[Worldwake - New Card Discussion] Jace, The Mindsculptor

[Suicideking]

My prediction is that this card will be in a few winning decklists.  Most of them will probably be Tommy Kolowith's.

I think this card is much like LoA or top.  Its going to swing control mirrors completely to the controller.  It reminds me of playing scepter with brainstorm and how lopsided it could turn games.

[Wagner]

But are 4cc sorcery speed spells in the control mirror?

Huh, what? There seems to be an important word missing here.

But are 4cc sorcery speed spells good in the control mirror?

Maybe?

[Diakonov]

I can barely ever convince myself to run FoF.  There's no way this card would take precedence over that, for me at least.

[nineisnoone]

I think everyone is underrating this card.  4 mana isn't that expensive and drawing 3 additional cards, even with putting 2 back on top of you deck, IS a win condition.  What respectable control deck is going to lose once this card drops? 

It's a sorcery.... whatever. 

So is Tinker (which it beats barring Inkwell).  So is Tezzeret.  If you count this as being a turn faster for being a mana cheaper, Jace gives you + 9 cards for 3 turns (2 turns of Jace, Tezz tutors Vault, Jace, Tezz wins) of his effect to the 2 turns that Tezzeret takes to win.  9 cards to beat the combo, 6 to beat the initial Tezz.  It's not as good if you are on the draw, but then again it'd be better than having a Tezz of your own on the draw.

Fact and Gifts are worse than this card.  Fact, while unrestricted, is just a good draw spell, and Gifts was never as good of a card as people thought it was.  MDG was strong more because of Scroll than Gifts.  Concentrate... no.  That's like saying you'd run Night's Whisper over Dark Confidant. 

It's a 4 mana Brainstorm every turn.  Brainstorm is a restricted card.  Hell, actually after the first turn it's a 4 mana Thirst for Knowledge every turn since it nets you a card.  Another restricted card.  Every turn. 

I'm not saying it's going to set the world on fire, but given how much discussion past card have gotten this deserves more than one line dismissals.

[Vegeta2711]

4 mana isn't that expensive

Man, what world are you people living in? Four mana was expensive back when Keeper was good, let alone a decade later with all the advancements we've made in deck building and the increase in power level.

Fact and Gifts are worse than this card.

Oh, now I get it. You're just making shit up now to try and justify it. Here, I'll help you out. Brainstorm reduced to Sorcery Speed isn't that good. If you want to know why it isn't good, think about all the times Brainstorm was used to react to an opponent's line of play rather than simply setting up your next turn. When four BS were legal, we did this a lot. In addition, the ability to continually draw / look at your top three is considerably less amazing if you don't hit a Fetchland to help control the quality of your draws. FOF is a bit oudated nowadays for one reason... Because it's four mana. Gifts Ungiven is only overrated in your own mind, so using that as some sort of case against it seems ridiculous.

And you know what respectable control deck will lose once this card drops? The one that just tapped down to play a four mana sorcery that didn't win the game. If you have the time and ability to play some big sorcery speed spell to set up a win, guess what? You had already won before you even cast that! Congratulations!

[median]

Here, I'll help you out. Brainstorm reduced to Sorcery Speed isn't that good

one thing to keep in mind, is that you get uncounterable brainstorms.
when i duress i often take the brainstorm and against some decks, i'll spell pierce a first or second turn BS if i think they need a land drop or hand fix. what this card does will be different. i see it more like a really good ophidian. phid draws at more or less sorcery speed, and both will come online at the same time.
do people play ophidian?
not really.
if there was a really good one would they?
yes. they play dark confidant.
will, this replace dark confidant?
up in the air.

[itslarrysilly]

Do you really think that this is a possible replacement for DC? I understand that it gives you unlimited brainstorms but the fact that they aren't instant speed and aren't coming online t1 to help dig for mana/answers/whatever else you need is a big negative.
Comparing this to gifts seems kinda crazy that card was basically an "I win" when resolved. This while it might help you find one ( a wincon) doesn't really seem to be that kind of a finisher.

[dark burn]

You guys dont seem to realize that this does not give you free brainstorms, this actually gives you a sorcery that says 2UU: draw 3 cards and put two back on top of your library, netting you 0 card advantage, and every turn after that, draw 3 cards and put 2 cards back on top of your library, netting you +1 card advantage at no aditional mana.

Now, I dont know if this will be good in blue decks, but to evaluate the card you definately have to look at it correctly.  I believe that if you can play it consistently on turn 4 and protect it from opposing creatures, it will be an absolute gamebreaker.  The only way vintage decks deal with this card once resolved are bounce spells and creatures.  If fish is a big enough player in the metagame, this might die to easily, otherwise, it should stick for a few turns at least.

[Will]

This card seems like it ought to be at least pretty good in some type of blue deck.  Once you resolve it you have answers to Tinker creatures, a permanent draw engine, and an inevitable win condition.  It won't straight up win you the game most times but it's probably a must counter.  When you resolve this guy you should not really lose in Type1 especially when the creature count is limited so that having only 3 loyalty isn't a big problem.  I'm not gonna say that this guy will be the best card in the format but it is an option for control decks that are looking for another versatile blue card. 

[gkraigher]

jace's mana cost is not expensive considering what you are getting in return for it.

you get an immediate brainstorm, unsummon, or random counter to imperial seal. 

then each turn after you get a brainstorm--which is very similar to the combined effects of both dark confidant and sensei's diving top, save the damage.  that combination costs 3 mana combined and cannot be pitched to force of will.

simply unsummoning a creature 3 turns in a row can also be the path to victory.

again, his fourth ability is not absolutely irrelavent (although trivial), and is an alternative winning condition for tez if you cannot attack your opponent. 

[policehq]

Isn't this potentially good in and against Oath? Hasn't Oath (that uses the combat phase) been hurting since the restriction of Brainstorm with ways to put its creatures back? I realize now there is an Oath variant that wins with or without the creature and is graveyard-based, but this card is something to keep in mind with deck design.

Besides it acts like a Seal of Removal against Iona in that you can play it before "blue" is named.

All this, and you increase your card quality the turn it comes out and card advantage every turn after.

[nineisnoone]

4 mana isn't that expensive

Man, what world are you people living in? Four mana was expensive back when Keeper was good, let alone a decade later with all the advancements we've made in deck building and the increase in power level.

Fact and Gifts are worse than this card.

Oh, now I get it. You're just making shit up now to try and justify it. Here, I'll help you out. Brainstorm reduced to Sorcery Speed isn't that good. If you want to know why it isn't good, think about all the times Brainstorm was used to react to an opponent's line of play rather than simply setting up your next turn. When four BS were legal, we did this a lot. In addition, the ability to continually draw / look at your top three is considerably less amazing if you don't hit a Fetchland to help control the quality of your draws. FOF is a bit oudated nowadays for one reason... Because it's four mana. Gifts Ungiven is only overrated in your own mind, so using that as some sort of case against it seems ridiculous.

And you know what respectable control deck will lose once this card drops? The one that just tapped down to play a four mana sorcery that didn't win the game. If you have the time and ability to play some big sorcery speed spell to set up a win, guess what? You had already won before you even cast that! Congratulations!

I didn't say 4 mana wasn't expensive.  I said it's not *that* expensive.  4 mana in blue is do-able.  It's not cheap, but it's doable.  I don't understand why you are talking about Keeper.  It is very impressive though.

And calling it a 4 mana Brainstorm is just completely inaccurate.  That's like saying Ancestral Vision and Ancestral Recall are the same thing.... You know, because both statements completely ignore portions of the card text.

You don't even answer my point.  You say Fact or Fiction sucks....  Okay, well it IS still run in decks so apparently it doesn't suck so much that it isn't playable.  Gifts is overrated like Tezzeret is overrated.  Even though it's the name of the deck, the power of the deck comes elsewhere (Scroll and Vault respectively).  They both generally barely make the cut in their own decks as one-ofs and that's NOT something I'm making up.  And again, so what?  Gifts is still played. 

If I am "making shit up to justify it" then you're just "saying shit to try to look smart."  But nothing that you said even argues with what I'm saying.  You don't address that it drops and wins the game on it's own (which Fact doesn't and Gifts doesn't do on it's own). 

You just say that Fact sucks and you think Gifts is rated properly.  But that means nothing.  I only brought up the cards because people keep saying "I'd rather play Facts/Gifts over this."  Nothing that you said even attempted to convince me otherwise. 

If you have the time and ability to play some big sorcery speed spell to set up a win, guess what? You had already won before you even cast that! Congratulations!

You mean like Yawgmoth's Will?  Or Tinker?  Or Time Twister?  Or the other bevy of sorcery speed win conditions?  That argument is a joke.  The only (off the top of my head) true instant speed win condition was Flash.  Even Gifts operated on sorcery-speed spells post-tutor. 

So what?  Are you saying that you didn't need to "have the time and ability" to set-up Gifts?  That you just plop it down randomly and it wins the game?  You can say the same thing about any of those cards and others. 

[median]

just to piggy back onto what policeHQ said about oath, i could actually see this in oath. can you imagine an oath mirror? it would all be about who got this guy down second. it's still better than lat-nam's legacy.

[LotusHead]

Lorescale Coatl
Card Text: Whenever you draw a card, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Lorescale Coatl.
Cost: 1GU
Pow/Tgh: (2/2)

For decks that tried Lorescale Coatl,  new Jace would be a tidy way to draw 4 cards every turn!

[Eastman]

Four mana and doesn't win the game or even put you in a direct position to win the game. Unplayable in Vintage.

People will try though, they always do.

It's playable if only because people will put it in blue-ish decks that are really strong already, and it does draw cards.  It won't make those decks better than already printed alternatives, however.  Reminds me of Glen Elendra.  Neat effect/unique card, and only makes blue decks a little bit worse == control players who want to be innovative will play it. 

[Stormanimagus]

Lorescale Coatl
Card Text: Whenever you draw a card, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Lorescale Coatl.
Cost: 1GU
Pow/Tgh: (2/2)

For decks that tried Lorescale Coatl,  new Jace would be a tidy way to draw 4 cards every turn!

I was thinking this exact thing. I could really see this finding a home in some U/b/g concoction like BUG Fish that runs Coatls and perhaps Confidants as well. It could also have pretty sick uses in the Counterbalance deck as way to manipulate Confidant Reveals and to set up a proper Counterbalance reveal. Man, if only you could do loyalty removal at instant speed! Damn.

-Storm

[mike_bergeron]

Master Transmuter.  I already fell for this trap once and was dead wrong, blue cards that have neat abilities but cost 4 mana. This does not seem to do enough right away to make it viable in today's game.  Anything costing 4 mana is either being cheated out with workshop (smokestack/jugg/etc) or is being used to gain an extreme advantage or win on the spot.  The other spells being mentioned are just so much stronger than this, especially where the metagame is (in my opinion) tezz based control vs. the field.  Ichorid doesnt care, workshop will make it tough to cast, it makes your opponents tarmogoyfs bigger when they t-seize/kill it....I just do not see it making an impact- sorry dudes.

it's a cool card though!

[Vegeta2711]

Quote
4 mana isn't that expensive

In the current Vintage metagame, anything beyond 2 mana, at sorcery speed needs to win the game.  Now, there is a notable exception for workshop decks, or other decks that "cheat" cards into play, but mana drain is the closest thing to "cheating" Jace into play.  Take a look at the a current Top 8's and here's what you'll see at more than 2 mana sorcery speed -

Things that win - Tinker targets (including Jar), Tezzeret, Tendrils, Cold-Eyed Selkie and Knight of the Relinquary
Yawgmoth's Bargain - draws a lot more cards than Jace
Necropotence - draws a lot more cards than Jace
Mind's Desire - usually wins the game on the spot
Grim Tutor - This would be unplayable if it were 4 mana

Out of the above cards, the only ones that cost 4 or more are ones that actually win. 

Sower of Temptation - This is the only counterpoint I can see.  They both cost the same, but I maintain that Sower leads to winning games, where Jace lead to losing games due to the opening he creates. 
 
Quote
Fact and Gifts are worse than this card.

Brainstorm reduced to Sorcery Speed isn't that good. Think about all the times Brainstorm was used to react to an opponent's line of play rather than setting up your next turn. The ability to continually draw / look at your top three is considerably less amazing if you don't hit a Fetchland to help control the quality of your draws. FOF is a bit oudated nowadays because it's four mana. Gifts Ungiven is restricted for a reason - It wins games. 

If you have the time and ability to play a 4cc sorcery speed spell to set up a win, then you had already won before you even cast it.

[Blue Lotus]

Tapping out main phase for anything just isn't very good is a control deck.  Sure you get to brainstorm, but they get to land a bunch of threats uncontested.

This is just one of those things where the burden of proof is on those who advocate for the card. 

[InfectedMushroom]

I can see both points of view for this card, however, the only way we will know if it makes an impact will be to test. In Europe, where many decks are Fish based, I don't see it making any impact as it will be too slow and killed quickly. The USA may prove to be different.

The card does have some great qualities but I'm not sure it can make the cut in Vintage. Sensei's Divining Top is just faster to come down and has a better synergy with the rest of the Vintage playable cards. Sure the Unsummon part is great, but it does not address Inkwell Leviathan which is still played in many decks. I can't see it being fast enough to combat Oath decks though. It's useless against Dredge and marginally useful against Workshop decks.

The ability to see what your opponent will draw does not advance your board position, and really only affects Imperial Seal. It's not helping you win and by the time it would be useful, the game should be over.

Some decks will surely test this card out and it may have a spot in some decks. I just don't see it making the cut over other currently playable cards.

[Neonico]

PLaying 1 or 2 copies of the lorwyn Jace in my tezzeret build (Featuring Vendilion clique and Dark Confidant) i will be really happy with the new jace in the deck.

I read the comment about glen-elendra : I really think that this jace isn't only for innovative players to try something. It will be really good in tezz builds just because it's not worst than a deep analysis for example, which is clearly good in drain mirrors.

No one even mentionned the real good synergy with fetchlands, obviously, but more importantly, with Dark Confidant. I'm not a huge fan of sensei's divining top in the actual metagame (too much Null rod) and it's a really good replacement, as long as you don't consider Top to be a 3rd 1 mana manipulation spell like ponder and brainstorm, which it is not anyway.

And i have allways been happy to tap out to play lorwyn jace on turn 2 or 3 in a drain mirror. The restriction of brainstorm and thirst, is exactly what allows you more to tap out in the control mirror. Bombs are alot harder to find now than it was 2 years ago. And you have duress effetcs to be sure that beside a topdeck, the path is clear.

[Purple Hat]

how much play is Sylvan Library seeing these days?  That should pretty much answer your questions about how good a brainstorm on your turn every turn is.

you can say "that's off color" but it's 1G compared to 2UU, I'd say that slightly favors the library.  You can say "it doesn't have all these random other abilities" but the other abilities are mostly useless.  And for the record I'd much rather have "terrible Necro" as an option than "negate imperial seal."  Now the library isn't a "true" brainstorm because you can't put back cards drawn in previous turns.  I submit that after the first or second activation of jace that aspect of him is largely irrelevant because you're just floating 2 cards on the top of your library looking for a shuffle. 

[MirariKnight]

Sylvan Library doesn't draw you an extra card unless you pay 4 life. Jace nets you a card every time he Brainstorms.
To me he seems a lot like a Super-LoA in the control mirror - he's also similarly bad in any other matchup.
Still, I'm testing him for sure, the effect is too powerful to just write off without giving it a shot.

[BruiZar]

Also, Sylvan Library doesn't brainstorm the turn it comes into play. I think that is very important to consider. This guy either unsummons or brainstorms immediately when he comes down, unlike sylvan library and dark confidant

[Ten-Ten]

  this "new" jace will definately see tons of play in type2 and extended. sort of like Vensor, shaper savant did when Future Sight came out.
 I do not see Jace, the mindsulpter being played in type1 though. There are too many cards that are way better than him as far as card advantage goes.
For example, the reason Dark confidant would be better in this is its cost. even though you wait a turn, it still 1 turn faster than this "Jace". not to mention BOB can beat down on Jace and your opponent, lol.
 There are cards like Omen, sleight of hand, serum visions, portent, impulse and strategic planning that do not see any play and imho, are way better in the card advantage catagory.(ok, maybe not so much portent but you get my point.)
 If any deck would consider Jace, the mindsculpter in type1, it would be "TheDeck"

[honestabe]

If he gets play at all, it'll probably be some janky-ass mono blue build.  anything else, why not just play Fof/Gifts/Tezzeret?

[vassago]

Neat effect/unique card, and only makes blue decks a little bit worse. 

I agree with this.  Out of the pool of playable cards in any blue based decks, this guy doesnt make the cut. Especially in a u/b or u/r/b list of tezz, can you honestly tell me you wouldn't pick some other card like gifts, fof, 2nd key or tezz, skeletal scrying....etc. The list of better cards can go on forever.   I would play a singleton portent before I played this guy.  Yes he is cool or whatever, but it doesnt do enough. I would dare say it really doesnt do anything except tie up a turn and waste four mana. 

[BruiZar]

My final conclusion is that this guy isn't going to be good enough. He will be able to steal some games but those games are probably winnable without him too. The tough matchups are where the margin for error is the slightest, and you need to have the most cost effective cards to gain the advantage early on. Topdecking Jace without being able to cast him is going to hurt your development and gives too much turns to your opponent in a format where we have the most actions/interactions per turn. Even if you would be able to cast him, the opportunity cost of a 4 mana investment is too great if you consider the alternatives the vintage card pool has to offer. One of the main criteria for a draw engine is that it's cheap so you can power it out quickly. Otherwise, we would still be playing with cards such as Jayemdae Tome, which was played before better alternatives were printed and the format speeded up so immensely.

This card is good in T2/Block because the turns are just less broken thus you will get more turns before the game is over and the effect of Jace will therefore be cumulatively better than it can be in Vintage.

[Neonico]

This card is good in T2/Block because the turns are just less broken thus you will get more turns before the game is over and the effect of Jace will therefore be cumulatively better than it can be in Vintage.

That's certainly why people played MEditate in an almost format dominant deck not that long ago ? that's technically exactly the same.

[BruiZar]

It is generally agreed upon that ancestral recall is better than time walk. Gaining 4 cards while being able to cast them (for free, ie pitchcounters/commandeer) and having an engine online that directly interacts with your opponent's ability to play cards (Mystic Remora) means that anything they will try to do will be irrelevant since you can win the counter wars with relative ease. Mystic Remora was used to negate the drawback of losing a turn and card advantage (instead of card quality) is more important in counter battles due to force of will eating up blue cards.