[Discussion] Goblins

[Delha]

In a nutshell, I don't want to add even more vulnerability to Chalice @ 1.  Also, mainphase mana isn't easy to come by, particularly AFTER they've established their board enough to have a reason to replicate.  Energy Flux comes down before they establish a lock and prevents it from ever happening.

Hurkyl's Recall is a touch contentious and I'd certainly entertain more Vandals/Sprees/Viashino Heretics/etc instead.

Chalice @ 1 only stops the original cast, not the copies. At R+R, it kills Chalice for exactly the same CMC as Energy Flux, but hits now rather than their upkeep, and doesn't give them the option of paying to keep it around. It could also be notable that it lets you nuke stuff on their EOT, then drop threats in the window before they cast anything else.

[DubDub]

In a nutshell, I don't want to add even more vulnerability to Chalice @ 1.  Also, mainphase mana isn't easy to come by, particularly AFTER they've established their board enough to have a reason to replicate.  Energy Flux comes down before they establish a lock and prevents it from ever happening.

Hurkyl's Recall is a touch contentious and I'd certainly entertain more Vandals/Sprees/Viashino Heretics/etc instead.

Chalice @ 1 only stops the original cast, not the copies. At R+R, it kills Chalice for exactly the same CMC as Energy Flux, but hits now rather than their upkeep, and doesn't give them the option of paying to keep it around. It could also be notable that it lets you nuke stuff on their EOT, then drop threats in the window before they cast anything else.

Shattering Spree is unfortunately not an instant, but you're right that it dodges Chalice at 1.  I would think that Ancient Grudge would also be preferable to Energy Flux in Goblins.

[Delha]

Shattering Spree is unfortunately not an instant, but you're right that it dodges Chalice at 1.  I would think that Ancient Grudge would also be preferable to Energy Flux in Goblins.

Jeebus, I must be losing it. I've made more mistakes in remembering cards this past week than probably the last six months preceding. Sorry bout that.

[Stormanimagus]

I actually think Goblins is a fascinating possibility for the Shop-infested Metagame we have right now in the NYC/Philly Area but I think most of these lists are not very streamlined or optimized. I'm not entirely sure how to best solve the Chalice @1 problem without running terrible cards like Energy Flux or Hurkyl's Recall (both those cards are TERRIBLE in Goblins and no one try to argue otherwise because I guarantee you I can prove you wrong. Splashing blue in a deck like this is a mistake, and, EVEN if you do you do not want to be running cards like that. If you want answers like that run combo where you can follow them up with "oops I win" types of plays).

I think sticking to B/R for colors is fine, but I just need to find something that gets around Chalice @1. Sadly, the best option may be a Green Splash for Ancient Grudge as that has great applications against Shops AND Tezz. The other clunky option is, as always, Ingot Chewer, but I'd like to see if there's something more powerful/synergistic first. Here's the list I'd run btw, barring changed to accommodate for Chalice:

Goblins!

Land (18):
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (7):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
3 Null Rod

Creatures (27):
3 Goblin Vandal
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Earwig Squad
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Seige-Gang Commander

Sorceries (7):
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Warren Weirding

Instants (1):
1 Demonic Consultation

SB
4 Shattering Spree
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Planar Void
4 Goblin Bombardment

[Stormanimagus]

In a nutshell, I don't want to add even more vulnerability to Chalice @ 1.  Also, mainphase mana isn't easy to come by, particularly AFTER they've established their board enough to have a reason to replicate.  Energy Flux comes down before they establish a lock and prevents it from ever happening.

Hurkyl's Recall is a touch contentious and I'd certainly entertain more Vandals/Sprees/Viashino Heretics/etc instead.

Chalice @ 1 only stops the original cast, not the copies. At R+R, it kills Chalice for exactly the same CMC as Energy Flux, but hits now rather than their upkeep, and doesn't give them the option of paying to keep it around. It could also be notable that it lets you nuke stuff on their EOT, then drop threats in the window before they cast anything else.

Really? You still get the copies? Wow, didn't know that.

[H]

Really? You still get the copies? Wow, didn't know that.

Copies are not played they are placed on the stack.  Chalice only triggers upon spells being played (or cast as it is now known again).

[AmbivalentDuck]

The trouble is that for the 1RR that Shattering Spree will cost, you could have done something more relevant.  Let's pretend this card saw print:

R, Enchantment
1RR: Destroy target artifact.  Play this only when you could play a sorcery.

I'd argue that Goblins would not run it, EVEN with the repeating ability because it's outclassed by Vandal whose creature type is actually very relevant.

As far as Energy Flux, every time I've dropped it at a tournament I've won.  Frankly, I'd love to be proved wrong on this front: better sideboard choices make for a better deck.

@blue: Ancestral and Time Walk are strong cards.  Like, way better here than in Noble Fish.  You happily splash for them, even as the only two blue cards you run, since they fix two of your biggest problems: 1) getting enough turns to make your land drops for Warchief.  2) Running out of gas in the late game.  It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, but Ancestral easily outclasses Ringleader.

Pulverize, Tinkerer, Tin-Street, Ancient Grudge, and Engineered Explosives can all nail Chalice @ 1.  Looking at Storm's proposed list, I'll add my usual bit about Warchief being too little, too late.  I also think that Cabal Therapy isn't vintage viable simply because control decks look too much like the restricted list to take aim at any single spell.  I'm not sure if he'd object to replacing them with Thoughtseize, but that seems to be the route legacy players take.

The other comment on the maindeck I'm going to make is that I think artifact acceleration is better than Warchief acceleration because you already hose the primary Null Rod deck and having your turn 3 accelerant Drained is just sad.  By contrast, you can drop moxen turn 1 to add permanents AND MANA against Stax and its Lodestone Golems.

On the sideboard...7 cards is WAY too much for the Ichy matchup.  Bring some Fanatics main: Bob is back in the "best" Tez builds anyways.

[chalywong]

Storm, love the deck but I do have some questions/comments.  I think mana crypt might be a little too greedy in the acceleration department.  With null rod and 4 waste/1 strip there will be many times where 1. you take continuous dmg from it because of null rod 2. wish it were a colored source because this deck loves colored mana.  I think if you are going to run an accellerant in that slot something like lotus petal might be stronger to allow multiple turn 1 colored spells(turn1 thoughtseize > lackey is pretty sick).  What matchups is goblin sharpshooter used in?  I also slightly disagree with your board plan.  It seems very one dimensional but I understand the want of 4's to supplement the consultation in the main.  All in all though I think its a great list and look forward to more conversations about the archetype in the future. (btw I think played you at the vintage event on 7/31 in seldon, i was the dude playing fish in that ridiculously long game 2.)

[policehq]

Why hasn't anyone asked why mainphase R is harder to come by than mainphase U2 in a Goblins deck against an opponent using Wastes?

[Stormanimagus]

Why hasn't anyone asked why mainphase R is harder to come by than mainphase U2 in a Goblins deck against an opponent using Wastes?

That's a good question. I thought it was obvious but some people clearly can't read cards.

Sorry AmbivalentDuck. Not to sound like a jerk, but I've played Energy Flux vs. MUD in a deck that could better support it (i.e Noble Fish) and EVEN THERE it is a poor answer as they often just pay for the stuff they need with Ancient Tombs or City of Traitors. Flux has more use against Mana-Hungry 5-C Stax lists, but, sadly, no one plays those anymore. I think Shattering Spree is an extremely versatile card and really solid when coupled with Vandal. I wouldn't change either of those 2 cards. And I really think 7 Dredge hate is warranted as you do not want them to overrun you with Zombies as you have exactly 0 ways to "just win now."

@Chalywong -- That's cool. I enjoyed that match dude. Nice use of the White Leyline btw. I really like that card. As for the Sharpshooter he's supposed to be in there for Confidants, but I kinda doubt his usefulness now. He might be getting the axe for Null Rod #4.

As to the Crypt Question. The reason I like Crypt is because it allows the Goblins player to pay for Sphere effects and "bust through" with goblins that may now cost R3 or even RR3. It just helps you get there vs. MUD. I'd even consider running Sol Ring to be honest. I think it is far more useful to have Crypt than Petal in this sort of Meta. Petal is a dangerous card in a deck like this and I really don't think it belongs. You don't want anything but a super powerful first turn if you are going to drop your hand and Petal doesn't really enable that sort of turn like it does for TPS.

[AmbivalentDuck]

And I really think 7 Dredge hate is warranted as you do not want them to overrun you with Zombies as you have exactly 0 ways to "just win now."

Then run Mogg Fanatic and/or Skirk Prospector.  They *cannot* overrun you with Zombies through either of those turn 1 drops.  If only because your deck is ridiculously mana hungry, consider Fanatic as a one-mana answer to Confidant that slows down Dredge.

@Sharpshooter:
I've found Sharpshooter to primarily be a tool to combat Dredge and Fish.  He's too little too late against Confidant.  I'd strongly consider testing a Fanatic in the slot first if you decide to cut it because they're functionally similar and Fanatic has "haste."  Remember, with a Sharpshooter on the board Dredge cannot dump a creature into play during its upkeep because you'll always have priority to wipe their board during their draw phase (killing one of your dorks with all of the Bridge triggers stacked) before they can Dread Return.  

@Energy Flux
I'm probably relying too much on my experience with Stax and ignoring the real differences between Stax and MUD.  I'll retest the matchup with Sprees.

The biggest question I have about your build is why 1x Earwig Squad got cut?  The matches where he's "only" a 5/3 for 2B tend to be the ones where you need a big butt the most.  The only thing I can think of is that switching from Moxen to Rods means an extra turn for your opponent to find countermagic/get a wincon in hand.  This isn't Noble Fish where you have countermagic to defend a Rod.  Just because it's in play doesn't mean that they won't be able to answer or play around it.

Another way to think about Null Rod vs moxen: would you rather drop a Rod or a Bitter Ordeal for 2-3 on turn 2 if there's a Polluted Delta on the table across from you?

[sassfactor4]

What is the purpose of Gempalm polluter in the list?  Same as sharpshooter?   Cycle to stall oath \ kill bridge to below?

[Stormanimagus]

What is the purpose of Gempalm polluter in the list?  Same as sharpshooter?   Cycle to stall oath \ kill bridge to below?

You mean Incinerator? LOL. He is there to be a 1R costing solution to Lodestone Golem when you have 3 Goblins in play (not hard when so many of them cost 1 Mana to play). You ramp to 3 Goblins and then use this guy to kill Lodestones. Since cycling is not affected by Spheres I'd say he's a solid solution to the 5/3.

-Storm

[sassfactor4]

yes incinerator heh.

Thanks that makes sense.   The cycle cost is never changed by any of the sphere\chalice effects I get, but having 3 goblins in play before lodestone has already crippled you seems suspect, are you often seeing a turnaround from lodestone in play to active incinerator?

[policehq]

yes incinerator heh.

Thanks that makes sense.   The cycle cost is never changed by any of the sphere\chalice effects I get, but having 3 goblins in play before lodestone has already crippled you seems suspect, are you often seeing a turnaround from lodestone in play to active incinerator?

There are also situations like combat damage + Incinerator, and there are other creatures to kill, too.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The uncounterable ability to kill Platz is nice too.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Why hasn't anyone asked why mainphase R is harder to come by than mainphase U2 in a Goblins deck against an opponent using Wastes?

That's a good question. I thought it was obvious but some people clearly can't read cards.

I answered this above, so I'd originally ignored it.  The answer is simple: I can drop Flux turn 2 without any targets.  It's not rare to face a Crucible or Smokestack turn 2; neither of which stops you from dropping Flux and neither of which wants to be against an opposing Flux.  Shattering Spree is better once their board is developed meaning the main phase mana is harder to come by.  As a late game topdeck, I'll concede that Spree is better.

[DubDub]

Why hasn't anyone asked why mainphase R is harder to come by than mainphase U2 in a Goblins deck against an opponent using Wastes?

That's a good question. I thought it was obvious but some people clearly can't read cards.

I answered this above, so I'd originally ignored it.  The answer is simple: I can drop Flux turn 2 without any targets.  It's not rare to face a Crucible or Smokestack turn 2; neither of which stops you from dropping Flux and neither of which wants to be against an opposing Flux.  Shattering Spree is better once their board is developed meaning the main phase mana is harder to come by.  As a late game topdeck, I'll concede that Spree is better.

But if there aren't any targets, aren't you better off dropping Goblins?  Advancing your gameplan?  Or wouldn't some in-color anti-Stax card be better (I'm thinking of Viashino Heretic, Goblin Welder, or Magus of the Moon as possibilities here).

[AmbivalentDuck]

There's some merit to Blood Moon.  The problem with bringing in creatures is that they die to cards that everyone already knows to bring in against you.  Like I said, I'm not attached to Energy Flux.  I just had a lot of success using it.  It may no longer be anywhere near optimal, or even appropriate.

As far as Viashino Heretic specifically, if it gets errata to be a rogue (and it should), it could easily find a spot main.

[Delha]

If you're looking at T2 Crucible or Smoky, Spree lets you kill it for R instead of 1U, meaning you can drop a threat as well.

Also, there's the issue that Field gives them the final decision. The shop pilot is presumably going to always sacrifice whatever they need the least. With Spree, you will presumably always nuke the thing that they need the most.

Edit: Grammar fail. Jeebus, I need to either stick with my original phrasing, or proof my posts more. Half implemented rewrites FTL.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Also, there's the issue that Field gives them a say in what they get the final decision. The shop pilot is presumably going to go always go sacrifice whatever they need the least. With Spree, you will presumably always nuke the thing that they need the most.

QFT

[refellos]

what if the stax player jedi mind tricked you into targeting the things he wanted you to think were the valuable pieces? what now

[AmbivalentDuck]

what if the stax player jedi mind tricked you into targeting the things he wanted you to think were the valuable pieces? what now

Then you should play Ichorid.

[Delha]

what if the stax player jedi mind tricked you into targeting the things he wanted you to think were the valuable pieces? what now

Then you should play Pokemon.

Fixed.

[refellos]

don't hate on pokemon. haymaker was an awesome deck. lol

[JR]

As far as Viashino Heretic specifically, if it gets errata to be a rogue (and it should), it could easily find a spot main.

Ok, I'll bite. Why? I mean, should we errata it to an Island goblin Viashino Rogue while we are at it? Maybe throw in construct, just so we are covering all the bases?

Some of your ideas confuse me.

JR.

[AmbivalentDuck]

This is the wrong place for the discussion, but look up the definition of heretic.  Also, note that the remaining two Heretics in the game are a cleric and a rogue.  Since the word heretic means cleric/rogue/both, adding the rogue and/or cleric creature type to a card named Viashino Heretic makes sense.

[JR]

Well, according to Oxford English, Heretic comes from the Greek "to choose", and did not have any application until it was used as a description of someone who did not believe in the Dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

By your logic, we should errata Viashino Heretic so that he is a Jew, as well.

[policehq]

Never mind that; the thing keeping you from playing a R2 1/3 artifact hoser in an aggressive Goblin-based creature deck is that he's not a Rogue? I get there's some synergy there, but what you seem to be suggesting is that the lack of ability to prowl in a deck that should be full of Goblins anyway is what holds you back. I think there are PLENTY of reasons that Viashino Heretic SHOULDN'T fit here.

There are plenty of red cards that destroy artifacts better.
There are plenty of Goblins you can include that allow you to prowl.
There are 1cc Goblins that destroy artifacts or let you prowl sooner.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It's a moot point in any case, Stax is far from a problem matchup for goblins.   We wouldn't maindeck additional hate unless something drastic changed/got printed.