those decks and I know how powerful they are (for example Gush.dec). There is a limited amount of people who are actually seriously testing and tuning these Aggro Control decks against those tier 1 decks. I am one of those people and that gives me the right to speak and share about my findings. Nobody has to agree or follow my lead, understood. However, I know that Storm does not get the chance to play a lot (he told me so) and I can read this in his posts. This does not mean Storm can't criticize me. We talk about magic, we criticize each other from time to time and nobody is seeing that as a 'flame war'. I actually like the heavy discussions more (if it doesn't become personal of course) and MODS should encourage them more and refrain from interfering too often (again, it should never be personal, some posters actually dare to do this and get away with it).

I run al kinds of versions, so I think it is truly a loss of time to point out to me that I don't run FoW. I do run it, but I also try builds without it to see how it goes. My post emphasized the tension between speed and control in aggro control. Daze is an option not a necessity. I can understand that some people might consider FoW a necessity, fair enough, but even that should be put on the evaluation bench. I believe this is the right attitude, no auto include. Counting how many ways you have to interact on a specific turn is one way to build a deck. I count how many ways I have to pull of a turn one 2 drop with Elvish Spirit Guide, Moxes and Black Lotus. So let's discuss the real issue I pointed out instead of talking in circles.

Speed/Acceleration (Proactive) or Control (Reactive)?

[nineisnoone]

Good lord, so much drama.

quick thoughts.

FoW is not necessary (see G/W hatebears, Duress/Throughtsieze oriented control, Dredge, Shops... there are variations of both that can run FoW). Though certainly in the Guli's lists shown, the one with FoW was much much better.

Snapcaster is not good (especially as a 4 of) if all are going to do is re-cast Recall and Time Walk. You do not even have a reliable way of getting either card.

ESG into hate is fine, but ESG into a late Predator/Eldric are medicore plays. There is tons of good removal (ahem STP), and walking into a 2 for one, for something that doesn't impact until the next turn is not strong.

I have no real opinion on PI. I don't plan on ever running it, but sure whatever. Run it.

Storm likes Daze. He one of the few that I've seen who posts lists with it. I'm not big on it as it becomes irrelevant too fast. I'm sure it'll randomly win you a few (and that might be your thing), but the loss of the land drop is not insignificant, the emergence of legit 1 mana counters give it serious competition, and mental misstep makes it a bit redundant.

STP/Sabotage - Sabotage is baller. STP is good too. I think (Storm) relies a bit on Pridemage to much for Shops. They do run Revoker. I'd say run Claim, but that makes you vulnerable to Chalice @1. You can't really go wrong (or right I guess) with either.

Proactive is fine, but proactive to do reactive (PI, Meddling), situational (Snapcaster), or slow (Eldric, Predator) plays are weaker because the delay created while you are acclerating is not paid off quickly (see Teeg, Rod, Stony).

I wouldn't run Noble Hierarch and ESG in the same deck.  Noble Fish and Spirit Fish (a name I just made up) are different variants with different purposes. Noble is more for long term attrition, whereas ESG is more for the quick hate. Running both seems to draw the deck into too many directions and occupy too many card slots.

[tito del monte]

Storm likes Daze. He one of the few that I've seen who posts lists with it. I'm not big on it as it becomes irrelevant too fast. I'm sure it'll randomly win you a few (and that might be your thing), but the loss of the land drop is not insignificant, the emergence of legit 1 mana counters give it serious competition, and mental misstep makes it a bit redundant.

I'm not sure how true this is - I definitely think Daze still has a place, mainly because most of your disruption remains creature based. That means of the counter spells an opposing blue deck can possibly be packing, they can only respond with FOW or Drain (not Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm, or apart from targeting Hierarch, Misstep) - i.e they won't be countering your creatures with a 1cmc counter, meaning you want something other Misstep to respond and push your threat through. I wouldn't play four, only three but I think as long as Fish tries to deny mana, and tries to quickly play threats (tapping out in the process), it has a place.

Alternatives would be I guess Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm - or more marginal options like Spell Snare or Dispel.

I think from Storm's latest list which I've only sleeved up and goldfished, there's room to adapt to suit your playstyle by dropping one daze and maybe one Null Rod (or Stony Silence), to give room for say two STPs or a Flusterstorm and an STP.

EDIT: Quick question, which I'm pretty sure I know the answer to: Does Mindbreak Trap count Storm copies of Flusterstorm as being cast? I assume not, but if so, might be a handy somewhere in the 75 if people start Snapcasting Flusterstorm all over the shop..

[nineisnoone]

Storm likes Daze. He one of the few that I've seen who posts lists with it. I'm not big on it as it becomes irrelevant too fast. I'm sure it'll randomly win you a few (and that might be your thing), but the loss of the land drop is not insignificant, the emergence of legit 1 mana counters give it serious competition, and mental misstep makes it a bit redundant.

I'm not sure how true this is - I definitely think Daze still has a place, mainly because most of your disruption remains creature based. That means of the counter spells an opposing blue deck can possibly be packing, they can only respond with FOW or Drain (not Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm, or apart from targeting Hierarch, Misstep) - i.e they won't be countering your creatures with a 1cmc counter, meaning you want something other Misstep to respond and push your threat through. I wouldn't play four, only three but I think as long as Fish tries to deny mana, and tries to quickly play threats (tapping out in the process), it has a place.

Alternatives would be I guess Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm - or more marginal options like Spell Snare or Dispel.

I think from Storm's latest list which I've only sleeved up and goldfished, there's room to adapt to suit your playstyle by dropping one daze and maybe one Null Rod (or Stony Silence), to give room for say two STPs or a Flusterstorm and an STP.

EDIT: Quick question, which I'm pretty sure I know the answer to: Does Mindbreak Trap count Storm copies of Flusterstorm as being cast? I assume not, but if so, might be a handy somewhere in the 75 if people start Snapcasting Flusterstorm all over the shop..

Generally, I don't worry too much about getting things countered. Usually, if someone FoW's defensively, I count it as a slight advantage. I two-for-one'd them and weakened their inevitable defensive counter wall. there really isn't much Drain so they aren't likely going to get a value counter. So long as you have a good threat density (and a decent hand), you just play the next thing until it finally sticks.  I hold onto my counter spells to stop them from winning, not to protect my own spells. Whatever it is you played, isn't going to be stronger than the broken stuff they can cast.

The main real value I see to it is that it counters everything (or attempts at least). The 1 counters are all somewhat narrow, but Daze can potentially hit anything. There is also an illusory value of forcing them to play around it, but that's somewhat hard to quantify. At most, I'd run 1. But that's me.  I certainly wouldn't cut any Stony (maybe a Null Rod if you run 4x Stony... and you should) from this deck.

[Guli]

Storm likes Daze. He one of the few that I've seen who posts lists with it. I'm not big on it as it becomes irrelevant too fast. I'm sure it'll randomly win you a few (and that might be your thing), but the loss of the land drop is not insignificant, the emergence of legit 1 mana counters give it serious competition, and mental misstep makes it a bit redundant.

I'm not sure how true this is - I definitely think Daze still has a place, mainly because most of your disruption remains creature based. That means of the counter spells an opposing blue deck can possibly be packing, they can only respond with FOW or Drain (not Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm, or apart from targeting Hierarch, Misstep) - i.e they won't be countering your creatures with a 1cmc counter, meaning you want something other Misstep to respond and push your threat through. I wouldn't play four, only three but I think as long as Fish tries to deny mana, and tries to quickly play threats (tapping out in the process), it has a place.

Alternatives would be I guess Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm - or more marginal options like Spell Snare or Dispel.

I think from Storm's latest list which I've only sleeved up and goldfished, there's room to adapt to suit your playstyle by dropping one daze and maybe one Null Rod (or Stony Silence), to give room for say two STPs or a Flusterstorm and an STP.

EDIT: Quick question, which I'm pretty sure I know the answer to: Does Mindbreak Trap count Storm copies of Flusterstorm as being cast? I assume not, but if so, might be a handy somewhere in the 75 if people start Snapcasting Flusterstorm all over the shop..

Generally, I don't worry too much about getting things countered. Usually, if someone FoW's defensively, I count it as a slight advantage. I two-for-one'd them and weakened their inevitable defensive counter wall. there really isn't much Drain so they aren't likely going to get a value counter. So long as you have a good threat density (and a decent hand), you just play the next thing until it finally sticks.  I hold onto my counter spells to stop them from winning, not to protect my own spells. Whatever it is you played, isn't going to be stronger than the broken stuff they can cast.

That is very interesting. But somehow, at best with hand size of 7, it doesn't really feel like we can follow this strategy on regular basis. Do you really have the luxury to play like this every single game? Not getting through your bears also means your clock is seriously slowing down and I don't think that this will benefit you because in the long run they have more means of digging, drawing and setting up and will eventually overwhelm you. What I do like is that with this strategy you also don't really need to protect your threats because you are saying, 'I have more to come'. Now it is more clear to me what you mean with attrition war (you spoke of this in the past). How do you refill your hand with counters to cut them off their bombs? Selkie? Edric? Care to post a list?

[nineisnoone]

I don't have any new lists really. Fish isn't that much changed, aside from some swaps here and there. None of the builds thus far proposed are radically new.

Luxury? I don't call it a luxury, that's just the way it is when you play an underpowered deck. You have to prioritize and choose your battles. Use Force to get a Noble Heirarch through or counter Tinker? Luxury would be able to do both, not one or the other.

As far as attrition...

Consider a Fish deck to work be composed of X and Y. Let's ignore mana. X is the disruption/creatures. Y is the permission/counters.

Control plays a deck composed of A, B, and C. A is their win conditions. B is there draw/tutor/dig to streamline the deck. C is the permission/counters.

Typically, Fish and Control run equal numbers of permission (in the 8+ range). So let's say that those even out. Y - C = 0.

So we are left with A, B, and X.  A > X > B is how it breaks down.  Their bombs trump your everything. But your everything actually does something which is more than their draw/tutor/dig does on it's own.

So if you get them to counter X, then you break parity with counters.

Now if they try to play A, then you can win with counters since you have more then them. But they can get more CA then you? How? You can counter their card advantage.

Let's not also forget that many spells do not offer CA immediately (Dark Confidant) or at all (Preordain) or are slowish (Jace). This isn't Scroll -> Recall or even Thirst/Brainstorm. These impacts aren't going to be felt for a few turns when the costs are paid or paid back. These plays become trumped by your plays since they have an immediate impact (assuming you pick those with immediate impacts). They can either accept it and operate at a disadvantage for awhile or they can counter it and be at an even larger disadvantage with permission for when they need it.

Of course, there are times when you do want to protect your plays. And there are times when they will just have more counters due to deck composition or luck. I'm not making a rule, just an observation that getting something Forced isn't game over. It is, in fact, +1 card advantage for 2 mana (if you played a 2 mana spell), which --Night's Whispers non-existence in the meta not withstanding-- is generally considered a fairly solid play.

As far as refilling your hand; personally, I've always been more fond of Dark Confidant or a Bazaar style deck, than Selkie or Standstill. And there is also going strictly off your natural draw, which is fairly common for GW style decks. 

GW usually isn't my thing, but it does keep getting better and better.
I think Standstill is a card worthy of getting more attention. (Standstill Anticipation?  Janky, but amusing to think about)
Selkie, I view as being mostly a counter to Dark Confidant. Confidant is a fairly slow draw engine, giving time for Selkie to get set up and overtake him. But against other other decks (shops) or draw options (Jace), it doesn't perform as well.
Eldric, I have no experience with, but seems win more compared to Confidant or Selkie.

[psyburat]

Just wanted to alert everyone that my personalized post-Innistrad version of the deck was featured in Mark Hornung's article today, complete with a good write-up about the changes that were made: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/22846_Picking_Brains_The_Innistrad_Vintage_Review.html

[nogz]

I like the build that placed 2nd in bloomburg. Here's the list. I might go with this build but might have some changes on the SB. I might put in 3 steel sabotage in the SB for shops MU. Still gonna try though.

Maindeck :
4 noble hierarch
4 qasali pridemage
3 trygon predator
3 cold-eyed selkie
3 meddling mage
2 vendilion clique
4 force of will
3 daze
3 mental misstep
3 spell pierce
2 swords to plowshares
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 jace, the mind sculptor
3 null rod
1 black lotus
1 mox sapphire
1 mox pearl
1 mox emerald
3 misty rainforest
1 flooded strand
3 wasteland
1 strip mine
3 tropical island
2 tundra
1 island
1 forest

SB:
1 flusterstorm
1 hurkyl's recall
2 nature's claim
2 swords to plowshares
2 sower of temptation
2 mindbreak trap
2 tormod's crypt
3 relic of progenitus

[serracollector]

So, I am testing a new base for my deck:

4 ESG
4 Nobles
4 Lotus Cobra
4 GSZ


This lets you either get a first turn Cobra, turn 2 GSZ, or first turn Noble, turn 2 Cobra and GSZ, or a turn 1 GSZ for a Cobra or Noble, and go off from there.

Possible Inclusions:
Teeg (not sure as I really want to keep 4 GSZ in)
Edric
Trygon
Selkie
Qasali
Nimble Mongoose (don't laugh, easily a 3/3 with shroud)
Tarmogoyf
Vexing Shusher
Any cip destroy an artifact (shaman, ukatabi, renegades, etc, etc)
Argothian Pixies (haha at your blightsteel....)
Dryad Arbor (powers both Cobra, and Edric, still testing)
??????

I don't know all the gold cards/double mana cards that include green, that are also fast enough/viable for t1, but in the limited testing I have done, GSZ has yet to let me down.  Finding any answer for situation X right now is always good.  And I think GSZ allows the fish decks to do this, and as more cards are printed, I think it will just get better.  We need a BG critter with built in duress....

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

I just wanted to quickly point out that stony-cold-silent nuts lives up to its name. It is the "oh, i have no answers to this in my deck" null rod.
Even if people include answers against it, they have to be specific ones, not the usual anti tinker/mud card which happens to win against fish as well. I lost to it hard, many games in a row. It is very, vey good.

[Phele]

Even if people include answers against it, they have to be specific ones, not the usual anti tinker/mud card which happens to win against fish as well.

So I probably would include a combination of Steel Sabotage and Echoing Truth main, which is still pretty flexible. Or Natures Claim and Hurkyls if you are on green.  Steel and Claim are nice spells to have in many situations against a wide variety of decks and Echoing Truth can help against Tokens of any kind (and blightsteel as well for sure). Another way would be to play a deck which isn't that vulnerable against Rod/Silence like most of the Gush builds, but that's another piece of paper.

[Stormanimagus]

@nogz --> Running a list with 0 Tarmogoyf seems a bit dangerous to me, but perhaps it can work. I think one should probably run at least 1 Goyf with GSZ though considering how efficiently he can "get there" when you have your opponent under a soft lock. I will consider this design possibility and post a list a bit later. I'm going to have to give it some thought though.

-Storm

[Tha Gunslinga]

Argothian Pixies doesn't work vs Blightsteel, just fyi.  Trample lets them assign the other 10 damage over it.

[nineisnoone]

after studying demar's drain/snapcaster, deck i'm messing around trying to make a deck that runs Noble + Stony + Snapcaster + Drains, with the win con as Snapcaster beats. you could also run tarm's if you want to, but i trying without.

stony seems a bit werid with Drains, since one is small mana and the other is big mana, but since you have noble you can get turn 2 drains fairly consistently, which works well. Snapcaster is a strong Drain outlet as well. but overall it's been working well, with fow, noble, misstep turn 1 into turn 2 drain/stony.

i'm also liking compulsion in the deck as well as it is very good against shops (cycles under lock pieces and decently quick to play), good for control mirrors, and is a good drain outlet. Jace has been a bit too expensive, though nice if he does drop. Generally, i like flusterstorm more than misstep, but with running Stony and Snapcaster, it seems like a better choice since Claim is going to be important against control.

[Stormanimagus]

@nineisnoone — Mana Drain + Snapcaster you say? Huh. That is very intriguing. After examining your idea I've found that white seems not needed in such a list any more. What about something like this:


Taigo-Drums

(for Taigo Chan )

Land (18):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Dryad Arbor

Artifacts (6):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
3 Null Rod

Planeswalkers (1):
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Creatures (11):
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

Instants (19):
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Dismember
1 Nature's Claim

Sorceries (5):
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Green Sun’s Zenith

SB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
3 Nature’s Claim
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Sower of Temptation
3 Flusterstorm
1 Gaddock Teeg

[nineisnoone]

Green Sun's Zenith? Can you explain it's purpose? As I see it... basic play is for Dryad Arbor, and it can used with Snapcaster, but that seems kind meh. XG doesn't really do anything huge (i.e. Drain) and going beyond Arbor would require a lot of mana during the main phase. Have you tested Mana Leak? Tropical Island, GSZ->Arbor, sets you up nicely for a turn 2 Leak (a very underrated counter imo)

I was following a more traditional Noble build with Heirarch and swapping Rods for Stonys.

[Stormanimagus]

Green Sun's Zenith? Can you explain it's purpose? As I see it... basic play is for Dryad Arbor, and it can used with Snapcaster, but that seems kind meh. XG doesn't really do anything huge (i.e. Drain) and going beyond Arbor would require a lot of mana during the main phase. Have you tested Mana Leak? Tropical Island, GSZ->Arbor, sets you up nicely for a turn 2 Leak (a very underrated counter imo)

I was following a more traditional Noble build with Heirarch and swapping Rods for Stonys.

Think of GSZ as primarily serving as a Noble replacement in this deck that is more synergistic than Noble with the rest of the deck. This deck wants to attack with 2/1's and 2/2's and even 1/1's because Edric draws you more cards PER creature you attack with. Llanowar Elves then becomes better than Noble (since you only have a dual mana requirement overall) and Dryad Arbor is better than both when coupled with GSZ. GSZ also searches up Edric to Finish the game as well as your 1 Goyf. This basically frees up a lot of slots to let you play balls-to-the-walls control and fully utilize slots for a robust Instant package that allows Snapcaster to Shine. This deck is highly experimental, and I am certainly skeptical of just calling it good, but it is certainly a unique take on the archetype of fish. I might even consider running 3 Dryad Arbor if I could find the room but 2 seems to get the job done most of the time. If you have any more questions feel free to pm me.

-Storm