Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future

[meadbert]

Tolarian Winds costs 2 which makes it a now go in Serum Powder Dredge.  Your first land drop should be Bazaar so Winds does not hit till turn 3.

It seems good in Legacy Dredge though.

[sorcutt]

sorry, didn't see meatbert's post

[cruzron]

hi guys, n00b here.

Just wondering how often you mull to oblivion in mana dredge? Do you cut your losses when you're already at 3-4 cards and stop?

[Neonico]

The pourcentage to have a bazaar by mulliganing/Serum powdering has been calculated to around 94%.
That means that on a 6 roundzs tournament, you should mull to oblivion only 1 game per tournament.

[cruzron]

Yes but what I meant was if you're down to three cards (for the sake of discussion let's say... U.Paradise, GGT and Moeba), do you still mull to two, or just keep for the sake of keeping? Assuming its game 1.

[Gambit]

Yes but what I meant was if you're down to three cards (for the sake of discussion let's say... U.Paradise, GGT and Moeba), do you still mull to two, or just keep for the sake of keeping? Assuming its game 1.

Go for it. You aren't winning any game 1's with that hand. On second thought, it really depends on the list. If you are running 4x careful study and some number of breakthroughs then I may keep. But you REALLY want to hit bazaar game 1

[cruzron]

Haha thanks. I'll go do that. 

[keys]

I'm just getting into this deck (convert from Legacy) and I'm wondering why Unmask isn't as popular as other maindeck hate like Leyline, Chalice, or Claim?  You can use it as a discard engine in a pinch if your Bazaar gets wasted or you mull too much.

With most decks running 8 or fewer rainbow lands, I don't see how it's possible to play Claim consistently, and Leyline and Chalice are a little bit random.

Also, what's the verdict on Fatestitcher: is it win-more or worth the card space?

Dread Return targets: FKZ, Iona, Sun Titan, and Terastodon... which are best?

[Womba]

I'm just getting into this deck (convert from Legacy) and I'm wondering why Unmask isn't as popular as other maindeck hate like Leyline, Chalice, or Claim?  You can use it as a discard engine in a pinch if your Bazaar gets wasted or you mull too much.

I think a lot of this is player's preference. In a lot of different games I feel either package is fine. I feel there are going to be a lot more games you can steal with a MD Leyline, Chalice, and Claim package MD then with Unmask.

With most decks running 8 or fewer rainbow lands, I don't see how it's possible to play Claim consistently, and Leyline and Chalice are a little bit random.

A lot of the reasoning behind running these cards MD is not to actually play them, but to improve your game two and three percentages as well as allowing you to free up SB space. I would say chalice is usually the weakest MD but having these cards MD when your win percentage for game 1 is already well over 80% with pretty much any build just allows for more flexibility and options for your SB slots.

Also, what's the verdict on Fatestitcher: is it win-more or worth the card space?

I would say win-more here and way to dependent on them not having an answer to bazaar. Although with a lot of SB hate moving away from attacking bazaar directly I would be inclined to explore this option a little more again. The main thing with this card though is that usually it is the first card you are SBing out because there are only so many cards you can bring out games 2 and 3 as well as put in.

Dread Return targets: FKZ, Iona, Sun Titan, and Terastodon... which are best?

Outside of FKZ I don't think there is one "Best" target really.

I would say AT LEAST one FKZ is an auto include for the oops I win. Iona I would say is a metagame call in my experience and opinion. If you expect a lot of storm based decks I would put in Iona in the deck. As for the other two, in testing I was never really impressed with either of them. I always found either Angel of Despair or Woodfall Primus better IMO. I am slowly coming back to Angel because it seems there are more and more creatures I want to be killing as well as permanents.

[Razvan]

I am still on the fence on anything that says destroy a non-creature. Honestly, Angel of Despair is there even though it's not flashy, it's boring, it just does the job really really well.

On the *other* hand, Terastodon, while not being able to kill a creature, IS really good, and fun. Not only that, if you have 3 other permanents that you don't need, such as spare lands, mana, chalice, leylines, you could just put 18 power worth of stuff and win next turn. I did that a few times, and I don't think any other card would have helped (such as after an extirpate on bridge, or magus of the moon down)...

[meadbert]

I'm just getting into this deck (convert from Legacy) and I'm wondering why Unmask isn't as popular as other maindeck hate like Leyline, Chalice, or Claim?  You can use it as a discard engine in a pinch if your Bazaar gets wasted or you mull too much.

Using Unmask on your own Dredger is essentially "lose less" in type one.  You will still end up losing the vast majority of the time, but instead of doing nothing you will have done something.
Type 1 decks have such broken wins like Tinker->Robot, Key/Vault, Oath and Yawg-Win that you rarely have much time to mess around.
The main exception would be Mud where you may have time, but recent printings have made many Workshop lists more aggro heavy so even there you do not have as much time as you used to.

With most decks running 8 or fewer rainbow lands, I don't see how it's possible to play Claim consistently, and Leyline and Chalice are a little bit random.

So on average you mulligan to 5.8 cards, one of which is Bazaar so that leaves 4.8 non Bazaar cards.  You get 2 Bazaar draws on turn 1 and then 2 more Bazaar draws on turn 2 as well as your draw step draw.
That is a total of 9.8 Bazaar cards.  It turns out that the probability of finding an 8of in 9.8 cards is very high.

Also, what's the verdict on Fatestitcher: is it win-more or worth the card space?

So I use Fatestitcher a ton (which is not to say it is optimal) so I can comment on this with substantial experience.
Four-of in the main is probably win more.  Basically one activation should win games for you and with 3 in your deck you already have a high probability of finding that first one by turn 2.
Despite that I usually run four, but I am pretty sure four is win more.
Post board I usually board down to two.  Having a Fatestitcher is key to speed up your win once you answer the hate.  Also, frequently your "answer" is in the form of Chain of Vapor which means the
same hate may be on its way down next turn.  In this case Fatestitcher acts almost like a Time Walk since you get the extra Bazaar activation to Dredge into a Cabal Therapy to rip the hate away or to just
Dread Return a fattie so Jailer/Needle/Leyline no longer matter.
Without Fatestitcher you must "go off" with 3 Dredges after Chaining a Leyline.
With Fatestitcher you get 5 Dredges and that is frequently the difference between going off and not going off.
I would not put Fatestitchers in the board, but if you run enough lands in the main then it is very temping to run 2 in the main and keep them post board.

Dread Return targets: FKZ, Iona, Sun Titan, and Terastodon... which are best?

So generally I board out all my Dread Return targets post board and just relay on Grave-Troll.
Therefore, my comments are geared towards preboard.

FKZ has the obvious win now advantage.

Iona is my least favorite right now because it does nothing against Mud, is dealt with by an in play Jace and does not stop Key/Vault.

Sun Titan is wonderful in combo versions with Black Lotus, LED and Fatestitchers.  In more common versions he does not answer hate preboard unless you do something unusual like
try to make room for Serenity in your maindeck.  For that reason in more mainstream lists I consider Sun Titan to be "win more."

Terastodon not answering creatures rarely shows up since I almost never see Platinum Angel or Blazing Archon in main decks these days.
Post board it is more of a problem.

Angel of Despair - I probably would keep post board because it answers hate.  Pitches to Unmask if you run that.

Eternal Witness - Basically Witness can generically get Bazaar to give you landfall + 2 more dredges.
Could get Lotus or LED if you run a more comboish list.
Alternately you can get Nature's Claim or Chain of Vapor to answer a threat post board.
Furthermore post board Witness can be hardcast.  I have not tested Witness in this meta, but it is worth mentioning.

Woodfall Primus - Similar to Terastodon.

Ancestor's Chosen - Terrible against Vault/Key but great against Aggro decks, Tinker->Robot and Tendrils.  If we move to a Shop Aggro/GAT/Tendrils metagame then this becomes more interesting.

Sundering Titan - Messes up opponent's a lot, and then if they answer it, it messes them up more.  Dead against Mud and decks can win with little mana these days.  Less flexible than Primus/Terastodon.

3-4xSharuum + Altar of Dementia - If you want to run Unmasks in the main then a build with potential is something that runs Unmasks and Forces in the main along with 3-4 Sharuum and 2 Altar of Dementia.
Basically if you Dread Return 1 Sharuum with another Sharuum + Bridge in the yard then you get infinite tokens which you can then sack to Altar of Dementia to deck your opponent.
Also Altar is a decent at "dredging" on its own and even hardcastable.  Altar also is a sac outlet.
Basically you should usually win even if you only have one Sharuum at first because you can get out Altar, sack Sharuum to Altar to deck yourself some.
Then sack 2-3 tokens to mill 4-6 more cards.  At this point you might have hit Narcomoeba so sacrifice that to Altar to get 3 more tokens and then mill 6 more.
Anyway, Altar has synergy with most of the deck.
The problem is since you might Serum Powder mulligan 1 Sharuum and pitch another to Force or Unmask you really want 4 to be reliable with combo.  That ends up being a lot of space.
You can also swap an Altar for Possessed Portal to remove maindeck hate, but Altar already doges a lot of random hate like Moat, Ensnaring Bridge and Blazing Archon.

[PltnmNgl]

I want to convert my Legacy deck into a Vintage deck. Here's my list:

3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe

4 Bridge from Below

3 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study

2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

3 Firestorm
4 Ancient Den
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim

What's the best way to convert this into a Vintage deck? I have access to all of the DR targets.

[Daenyth]

Are you playing sanctioned? It's going to make a big difference. There's basically no way for you to play dredge in vintage without Bazaars.

[PltnmNgl]

Are you playing sanctioned? It's going to make a big difference. There's basically no way for you to play dredge in vintage without Bazaars.

Yeah. I plan on playing sanctioned. I will be proxying the Bazaars for now.

Is the Bloodghast engine a definite?

[Daenyth]

I don't have enough experience to answer that, but I'm mostly sure they are.

[Adan]

Is the Bloodghast engine a definite?

Yes. And so you convert this:

I want to convert my Legacy deck into a Vintage deck. Here's my list:

3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe

4 Bridge from Below

3 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study

2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

3 Firestorm
4 Ancient Den
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim

What's the best way to convert this into a Vintage deck? I have access to all of the DR targets.

into this:

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1350&highlight=5#place5

...and start Top8-penetrating every event you participate in (except for big events like Ovino or Annecy or anything with 200+ people. There you need luck).

Credits go to Matt Elias for the "Turtle-Dredge" concept. And never play without Chalice. Won me every game 3 in France. All of them. Seriously.

[cruzron]

Hi Adan!

What do you usually board in/out to retain the Chalices?
Thanks!

[Adan]

Hi Adan!

What do you usually board in/out to retain the Chalices?
Thanks!

This is basically the most difficult thing (but I don't encounter that very much since I usually manage to win g2), but it highly depends on what you see during g2. This might seem trivial, but I would never scoop until your lifetotals really drop to 0. Try to get as much info about your opponents hate before you go down in g2 (that is, IF you really lose). If you see Leylines and Jailers, the opponent should have the hate-config which is not vulnerable to the white Leyline. I found myself boarding out the white Leyline in g3 when I was playing the tournament in Lutzelhouse.

Even if they have stuff like Tormod's, it is obsoleted by your Chalice. And for stuff like Relic of Progenitus or that new thing (Nihil Spellbomb or whatever that was...), you still have Nature's Claim and Chain.

Wrapping up: Dependant on what hate the opponents play, you go down on Darkblasts and Chains (and some random card) to bring back all 4 Chalices in game 3 or you board out the white Leylines if you see that the opponent uses hate that is resistant to it (i.e. Leyline and Jailer).

This way you are always prepared against all kind of hate. Except for gay Wasteland-actions, they are annoying as hell. But here you have Petrified Field and tokens (it really IS surprising how helpless most Vintage decks are to... 2 or 3 Zombies).

And well, all I can say is that Matt's Turtle Dredge build really is the most devastating build I've played so far. Stitcher Dredge is very fast and has got flashy kills, but after I owned 3 people with Chalice0 in g3, I am convinced that Chalice is the card that you should always play over Stitcher.
Every time I dropped Chalice and then Therapy'd my opponent on Turn 2, they revealed me hands that enabled 1st Turn Mind's Desire, 1st Turn Bargain and/or 1st Turn Vault-Key. But thanks to Chalice, I didn't get blown out by some lame 1st-Turn-combo-action and still won that shit.

[Stormanimagus]

Ok, so this is probably my first time posting in this thread as I am not usually inclined to pilot dredge, but now may be a good opportunity for Dredge to take advantage of the meta. Everyone is preying on Shops and dredge has a natural game plan to trump shops. However, you can't be sloppy in building a good dredge list so here goes my first attempt. Let me know what you might change:


Sanctified Dredge

Lands (13):
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City Of Brass
2 Dakmor Salvage

Artifacts (8):
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Serum Powder

Enchantments (8):
4 Bridge From Below
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Creatures (23):
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
1 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Iona, Shield Of Emeria/Sadistic Hypnotist

Sorceries (6):
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

Instants (2):
2 Darkblast

SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Chain Of Vapor
1 City of Brass
4 Nature’s Claim
2 Firestorm

There you have it. So I am inexperienced as a dredge pilot, but I like to fancy myself a decent deck builder. This list bears a little explanation however.

MD Leyline Of Sanctity -- Against Storm you really want to win game 1 you want to be on the play for a possible game 3 in order to abuse Chalice. The White Leyline actually helps a great deal in this regard and can be a real pain to deal with if they aren't running Chain of Vapor or Repeal. Then they have to go to the slow Tinker Plan which you can often easily race.

4 MD Ichorid -- You counted that right. Not 2, not 3, but 4 of the deck's original namesake. Why you might ask? Reason #1: Shops. Reason #2: Shops. Reason #3, 4, 5: SHOPS! Ichorid is your one free way to make Zombie tokens and he doesn't even require you to have a land in hand like Bloodghast. And because Ghast can't block you'll have a hard time getting rid of him to make Zombies if a couple sphere effects hit the table. Ichorid is your way to generate damage and permanents vs. Shops.

1 Iona & 1 Woodfall Primus -- I figure that Flame-kin Zeolot is not needed if you can either:

a) Keep your opponent from winning for at least 1 turn (Iona)
b) Kill a pesky card like Tabernacle or Ensnaring Bridge.

Primus also comes back which allows for two sacs in the same turn and that is key. Flame-kin Zeolot wins on the spot, but only if you've reached the critical mass. If you havn't, he might as well be a blank vs. TPS as they can just go off the next turn. Iona stops this. I'd equate Iona more to a card like Sadistic Hypnotist except that Iona somewhat precludes the possibility of a lucky topdeck for combo.

2 SB Firestorm -- I run these in conjunction with Darkblast instead of just Darkblast. I like the fact that Firestorm allows you to occasionally keep a non bazaar hand game 2 or 3. Most importantly, Firestorm is in there for insane 2-for-1's like 3 damage to Jace, Confidant, and you. Who wouldn't want a card that answers double Jailer while allowing you to pitch your hand?

I think that most of the other slots are somewhat standard. One key omission to my list is Serenity. Many top players are a proponent of this card and claim that it has won them matches. I would submit that those matches were won already on the basis of a poorly designed or poorly piloted (or both) shop deck. If you EVER reach 3 mana (which you WILL need to achieve vs. shops in order to resolve this little duder) and are not yet dead to something like Golem beats then there is something wrong with this picture. You run 12 lands (Maximum) that produce mana and ALL of them are waste-able. What alternate reality do you live in where having the mana to pay for Serenity is possible? Seriously. It's terrible. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that they can still swing in with Golems on more turn even if you DO resolve it. LOL? I'm not trying to be down on the most hot "tech" for beating shops, but this is just not it. Chalice @1 is a problem yes, but being able to cast a Serenity is never going to happen so I'll take Chalice @1 and deal with it any day over running garbage like Serenity. I mean, if you are running 4 Ichorid (as current lists should I think) you still have a very viable way to win under Chalice @1. And think of this: IF they Chaliced for 1 then they were not spending that mana on something like Golem that turn or Steel Hellkite.

Anyway, Discuss away!

-Storm

[TheBrassMan]

I swear this has been said here before, but my understanding is that the Serenity-supporters aren't running it for the Workshop matchup at all, rather as a way to answer multiple enchantment/artifact hate cards at once (double leyline, multiple crypts, etc).  If it happens to work in the Shop matchup as well (if you even bring it in there), that's just gravy.

[Killane]

More experienced Dredge pilots than me might have some more commentary here, but here goes:

If built properly, Dredge has a 2-3 turn goldfish at worst. Most Storm decks are not this fast. Chalice at zero is murder on them, and the fast ones usually need will to goldfish you on turn 2. The only "real" deck that races you game one is the mirror (and Dark Times utterly slaughters you if they've done their scouting, but that is a horrible matchup that should be next to unwinnable anyways, and is very rare). As a result, I believe Void is the correct maindeck leyline, and that Sanctity should come out of the board.

Iona is very Meh vs Storm in this matchup in my experience - they can bounce it if you name black, and just kill you if you name blue. Most Storm pilots are used to playing around her these days. She's much better against them in Oath backed by Countermagic. It's not hard to get the 6 Zombies you need for Flamekin Zealot (assuming you have nothing else on board), and even if you only have 5 Zombies, putting them to 2 can make it VERY hard to get a lethal Tendrils. You just want to Kill them NOW. Therapy is INSANE in this matchup anyways if you know Storm decks well, and Chalice rapes them. Zealot is way better vs Public Enemy #1 - Shops. You want Zealot.

[Womba]

Iona is just not the best card for the current meta-game right now IMO especially with Chalice and MD white Leyline, and Cabal Therapy your deck will have reach against the storm decks. Obviously you are unable to name Brown against shop decks, and against non-storm blue decks they can play around it or through it. Also you are passing up on a possible turn 2-3 kill card for your deck. My main argument against Iona is if you fall behind it does nothing to the board for you, where as FKZ lets you win. I think a dredge deck should play more aggressive and play to win rather to play cards that don't lose. FKZ gives the deck a lot of reach for when you are behind or about to lose, and if you are dread returning you should be winning anyway not playing to not lose. I like the idea of more Ichorids however for that I feel like it should be Thug > Darkblast. Thug not only dredges for more but it is additional fuel for your Ichorids, especially since you are running two Dakmor Salvages, which means you don't want to be using Bloodghasts to fuel Ichorid because you will be able to trigger Bloodghast fairly more consistent also. My biggest concern about playing a list like this is no MD answers to a Leyline of the Void. I feel you should have just something so the deck's best game (game 1) in terms of winning percentage is not a total waste. I can see the reasons for not including outs for a MD Leyline of the Void, a lot of decks don't play that, you only have X amount of card thats you have to draw into to get your actual out, etc. I feel that it doesn't skew the decks game 1 winning percentage enough to NOT include an out or two for a MD Leyline of the Void IMO.

Looking at the Serenity discussion, I think Brass Man kinda said it best, I am not a fan of overloading the board with 3-4 (1-2 seems right) because a lot of times it is there just to hit multiple Leylines and pieces of hate on board (Crypt, Needle, Spellbomb, etc.). Serenity is not a shops only card, it is just gravy if it works there too  . It has a lot of relevance against a ton of decks since it kills artifacts and enchantments, Oath, Fastbond, multiple Leylines, artifact hate, etc.

I do really like the idea of 4 MD Ichorids for this current meta, although for now I would say your 75 is about 5-7 cards off from what I would try to play right now.

[Stormanimagus]

Iona is just not the best card for the current meta-game right now IMO especially with Chalice and MD white Leyline, and Cabal Therapy your deck will have reach against the storm decks. Obviously you are unable to name Brown against shop decks, and against non-storm blue decks they can play around it or through it. Also you are passing up on a possible turn 2-3 kill card for your deck. My main argument against Iona is if you fall behind it does nothing to the board for you, where as FKZ lets you win. I think a dredge deck should play more aggressive and play to win rather to play cards that don't lose. FKZ gives the deck a lot of reach for when you are behind or about to lose, and if you are dread returning you should be winning anyway not playing to not lose. I like the idea of more Ichorids however for that I feel like it should be Thug > Darkblast. Thug not only dredges for more but it is additional fuel for your Ichorids, especially since you are running two Dakmor Salvages, which means you don't want to be using Bloodghasts to fuel Ichorid because you will be able to trigger Bloodghast fairly more consistent also. My biggest concern about playing a list like this is no MD answers to a Leyline of the Void. I feel you should have just something so the deck's best game (game 1) in terms of winning percentage is not a total waste. I can see the reasons for not including outs for a MD Leyline of the Void, a lot of decks don't play that, you only have X amount of card thats you have to draw into to get your actual out, etc. I feel that it doesn't skew the decks game 1 winning percentage enough to NOT include an out or two for a MD Leyline of the Void IMO.

Looking at the Serenity discussion, I think Brass Man kinda said it best, I am not a fan of overloading the board with 3-4 (1-2 seems right) because a lot of times it is there just to hit multiple Leylines and pieces of hate on board (Crypt, Needle, Spellbomb, etc.). Serenity is not a shops only card, it is just gravy if it works there too  . It has a lot of relevance against a ton of decks since it kills artifacts and enchantments, Oath, Fastbond, multiple Leylines, artifact hate, etc.

I do really like the idea of 4 MD Ichorids for this current meta, although for now I would say your 75 is about 5-7 cards off from what I would try to play right now.

I can understand your reasoning for FKZ, but the thing I take issue with is this: what if you don't have lethal on the board? It is entirely possible that with something like Double Cobra out your opponent will be able to chump a couple dudes and then FKZ becomes non-lethal pretty quick. Or, if they run something like Fish with Goyfs? I mean, how long do you have to wait before going for the lethal FKZ, and how likely will it be games 2 and 3 when you have having to dilute your deck with anti-hate. Iona effects the game right now and allows you to win over the course of a couple swings so Iona can absolutely help you win from being behind. if you have lethal FKZ they will counter the dread return if they can. If you have Iona they will probably counter dread return if they can. That's not the issue here. The issue is IF you are resolving Dread Return vs. Storm combo or Jace Control which target do you want? I would argue that Iona is far more sturdy as it allows you to dread return early or late for the win most of the time. If you have an opening game Leyline of Sanctity then naming blue with Iona is a hard lock that they can't get out of. Obviously Iona sucks vs. MUD but you side it out in that match-up. Woodfall Primus is more than capable of taking care of pesky permanents like Tabernacle or Ensnaring Bridge. Now Bridge + Welder is a real issue, but that's why you have things like Darkblast and Leyline Of The Void.

Ok, now to the Darkblast comment. I realize that Ichorids need more black creatures, but you can also remove another Ichorid you know. I dunno. Perhaps a second Thug is warranted, but I don't really like going to any less than 4 permanent answers to Jailer.

Finally, the Serenity debate. I see what Brassman is saying, but I'm still not convinced. Honestly, waiting a whole turn to nuke the board is just not acceptable, and 9 times out of 10 a Nature's Claim is all you'll need. Players don't often mull into Double Leyline, and if they ever do, the rest of their hand is often not enough to get a terribly fast start. I'll take getting beat by double Leyline once in a blue moon to have a better overall sideboard. Honestly, players are not often running 2 pieces of hate that both get nuked by serenity. Smart players will run Leylines with Jailers or Jailers and Needles or even some number of traps. Oh, and Relics & Nihil Spellbombs can just be popped to cantrip and gain a momentary advantage. Serenity would only be playable vs. Shops if it was even close to good in that match-up. It is not just "gravy" as Brassman stated because you'll never be able to cast it. I dare someone to test against a competent Shop pilot playing something like Espresso Stax and tell me how many games you reach even 3 mana, let alone 4 or 5. I can guess that it will not be many. The amount of games that you'll reach 2 mana will be far more and so a card like Nature's Claim makes some sense where as a card like Serenity does not. It's just simple logic guys. If you don't have the mana to cast a spell you won't be able to cast that spell. Honestly though, even Claim can be too much mana at times and that's why I'm a proponent of running 4 Ichorid. That is the real key to keeping the pressure on a Shops pilot while they try to tighten their grip on the game.

-Storm

[Womba]

Iona is just not the best card for the current meta-game right now IMO especially with Chalice and MD white Leyline, and Cabal Therapy your deck will have reach against the storm decks. Obviously you are unable to name Brown against shop decks, and against non-storm blue decks they can play around it or through it. Also you are passing up on a possible turn 2-3 kill card for your deck. My main argument against Iona is if you fall behind it does nothing to the board for you, where as FKZ lets you win. I think a dredge deck should play more aggressive and play to win rather to play cards that don't lose. FKZ gives the deck a lot of reach for when you are behind or about to lose, and if you are dread returning you should be winning anyway not playing to not lose. I like the idea of more Ichorids however for that I feel like it should be Thug > Darkblast. Thug not only dredges for more but it is additional fuel for your Ichorids, especially since you are running two Dakmor Salvages, which means you don't want to be using Bloodghasts to fuel Ichorid because you will be able to trigger Bloodghast fairly more consistent also. My biggest concern about playing a list like this is no MD answers to a Leyline of the Void. I feel you should have just something so the deck's best game (game 1) in terms of winning percentage is not a total waste. I can see the reasons for not including outs for a MD Leyline of the Void, a lot of decks don't play that, you only have X amount of card thats you have to draw into to get your actual out, etc. I feel that it doesn't skew the decks game 1 winning percentage enough to NOT include an out or two for a MD Leyline of the Void IMO.

Looking at the Serenity discussion, I think Brass Man kinda said it best, I am not a fan of overloading the board with 3-4 (1-2 seems right) because a lot of times it is there just to hit multiple Leylines and pieces of hate on board (Crypt, Needle, Spellbomb, etc.). Serenity is not a shops only card, it is just gravy if it works there too  . It has a lot of relevance against a ton of decks since it kills artifacts and enchantments, Oath, Fastbond, multiple Leylines, artifact hate, etc.

I do really like the idea of 4 MD Ichorids for this current meta, although for now I would say your 75 is about 5-7 cards off from what I would try to play right now.

I can understand your reasoning for FKZ, but the thing I take issue with is this: what if you don't have lethal on the board? It is entirely possible that with something like Double Cobra out your opponent will be able to chump a couple dudes and then FKZ becomes non-lethal pretty quick. Or, if they run something like Fish with Goyfs? I mean, how long do you have to wait before going for the lethal FKZ, and how likely will it be games 2 and 3 when you have having to dilute your deck with anti-hate. Iona effects the game right now and allows you to win over the course of a couple swings so Iona can absolutely help you win from being behind. if you have lethal FKZ they will counter the dread return if they can. If you have Iona they will probably counter dread return if they can. That's not the issue here. The issue is IF you are resolving Dread Return vs. Storm combo or Jace Control which target do you want? I would argue that Iona is far more sturdy as it allows you to dread return early or late for the win most of the time. If you have an opening game Leyline of Sanctity then naming blue with Iona is a hard lock that they can't get out of. Obviously Iona sucks vs. MUD but you side it out in that match-up. Woodfall Primus is more than capable of taking care of pesky permanents like Tabernacle or Ensnaring Bridge. Now Bridge + Welder is a real issue, but that's why you have things like Darkblast and Leyline Of The Void.

Ok, now to the Darkblast comment. I realize that Ichorids need more black creatures, but you can also remove another Ichorid you know. I dunno. Perhaps a second Thug is warranted, but I don't really like going to any less than 4 permanent answers to Jailer.

Finally, the Serenity debate. I see what Brassman is saying, but I'm still not convinced. Honestly, waiting a whole turn to nuke the board is just not acceptable, and 9 times out of 10 a Nature's Claim is all you'll need. Players don't often mull into Double Leyline, and if they ever do, the rest of their hand is often not enough to get a terribly fast start. I'll take getting beat by double Leyline once in a blue moon to have a better overall sideboard. Honestly, players are not often running 2 pieces of hate that both get nuked by serenity. Smart players will run Leylines with Jailers or Jailers and Needles or even some number of traps. Oh, and Relics & Nihil Spellbombs can just be popped to cantrip and gain a momentary advantage. Serenity would only be playable vs. Shops if it was even close to good in that match-up. It is not just "gravy" as Brassman stated because you'll never be able to cast it. I dare someone to test against a competent Shop pilot playing something like Espresso Stax and tell me how many games you reach even 3 mana, let alone 4 or 5. I can guess that it will not be many. The amount of games that you'll reach 2 mana will be far more and so a card like Nature's Claim makes some sense where as a card like Serenity does not. It's just simple logic guys. If you don't have the mana to cast a spell you won't be able to cast that spell. Honestly though, even Claim can be too much mana at times and that's why I'm a proponent of running 4 Ichorid. That is the real key to keeping the pressure on a Shops pilot while they try to tighten their grip on the game.

-Storm

Umm....I never have had a situation come up where FKZ wasn't lethal so I am really unsure how to approach your disdain for the card and your reasoning for not running the card. Also in the case they are running fish, Iona still seems even worse in that match-up. As for them countering it, I believe you set up your Dread Return with Cabal Therapy. With 4 Ichoirds I feel your FKZ would be even more consistent and/or faster than the other builds out there. I just don't see how Iona at any point warrants a spot over FKZ. I would suggest playing some games against storm combo and using your Cabal Therapys to hit their hand, I am just kinda at a loss for words on this subject, giving your opponent extra turns instead of killing them seems wrong.

As for Darkblast < Thug with 4 Ichorids, I believe the SB is there to help deal with Jailers. I can't recall any lists that actually MD Jailers as opposed to decks that MD Leyline of the Void.

Your argument for Serenity however is very valid, after playing some games today I have cut Serenity as of now. It may have been a comfort thing, or trying to have ONE-TWO outs if the deck could get there against shops, but I agree that having the Ichorids for pressure and board presence is a far better strategy and idea than hoping to hit a game state where you are able to cast Serenity.

[Stormanimagus]

After thinking about your comments a bit I agree with most of them. I will be testing Iona + Primus, but I think I'm going to find that Zealot is better when all is said and done. As to the D-Blast vs. Thug argument. I dunno what the exact right balance is, but I think some D-Blasts are warranted MD and not really because of the possibility of MD Jailer. They are there to nab an early Confidant or Lotus Cobra. Perhaps it is folly to keep them in for that reason alone, but I don't see a huge difference between dredge 3 and dredge 4 and I'll take utility over 1 extra card dredged. As for the black creature count: I have yet to have a problem with it when running just 1 Thug and I think that has to do with running 4 Ichorid. Remember that you can remove Ichorid to Ichorid in a pinch and sometimes you just need 1 ichorid to hit play so you can produce 3 2/2s ftw against a slowish shop hand. Darkblasts are also MD for another critical reason: to free up board space. Perhaps I could run 1 MD Blast and 2 Thug, but that is 1 slot less that I have free in my SB and right now the SB is pretty much full. I'm not exactly sure what I'd cut from there to make room for Darkblast #2. Thanks for the solid debate .

-Storm

[saspook]

Most importantly, Firestorm is in there for insane 2-for-1's like 3 damage to Jace, Confidant, and you.

This is wrong, Jace / you (the controller of Jace) are the same target.

[Mith]

From the Xtreme Games tourney...Crop Rotation instead of Serum Powder:

4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
2 golgari thug
4 ichorid
4 bloodghast
4 cabal therapy
2 dread return
1 flame-kin zealoot
1 terastadon
4 chalice of the void
4 leyline of the void
4 undiscovered paradise
4 city of brass
4 bazaar of bagdad
4 narcomoeba
4 bridge from below
4 crop rotation
1 darkblast
1 dakmor salvage
SB
4 unmask
4 chain of vapor
4 natures claim
3 darkblast


Interesting concept...I'll have to test it out and see. While I love being able to pick hands with Serum Powder...it makes sense to just be able to grab your Bazaar with a Rotation.

[Valorale]

Not really a new concept, just one that comes and goes. Biggest problem with crop rotation is 1 FoW or spell pierce and youre in serious trouble. The good news is that you can sometimes sneak it by a weak player who doesnt know what youre doing.

Here was the list I ran at Richmond Oct 30th event, I lost in the first around of the quarter finals to Paul Mastriano who decimated me with a 10 card anti-dredge sideboard:

7th Place
Ryan Seeley – Dredge

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
2 Ichorid
2 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Unmask
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Crop Rotation
2 Nature's Claim
4 Bridge From Below

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Petrified Field
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard
2 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapors
2 Contagion
3 Firestorm
3 Serenity
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Ichorid

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41233.msg574448#msg574448


Last thing .. to echo Womba, I have -never- lost a game where I resolved a dread return on a FKZ, never. I have ranted and raved in the past about Iona. I simply do not understand people's obsession with putting it in dredge. I used to run an Angel of Despair in case my opponent ran moat, ensnaring bridge etc but eventually took her out because I never ran into those cards. My current list runs 1 FKZ (sometimes 2) as my dread return targets. Sometimes I pack an Angel of Despair in the board.

[meadbert]

Regarding Crop Rotation:

Not really a new concept, just one that comes and goes. Biggest problem with crop rotation is 1 FoW or spell pierce and youre in serious trouble. The good news is that you can sometimes sneak it by a weak player who doesnt know what youre doing.

It is even worse than Valorale says here.  A more complete list of cards that will mess you up is:
Force of Will
Spell Pierce
Daze
Negate
Mana Leak
Duress
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy
Unmask
Chalice Of The Void @1
Sphere of Resistance
Thorn of Amethyst
Lodestone Golem
Trinisphere
Leonin Arbiter
Root Maze

That list is only likely turn 1 plays.

[Delha]

Last thing .. to echo Womba, I have -never- lost a game where I resolved a dread return on a FKZ, never.

I'm no Ichorid player, but this sounds to me like one of two things:

1. Not enough games played. Since no critter is an absolute 100% guaranteed win on resolution, if you've never been in a situation where resolution would be insufficient, you just haven't collected a large enough sampling.

2. Circumstances warping the results. If you're staring down a lethal robot/vault/whatever, dredge a bunch, then stall out with three narcos and one bridge (+Dread & FKZ, obv), scooping is the same as "losing a game where FKZ got returned". Choosing to not actually cast the spell keeps your statement technically true, but that doesn't change the fact that this was a game where FKZ could not do the job, even though you had the means to get him on the board.

Not trying to make a statement on what fattie to choose, just pointing out a hole in the logic of that argument.