[Free Article] So Many Insane Plays -- Reviving Vintage

[Purple Hat]

.  I guarantee if you put up 5k you would get a lot more players with 15 proxies then 5 or 0.   

Of course.   For any given event, more proxies rather than less will tend to increase attendance.   That's a given. 

so...if for any given event more proxies = more attendance how can you claim that for all events more proxies decreases attendence?

I don't go to events and I don't face significant collection based restrictions.  It's just difficult to find the time/justification for driving longer than I can reasonably expect to be playing to attend an event.

[Suicideking]

.  I guarantee if you put up 5k you would get a lot more players with 15 proxies then 5 or 0.   

Of course.   For any given event, more proxies rather than less will tend to increase attendance.   That's a given. 

But i still fail to see how driving the price of power upward will cause an increase in the vintage community.  Yes people will value owning power because they can play in events, but still doesnt change the fact that more players are leaving vintage then are starting.  That is the major flaw.  Wizards doesnt support the format.  People are trying to make it more expensive to get into it.  And sites like this have elitist sections that dont get posted in but serve as a status symbol to keep up vintages reputation as the old boys club of magic.

I think the format sucks right now.  I've been more successful since brainstorm was restricted then i ever have been, but I would give up the power I've won to play in the gush metagame again.  I'm considering quiting vintage, and I could easily get a set of power together if I wanted to.  It's just really really dull right now.

[Troy_Costisick]

.  I guarantee if you put up 5k you would get a lot more players with 15 proxies then 5 or 0.   

Of course.   For any given event, more proxies rather than less will tend to increase attendance.   That's a given. 

But i still fail to see how driving the price of power upward will cause an increase in the vintage community.  

I don't think that anyone is advocating making Power more costly to buy.  Instead, the emphasis is on creating more intrinisic value in owning it. 

I think the format sucks right now.  I've been more successful since brainstorm was restricted then i ever have been, but I would give up the power I've won to play in the gush metagame again.  I'm considering quiting vintage, and I could easily get a set of power together if I wanted to.  It's just really really dull right now.

I'm not sure it sucks right now, but I do echo your sentiment that the Gush era was preferable.  I don't want to clog up this thread with talk of that, though.  So I'm going to leave it there for now.

Peace,

-Troy

[Smmenen]

.  I guarantee if you put up 5k you would get a lot more players with 15 proxies then 5 or 0.   

Of course.   For any given event, more proxies rather than less will tend to increase attendance.   That's a given. 

so...if for any given event more proxies = more attendance how can you claim that for all events more proxies decreases attendence?

Well, that's what the article is about

The distinction I draw is between short-term v. long-term.   The requirements for growth of Vintage in both time frames is different, even though there are areas overlap. 

This principle of the distinction between the requirements for growth in the short term and long run are well understood in business, finance, agriculture, and many other settings.

.  I guarantee if you put up 5k you would get a lot more players with 15 proxies then 5 or 0.   

Of course.   For any given event, more proxies rather than less will tend to increase attendance.   That's a given. 

But i still fail to see how driving the price of power upward will cause an increase in the vintage community.

It won't.   no one is saying that.

[Diakonov]

Back in the day, players would slowly accumulate power, and proxies and a culture of letting people borrow power enabled that.   Today, there is no incentive at all to acquire or hold onto power. In fact, it's stupid to do so since for most Americans there is only one tournament per year in which you need to own power.    This feeds back on itself since players like myself, who used to have 4 Mox Sapphires to loan out, or Marc Perez, who used to have multiple sets of P9 to loan out, only have one for ourselves anymore.   

Maybe if there were more than one large tournament a year, sanctioned or low proxy or whatever you want, then there would be more interest in owning power. I think it has very little to do with the "proxy culture" and more to do with simply not having any tournaments that are worth traveling 500 miles to.

Heh.  You really don't think that having a 15 proxy standard is a good reason not to own power?

Now, I definitely didn't say that. I happen to agree with your logic. I also happen to think that there are way more productive lines of reasoning than "proxies are killing vintage in the long term". This would be a non-issue if there were tournaments to attend.

I'm pretty sure that when he brought up the rarity of tournaments, he was talking specifically about those that are sanctioned or low-proxy.  I suppose it does depend on where you live, but at least around here (NE) there are more than enough tournaments to attend; it's just that they tend to be 10 or more proxy.

Regardless, the frequency/location of tournaments isn't really a variable that we have much direct control over as a community.  Unless we suddenly have a new wave of people who are willing to bear the flag of hosting more tournaments, what we have now is what we get.  The accepted number of proxies is something within our control.

[elgrillo]

Well, that's what the article is about

The distinction I draw is between short-term v. long-term.   The requirements for growth of Vintage in both time frames is different, even though there are areas overlap. 

This principle of the distinction between the requirements for growth in the short term and long run are well understood in business, finance, agriculture, and many other settings.

I agree with your view there. The long term health of vintage has to be analyzed and planned the way a business or service has to be planned.
We all have the right to speak our minds, and store owners, tournament organizers and most definitely Wizards should pay attention.
But in the end they have to measure in a professional manner wich things will work for the good of the format in the long run . I really want vintage to last many more years from now.

[benthetenor]

Back in the day, players would slowly accumulate power, and proxies and a culture of letting people borrow power enabled that.   Today, there is no incentive at all to acquire or hold onto power. In fact, it's stupid to do so since for most Americans there is only one tournament per year in which you need to own power.    This feeds back on itself since players like myself, who used to have 4 Mox Sapphires to loan out, or Marc Perez, who used to have multiple sets of P9 to loan out, only have one for ourselves anymore.   

Maybe if there were more than one large tournament a year, sanctioned or low proxy or whatever you want, then there would be more interest in owning power. I think it has very little to do with the "proxy culture" and more to do with simply not having any tournaments that are worth traveling 500 miles to.

Heh.  You really don't think that having a 15 proxy standard is a good reason not to own power?

Now, I definitely didn't say that. I happen to agree with your logic. I also happen to think that there are way more productive lines of reasoning than "proxies are killing vintage in the long term". This would be a non-issue if there were tournaments to attend.

I'm pretty sure that when he brought up the rarity of tournaments, he was talking specifically about those that are sanctioned or low-proxy.  I suppose it does depend on where you live, but at least around here (NE) there are more than enough tournaments to attend; it's just that they tend to be 10 or more proxy.

Regardless, the frequency/location of tournaments isn't really a variable that we have much direct control over as a community.  Unless we suddenly have a new wave of people who are willing to bear the flag of hosting more tournaments, what we have now is what we get.  The accepted number of proxies is something within our control.

I'm quite sure that the NE is the only region in the country that has consistent tournaments. For those of us not living in the original 13 colonies, the only large tournament we get is once a year: Gencon. When that is the case, there is precisely zero interest in playing Vintage Magic, let alone owning power. Who tests for 12 months for a single tournament, with nothing in the mean time?

I understand that the point of your post is "it's not an issue, so I'm not going to think it through", but for a lot of the country, it is a rather large issue. But your statement didn't make logical sense.

If we don't have any control over when and where tournaments are being hosted, then how do we have any control over the status of proxies at those events? If we are able to tell at TO how many proxies to allow in his tournament, then surely we can tell him to have more/less/bigger tournaments, and where to have them. He or she is going to listen if they think it's worth their while, and are surely not going to take orders. We have managed as a community to convince TOs that proxies = greater turnout. Why is it so hard to believe that we could not similarly convince them that different location = greater turnout? It's not as easy for them to change venue as it is to change the rules of the tournament, but it's not impossible. And when the possible windfall is tournaments with 100+ people (rather than a paltry 30 or 40 or 50), a lot of TOs will listen.

[Marske]

Ok, first of all to get some stuff straight before I start with my post and people think I'm just flaming or something.

Steve, I respect you as a player and everything you have done for Vintage as a format, I enjoy your articles on a regular basis and have a premium membership on SCG mostly because of the articles you write (and obviously some other stuff by players like Patrick Chapin etc.) I think people already have seen some of my posts and I'm a pretty familiar face on TMD as far as one can be on the internet, everyone from the Netherlands or Belgium will probably know me by face and most of them know I'm a pretty laid back person who will always seek the most logical way of explaining things without attacking a person straight on. I'll try and do the same with this post but if I offend you or anybody reading this please accept my humble apologies in advance this was not my intention.

I'll try to break my post down in sections to not lose track of what I'm trying to say, so here goes.

The great proxie discussion
I've said this before and I'll say it again proxies are NOT the problem Vintage has, imo as a TO and player it's "lazy" TO's, bad PR, bad teamwork if any between TO's.

For example please take a look at this post I made a while back:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37698.0

This was before my event took place, it was a 10 proxy Vintage event for a mox and drain nothing really "special" like BOM or Eurovino or the TMD open. Yet we managed to get 61 (yes you read it right sixty one) people playing in the event. You can't say that the 10 proxy limit we have brings down attendence nor that our prizes brought around masses of players because it was nothing spectacular. Why do we get very positive feedback from the players? Well I think that this can be contributed to the fact our event did in deed have all the things a good event should have, I've said them before and you can find them in my post in the advanced topic, I hate repeating my self so look at that post if you want to know.

As for the whole article that started all these discussions about proxies (Insider trading: Are proxies hurting vintage by Ben Bleiweis) have you people seen what Ben does for a living ?

I'll qoute something from SCG.com

Ben is one of the foremost Magic: The Gathering financial experts in the world. His accomplishments over his 15+ year involvement with Magic include two tenures as a weekly columnist for Wizards of the Coast, global travel as both a Pro Tour player and reporter, and his position as the General Manager of Inventory & Acquisitions for StarCityGames.com.

no its not a joke look: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/archive.php?Article=Ben%20Bleiweiss

Ok, see the part I made bold ?! Isn't it kinda this guys JOB to SELL REAL CARDS instead of advocating the use of proxies? He should at least advocate the fact that playing with real cards is way better then playing with proxies. For all you guys with degree's running around on TMD is there not one single Economics major here able to deduce the fact that this guy is never ever ever going to advocate you playing with stuff that can't be bought from the company that feeds his kids, dog, wife, <insert random thing people support> come on guys... sure I don't know Ben as a person, and he maybe honest as shit for all I care but anybody working for a company will say that the products they sell will be the best in the world no matter how shit they really are. PR and Economics 101...

I'm very curious about what adding CE (official reprints of the P9 if you make them vintage tournament legal) will do to the second market when they don't count to your proxy count, if you just allow them as proxies it won't do anything regarding the "reviving of vintage" and if the value of power doesn't drop spectacular I would even be tempted to say "hey well look at this lets do a reprint of those crazy ass cards!"

So whats really wrong with vintage ?

if you REALLY want to know what's wrong with Vintage the following qoute says it all for me:

Heh.  Obviously there are reasons not to own power.  Not liking the format is a good one.    But we can't deny the effect of proxies.

If it weren't for the vintage champs I would have sold my power years ago.

Over here in Europe we have more high profile tournaments that actually are sanctioned and we have a good number of non-sanctionend events leading up to those putting moxen or other stuff on the line which people win and hold on to so they can play the bigger events (I also stated this in my other post). This creates a circle of power being available and needed to play in the "bigger" events and creates a "scene" in which winning and owning power actually matters.

To wrap things up

To wrap things up I just want to adress everybody reading this, I was once a player with no vintage events to go to because vintage was all but dead in my country... with some work (Searching for a reasonably payable venue, talking to dealers to sponsor prizes, looking for a date to host my events)  we put vintage back on the map, we're hosting 50+ people events within a year of us starting this project up... stop talking about "there are no events so I can't play" get up and do it yourself, It's not THAT much work... really... sure it takes you maybe a evening or 2 maybe a afternoon to set things up and you need to be present during the day of the event but if you get your affairs straight thats basically the magic of being a TO.

You can do something about your situation or you can talk about it, I chose to do something about it and I haven't regretted any second I put into this effort because now I have very great events to play in and owning power actually makes sense again...

P.S.
@Steve,
Not to attack or flame you but making this "content" premium is something I think is very wrong, there are numerous ways for one to express themselves and one is the advanced vintage forum which I think is a great thing people are trying to do for TMD, there are lots of discussions in the vintage open forum, and even the advanced forum regarding this topic which you could have used to give your views and last time I checked you where a full member and should be able to create a thread yourself in the advanced forum. I understand the fact that you need to write articles for SCG and that you get paid for writing etc. But this is just something that should be "free" from the start imo because this is much more closer to the community then anything else you or anybody could write about.

P.P.S.
Since the spellchecker seems to be broke I apolagize for any spelling errors I made, English is not my native languages and some may have slipped trough.

[Purple Hat]

.  I guarantee if you put up 5k you would get a lot more players with 15 proxies then 5 or 0.   

Of course.   For any given event, more proxies rather than less will tend to increase attendance.   That's a given. 

so...if for any given event more proxies = more attendance how can you claim that for all events more proxies decreases attendence?

Well, that's what the article is about

The distinction I draw is between short-term v. long-term.   The requirements for growth of Vintage in both time frames is different, even though there are areas overlap. 

This principle of the distinction between the requirements for growth in the short term and long run are well understood in business, finance, agriculture, and many other settings.

Steve,
I understand the idea of sacrificing short-term goals for long term benefits, but you're basically saying people who currently fail to enter with artificially lowered barriers to entry will somehow enter and stay long term if you increase the barriers to entry.

It is frustrating though that we can't seem to have a discussion about any of these topics in which you are involved without the rest of us all paying you for your insights.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Marske, good post.  A couple of questions:  For the European tournaments, like your "average" 61-person Mox event, what kind of distances are the players traveling?  What kind of time and money are the the farthest-away players putting into that travel?

[Marske]

@Lochinvar81,
The people travel up to 2/3 hours by car, (Lile and Paris France) for the events I've held... and sure you can say we have better roads, public transport or anything but if there aren't people in a 2/3 hour drive radius of you playing Vintage you should think about getting some FNM, Legacy guys into playing (something I've also done at my local shop). Every place that has Magic players can be a potential vintage group, think about the friend that got you into Vintage. Hearing players talk about how fun vintage is and seeing what kind's of stuff you can actually do can get people to at least give it a try and maybe enter the format.

About the costs: Gas is WAY more expensive overhere then in the US (I'm not going to look up the exact prices but it's true believe me) and traveling 2/3 hours for a event that "merely" gives you your money back IF you win the mox clearly indicates that these players have other reasons to play in these events and I know france has a great maybe even better vintage scene then the Netherlands has.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Three hours by car is about what I've seen here too.  You'll get longer drives for bigger events of course, but a Mox tournament is worth about three hours for the fun factor.

My question was actually pointed more towards the distance people were willing to travel and the significant population centers a tournament's radius will cover.  As I've pointed out before, Europe's population density is much higher than that of the U.S.  In Ohio, for example, it's two hours from Cleveland or Cincinnati to Columbus (I picked this just because that's where Sr. Menendian holds tournaments).  Three hours will get you Toledo, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, and Lexington and Louisville. And four hours will get you all of Detroit.  Unfortunately, of those, only Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and Detroit have Vintage "scenes" (that I know of, or at least, that will travel three hours) that amount to more than a couple of players.

Four hours from Breda gets you Paris and several large population centers in Germany, not to mention all of Belgium and the Netherlands, which are very densely populated in comparison to the U.S.

Without a serious grassroots effort, Vintage just won't happen in these other areas.  One person won't play (and certainly won't start playing) by himself and is less likely to travel even a short distance, so it's nigh impossible for a devote group of vintage players to A) start and B) survive, regardless of the number of proxies.  Plus, the group of potential Vintage players in these areas might get drawn into playing Legacy or EDH or Cube or Type 4 or whatever else is interesting or accessible for them.

This is the actual problem of Vintage in the United States.  The number of proxies is mostly irrelevant if there's little broad interest in the format in the first place.

[rikimaru75]

@Lochinvar81

Seeing how you are from the DC-Virginia area, and I am from the Baltimore region, you're always more than welcome to work something out with Team Baltimore if you want to carpool with us from Baltimore to attend Philly/Jersey/Pittsburgh events with us.  Just PM me.

@marske

I totally agree with you by bringing Vintage to FNM.  That's how Team Baltimore got started, and although we're still 'young' compared to other long-formed groups, it all started with just 2-3 of us playing vintage in between rounds at FNM or staying afterwards or during Top 8 and not making it.  Since then, our group has grown to about 10-12 people interested in vintage in our local area.  To my knowledge, that eventually led TripleAgent to start up a Baltimore vintage scene last July, and since then, we've seen a few others in the Maryland region (as well as people from Philly, Pittsburgh, and beyond) make a visit.

[jamestosetti]

     I was wondering if anyone has talked to Wizards  recently about the state of vitnage? I don't think I've ever heard a productive word about vintage come from wotc's direction. It appears that TO's across the country are in control of type 1 and I would not put much hope in wotc even for a response on these issues. They print cards for vintage obviously but type 1 is like a disowned child when it comes to them doing anything for the format. I'm not complaining I've just come to accept that type 1 will cost you around two grand to even think about looking at another type 1 player and that's just the starter fee. It's no cheap agenda to go to more than 1 type tournament a year. Yea we all could but alot of people would not have money for much else than to see a couple small tournies a year.

    You would think they would do something small at least on the local level for type 1. The other formats have a little hope for the players who play them. They give incentive for you to even think about playing magic. In type 2 you can spend 600 dollars with the hope of making enough money to not have to work for a while. There approach seems similar to the lottery. We have x dollars from these guys so we can spend x dollars on them. We have x dollars from these guys so we can do this for this group. I'm pretty sure that is why nothing is ever going to come from Wizards when it comes to vintage.

[Diakonov]

This is the actual problem of Vintage in the United States.  The number of proxies is mostly irrelevant if there's little broad interest in the format in the first place.

I do agree that the proxy factor is a minor one.  But, it is a certain aspect of tournaments, and I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing the pros and cons different numbers of proxies.  Should we assume that if we agree on an "optimal number," it's going to solve all of our problems?  Certainly not.  Again, I didn't read the article so I don't know if that's what Steven was saying, but hopefully it is realized by everybody that there are bigger factors at work.  It doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't address the less important ones.

Many of those larger factors we simply don't have any control over.  As has been said a million times by others, some people grow up and start a family and decide that they are done with Magic, and there is very little we can do about that.

Marske, I don't know if you would be able to answer this, but in addition to population density I think it would be worth examining the ratio of how often tournaments are held compared to the number in attendance.  It makes logical sense to me that if your respective area holds tournaments more frequently, you're going to see smaller numbers in attendance.  Using myself as an example: I live in central Massachusetts, and when I look at the TMD calendar I see a power tournament within a 2 hour driving distance happening practically every weekend.  If I miss one, no big deal; another one is coming up in like a week.  I'm sure that this is the mentality of many players around here, which is why we see turnouts between 20 and 30.  If we only had one every couple of months, I think more people would be willing to save the date.  Cost is another factor.  A lot of people simply can't afford to spend $25 every week for tournaments, even if they could find the time.

I guess I'm just trying to ascertain the actual sizes of the player bases for our respective regions.  Perhaps the Boston area has just as many active players as the Netherlands, only they're being spread out among many tournaments.

It would actually be a neat study to register the number of "active" players around different parts of the globe.  Probably an impossible undertaking, but I think it would be a safe bet that most serious American Vintage players visit this site.

[Nehptis]

I think the format sucks right now.  I've been more successful since brainstorm was restricted then i ever have been, but I would give up the power I've won to play in the gush metagame again.  I'm considering quiting vintage, and I could easily get a set of power together if I wanted to.  It's just really really dull right now.

This hits the nail on the head for me.  I think the broader discussion around Vintage sustainability needs to consider all dimensions.  The challenge is that unlike the proxy dimension, we have little to no control around a metagame that is being held hostage by some poor Restriction and Errata changes by the DCI.

Assuming that you can afford an event's entry fee and we ignore the opportunity costs of doing something else with your time instead of attending an event, then my point is that Proxy vs. No Proxy is one area that affects a players judgement to attend an event or not.  Another is availability and accessibility of events.  But, a third is the enjoyment factor.  Which can be influenced by a dull metagame and/or poorly run events.

[Marske]

Marske, I don't know if you would be able to answer this, but in addition to population density I think it would be worth examining the ratio of how often tournaments are held compared to the number in attendance.  It makes logical sense to me that if your respective area holds tournaments more frequently, you're going to see smaller numbers in attendance.

Well to be honest we don't have weekly tournaments which could be a factor I'm not sure, my events are every other month so we have a tournament within every 2 month's, and I'm seeing other people hosting events as well which fit in between dates.

It seems to me that some places in the US have a abundance in events (might want to trim down the amount of events to get more players into them) and other places have a complete lack of events. Basically what this comes down to is poor communication between TO's, as a TO myself I talk to almost all the other people doing events in the Netherlands and Belgium and we try to plan events so that they don't overlap or follow up to quickly. For example I was planning my next event to be on the 7th of June but because another person already booked a venue and wanted to host a Vintage event that day I skip this date and plan my event on the 14th. Now sure this is a week between 2 events but the other event is a much smaller event aimed at getting 30 something players from a local group together. All I'm trying to say with this example is that TO's should work together on this, having vintage every week while fun for some isn't something you should be expecting 40+ people to attend every week. We're all busy people myself included, and I think a monthly / 2 monthly event setup works nice for "bigger" events and you can still do stuff like Scholars to cater to the weekly vintage crowd.

[forests failed you]

I think that making CE and IE cards legal is a terrible idea.  Particularly, because they are marked.  At a PT or a GP people have gotten called for marked cards simply for playing with Alpha edition cards in their decks.  CE cards are far and away more marked than Alpha cards.  From the perspective of a player I would much rather have proxies around than random CE cards legal for play, simply because a significant percentage of Magic players are filthy cheaters; and the last thing I want a cheater to do is be playing with 4 cards that have squre edges: Acall, Twalk, Black Lotus, and Mox Sapphire.  I'm sure that nobody will ever abuse that...

Secondly, I am sure that the fact that the economy in the US is so poor is directly respnsible for the fact that Vintage is less popular.  It is by far the most expensive format to play, even with proxies.  When money is tight the first and easiest thing to sell off is a piece of power.  I know that Michigan has been hit by hard times pretty much as bad or worse than anywhere else in the States, and it isn't surprising that almost all of the guys who used to play Vintage have all had to sell their Vintage cards.  Most haven't quit playing the game, but have moved on to play other formats that don't requrie them to own lots of really expensive cards. 

I'm not saying that other formats are not expensive too, just that Vintage decks tend to have a lot of really expensive cards in them.

I think that keeping proxies around is probably the way to go, as it at least allows people to try it out and play. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

One thing that may hurt the popularity of Vintage is that Vintage tournaments aren't available in many states.  If you look at the tournament reports forum you will see that only 15-20 states run Vintage at ALL, and in some of those there's only one tournament every few months, in one corner of the state.  I find it amusing that we're worrying about proxies (and suggesting the use of doubly marked cards (backs AND corners) but not mentioning the fact that most US states have no Vintage tournaments advertised on TMD.  Now, there may be tournaments going on somewhere, but I doubt there are any serious Vintage tournaments in the US that are totally off the radar.

[Diakonov]

All I'm trying to say with this example is that TO's should work together on this, having vintage every week while fun for some isn't something you should be expecting 40+ people to attend every week. We're all busy people myself included, and I think a monthly / 2 monthly event setup works nice for "bigger" events and you can still do stuff like Scholars to cater to the weekly vintage crowd.

I think this is a pretty relevant point, at least for our area.  I'd much rather have more frequent $10 tournaments for something smaller and then space the power tournaments a little bit further apart.  I could pretty much guarantee that this would lead to higher numbers at those tournaments, and while it probably doesn't matter much to the attendees, it does look a lot better on paper and would be better for the format objectively.

[Zieby]

I Just gonna say what my Head is thinking and how I became a TO of the Dutch Vintage Tournaments.

I live in The Netherlands and around the summer of 2007 I wanted to play Vintage, because thats the format I love.
I looked on the internet but could not find a Vintage Tournament within a 3,5 Hour drive (This means The Netherlands, Belgium, North of France and the West of Germany) This Covers about 50 Milion People.
Step 1: I asked if a friend was interested in Judging a Tournament if I would organize one. He agreed.
Step 2: I asked a vendor (Rudy Meijer) if he could sponser the tournament so we would be able to garantee prizes, this was verry important for me. I went to a couple of tournaments where they down scaled the prizes because the attendence was lower then expected. If a player get in the Top 4 he must be able to have prices that exceeds the cost of going to the tournament (Within reasson).
Step 3: I looked for a place where we could host the tournament.
Step 4: Make it puplic on all the boards and to all the people you know and make sure you are allot on those boards to inform the people about the lattest status of the pre-registration and alike.

Durring the tournament.
Talk to all the players and get to know them, this way you get information on what they like and what they expect.

After the Tournament
Step 5: Make sure you post all relevant information after the tournament (Top 8 decklists and that kind of stuf)
Step 6: Organize a new tournament within a good time span that most people will appriciate (because I just bought a house and was renovcating the place I could not organize a seccond tournament within 2 month's then I talked with Marske and he was willing to put some time and effort in it as well. This way we had the consistence for the tournament settled and with the third and all the tournaments after that, we worked together so the time and effort that it costs was even less).

What I want to display with the above is:
If nobody in the area invest some time, there will not be any Vintage in that area. You must talk to all the players you know who could possibly be interested in playing in that tournament. At each of out tournaments their are a lot of people who just started playing again and/or are for the first at a Vintage tournament. It's all about communication and PR and not only through the net but more important, in person.

About Proxies and hurting Vintage:
I will tell you this. Without Proxies we could not become as Big as we are today, because more then 50% of the players doesn't have a full set of Power available. This doesn't mean that I do not see anything in what Steve suggested.

I have maybe annother way how we can put Vintage back on the Map.

* WotC sell's blank cards with the logo on the back of the card as normal. It even should have a symbol on the card that will mark it is a blank card.
* WotC needs to allow 5 or 10 Proxies in Vintage Sanctioned Tournaments. I Believe 5 is better but I will  WotC make that dissicion on their own.
* TO's needs to accept only the Originel proxie cards WotC provides if they wnat to Sanction there Tournament.

This way WotC makes money from proxies.
Is it possible to even have a GP or Pro-Tour for Vintage (The format is more excesable).
It doesn't hurt the collector's or the seccondary marked.
People will be more interested in Vintage because it will provide them points in the overall and eternal rankings.

Just my 2 cents

Greetz Zieby

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Maybe it is just me but I don't see a problem with hosting more tournaments with smaller payouts and turnouts especially if you start getting regulars. A 32 person $15 tournament is still enough to easily hand out a $200, $100, $50, $50, free entry, free entry, free entry, free entry top-8 prize structure, or a Mox to first place, etc. I would gladly play in a Vintage tournament every week. This would make the format significantly more accessable and raise awareness more than a once a year $30 buy-in 200-man tournament.

Maybe the reason TOs don't like starting up Vintage scenes in the first place is because they think unless they can garuntee a full set of P9 and 80+ people nobody will bother showing up. I mean the people in this thread are talking about 30 people as being a "small" turnout. In my opinion <20 is small, 20-40 is medium and 40+ is large. It seems like people are more interested in "what happens if I get first place" rather than actually just having fun.

This elitist attitude is probably what is scaring away new players and stopping store owners from starting up a Vintage scene. I'm sure people would shell out money for P9 if they had the option to attend 40+ tournaments a year (almost once a week) to try and win back their money. This is probably why the Europeans can afford to do non-proxy events. They host enough tournaments per year in centralized areas that people can just win enough for all the power they need. Going by what I'm reading on European tournaments if a person is willing to put about 3 hours of driving in, (reasonable) they can go to a Vintage tournament bi-weekly.

[grandpoohbah19]

Even if you get a player to buy some power whats going to keep him from selling it? Whether or not you get people to buy power shouldn't be the issue, whether or not you get people to want to play vintage should be. Do you really think a higher barrier for entry (less proxies, more exepensive cards) will force players to begrudgingly spend money they don't want to just to play this format over another one?

It seems to me the focus should be on building a healthy metagame that erases the stigma of $4,000 decks and 1- turn wins, and TO's trying to struggle through and support the format the best they can.

Why not get rid of all of this by banning the power 9? Then we don't need proxies, we don't have to worry about the stigma of $4,000 decks and turn one kills, the barrier to entry would be a lot less and we could have consistancy among TO's with everyone having zero proxy events. It seems to me like this would be a much better solution to the problems of vintage rather than slowly weeding out the players who cant or wont buy power. This will still ask players to buy some expensive cards, but the amount they need to spend to be competive shrinks dramatically and TO's can hold more events with cheaper entry by offering things such as drain, time vault, or workshop as prizes rather than having to get a Mox for anyone to care.

[aosquirrels]

Why not get rid of all of this by banning the power 9? Then we don't need proxies, we don't have to worry about the stigma of $4,000 decks and turn one kills, the barrier to entry would be a lot less and we could have consistancy among TO's with everyone having zero proxy events.

I think that is (for the most part) called Legacy.

[Diakonov]

squirrels, you beat me to the punch.

Not that he doesn't have a point.  Legacy used to be kind of a silly format back in the day, and now it's more popular than Vintage.  That's probably one of the big reasons why.

The Power 9 define Vintage, so playing without them is not playing the format that we all know and love.

[grandpoohbah19]

squirrels, you beat me to the punch.

Not that he doesn't have a point.  Legacy used to be kind of a silly format back in the day, and now it's more popular than Vintage.  That's probably one of the big reasons why.

The Power 9 define Vintage, so playing without them is not playing the format that we all know and love.

Banning the power nine would not give you type 1.5, it wouldnt even be type 1.25. It would still allow you to do broken stuff (will, vault+key) and play with nearly all the cards you want, it would just remove a significant amount of the price barrier and remove 6 auto-includes from decklists.

If the reason people aren't playing vintage is because they can't afford or don't want to buy power, slowly forcing them to either buy it or play a different format isn't the response we need to grow the player base; removing the option to play power would solve our problem much quicker and would still allow us to use a large list of broken cards that legacy wont let us play.

EDIT: The format changes. It's something we all have to deal with. For some not playing without 4 3sphere wasn't play the format the knew and loved. Same is true with a variety of restrictions but ultimately they were decisions that were made to try and improve the health of the format; it'd be the same thing with banning the power nine.

[Yare]

Vintage without the power nine is not Vintage in any way, shape, or form. Period.

There really is just not much more to say. Legacy, by its very nature, seeks to keep the super broken and the super expensive out of the format. Sure, you could make some other format that was like Vintage where you banned power nine, but I think it would just be a watered down Vintage or powered up Legacy.

Regarding, "the format changing," Vintage, by definition, doesn't change by removing cards from the cardpool. Again, this is a fundamental and immutable aspect of the format. There is a big, big, big difference between a restriction and a banning.

[Stormanimagus]

On the topic of small FNM style tournaments. Anyone want to drop me a PM if they live in NYC and are interested in an FNM vintage scene. I know neutral ground was disbanded but I'd like to see if there's a possibility of starting something from the ground up.

[forests failed you]

If you had the interest Vintage is a format that a store could run a FNM for.  I know in Michigan there was a store called Blue Dragon that a few years ago used to get 25+ for Vintage FNM.  The drawback is that no proxies are alloweded since it is sanctioned.  I played there three or four times and it was a pretty fun event, with plenty of good people.  The problem was that it wasn't very competitive.  I won all three times and kind of felt bad about it.  I was playing my powered Gifts deck against Sligh and White weenie decks with Sol Ring.  There were a few players there who had good decks, but on the whole the field was really bad.  When you ban proxies that is exactly what happens... You get a field full of bad decks, and it really isn't like playing real Vintage.  If I had the choice between auto-winning at FNM against players who were goldfishes with me piloting a Vintage deck, or playing draft or Standard against players who had a clue and maybe not winning--I would choose the later everytime.  I am working on my master's thesis at the moment and don't have a ton of time to spend playing Magic, so I'd rather play a game that is rewading because it is a challange than is a victory without any thought. 

Now, if somebody would hold a FNM unsanctioned...  Or simply had a weekly proxy Vintage event--that would be awesome.  I know that Pandemonium in Livionia used to have weekly Vintage and it was awesome.  We used to get 25+ on a Monday night to play Type I.   I really miss that event actually, as it was probably the most fun playing Magic I've ever had.  Currently, the community is very sparse and very spread out, so anything that any local scene can do to get people to show up and play is probably a good gesture toward reviving Vintage.  If Vintage is strong at the local level, than it obviously will help at the larger levels.  Since, if you have a group of 8-10 every week playing, it is very likely that those people will be more willing together to a bigger event.  The Cbus, Kzoo, and Wisconsion guys are a good example of this in practice. 

I am in Michigan and there is literally nobody to play with within an hour driving distance.  As a result I can't really play, and if I want to attend an event I have to drive at least an hour by myself to get there.  If I could get people to come out and play type I, I would play even if it were only 4-5 guys.  The problem is getting people motivated and commited to playing once a week. 

[urweak]

All I'm trying to say with this example is that TO's should work together on this, having vintage every week while fun for some isn't something you should be expecting 40+ people to attend every week. We're all busy people myself included, and I think a monthly / 2 monthly event setup works nice for "bigger" events and you can still do stuff like Scholars to cater to the weekly vintage crowd.

I think this is a pretty relevant point, at least for our area.  I'd much rather have more frequent $10 tournaments for something smaller and then space the power tournaments a little bit further apart.  I could pretty much guarantee that this would lead to higher numbers at those tournaments, and while it probably doesn't matter much to the attendees, it does look a lot better on paper and would be better for the format objectively.

Yes, this is what FNM was for me years ago (proably 98-99). The local  shop would have vintage FNM and it was like $5 and the winner got 3-4 boosters then the top 4 got a booster or two. And usally beyond that everyone got some type of random rare or something. It was a lot of fun and I wish I could find something like that. It would be a lot more casual, but I think it would turn people on to the format.

So I really think places should run more T1 on a smaller scale. I mean how many T2 events do card shops have that are $20-$30 and give away a few hundred dollars in prizes. Maybe some of the TO's on here could suggest this to their respective shops. I know for one that I would go.