The MUD Thread

[madmanmike25]

I’m creating this thread to discuss MUD decks that will now contain Lodestone Golem.  I am posting my list because it has performed well even though it had Juggernauts.  This is not for any red or hybrid shop builds, those decks should be discussed in another thread if you don’t mind.  They probably should, because I can see this guy being a beast in Vintage.  Let's keep this discussion colorless.

Why MUD?  Glad you asked.  MUD can generate insane amounts of colorless mana very quickly.  With that mana you can lock your opponent out of the game or smash them to bits with big robots.   I like decks that can do both, because sometimes you need a Plan B.  The build I would like to discuss is versatile and even has resilience to Null Rod.  Builds that do not include Smokestack are a mistake in my opinion as it has performed so well and flat out won games for me.  On to the list;

MAD MUD 2010
Creatures: 14
4 Metalworker
4 Triskelion
4 Lodestone Golem (was Juggernaut)
2 Karn

Metal: 21
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Sword of Fire and Ice(I am cutting these since seeing less red)
1 Trinisphere

Mana+lands: 25
4 Mishas Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

SB(build for your meta, here’s what I am currently running)
2 Staff of Domination
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Jesters Cap
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Null Rod

So far Crypt, Vault, and yes, even Black Lotus have all been good.  The times I have died to Crypt I was losing anyway so it was moot.  Some are debating whether or not to include Lotus and I find that baffling.
Sword of Fire and Ice has been useful to varying degrees.  It turns your little 1/2 Welder into a Goblin killing machine that draws cards.  That being said, I may just up the land count by 2.

Top has been pretty damn good.   MUD has no cheap ‘draw’ and this helps quite a bit.  You can do tricks with it when you have metalworker in play to dig for another artifact in your hand and draw it netting you 1 mana.   Cool trick #1:
1.    Activate Top to see top 3
2.   In response, Tap and put draw on stack
3.   In response activate Top to see Top 3
It resolves in reverse order so you will get to see 3 cards, then draw(putting  top back in your library) then look at top 3 cards again and you can place top where u like.  I do that if I see 2 good cards I want without having to wait a turn by drawing Top again.  Other decks don’t do this because of shuffle effects that would lose Top.  The day they make a fetchland for Mishras Workshop my brain will explode…

Sphere is better in this deck because I want Welders and Confidants to cost more too.  Sphere hits everything.

Karn is great.  I’m sticking with only 2 because it’s Legendary and I want to see one but don’t need to see one.  If you love him, put in 3 by all means.  I used to run 2-3 Trikes as well and was sold on 4 when I saw how useful they really are.  Trike kills many creatures besides the obvious Welders, Confidants, and Ichorids.  Even though the combat damage on the stack was changed it’s a good card for MUD.   Is that opponent’s Time Vault or Key getting you down?  Cool Trick#2:
1.    Use Karn to animate troublesome 3cc or less artifact.
2.   Use Trike to kill said troublesome artifact.
Some people were really surprised when I did this.  They thought Karn’s diet only consisted of Moxen.

Well, that’s my list.  Feel free to ask questions or critique it.  I wanted to keep this short because there are many ways to go, this is just one of them.  Also feel free to post other MUD (again no colors please) lists here.  I’m sure someone will have success with an Aggro list containing 9 Spheres and 4 Lodestones.  Share.

To help really generate some good MUD discussion, I’ll share some tech I have been working on to address a big problem with MUD; a lack of a good draw engine.  What I tested was Crucible of Worlds and Horizon Canopy.  It works pretty good, a mana source that later turns into a draw engine or you can at least cycle them.  Having extra lands really ensures you don’t succumb to your own Sphere effects which is a MUD fail.

Thanks for reading,
Mike

[d0rsal]

wow our decks are pretty close madmanmike, but i suspect the different card choices make them play out quite a bit differently @ times.

5 mox
lotus
sol ring
mana crypt
4 workshops
4 ancient tombs
4 factories
4 wastes
strip
tolarian academy
4 juggs   <---  will be 4 lodestone golems
4 triskelions
4 metal workers
2 karns
2 arcbound ravagers
4 CoVs
4 relics
4 Spheres
1 trinisphere
1 crucible
1 staff of domination
1 SDT
2 SoFI


guess i should make a few comments about our diverging card choices:

you seem to be going for a more prison-esque style MUD w/ the smokestacks & tanglewires whereas i'm choosing to cut ppl off their graveyards by using relics.  too many welders + yawg will & ichorid not to address that imo.  & it helps mitigate 1 of MUD's biggest deficiencies, card draw.  its effect on my singleton crucible has been minimal.  i really like having the 1 crucible main deck b/c its nice to just sometimes "oops" into "strip/waste lock" but its not something that i count on.  i too was testing the crucible/horizon canopy combo as a possible draw engine for the deck & thats what made me decide to keep 1 in + it works well w/ the mishras factories.  that leads me to city of traitors & i've never been a big fan.  like you mentioned not having enough lands is fatal in MUD.  the "oops" factor is also why i'm running the singleton staff of domination + it can also act as a card drawer if necessary along w/ the SoFI's & SDT.  being able to draw your entire deck (not sure you should) & drop a ton of artifacts to sac & machine-gun your opponent w/ a triskelion is fun but that necessitated the inclusion of 2 arcbound ravagers imo.  yes you could get by w/ 1, but for me to feel comfortable w/ the combo, i wanted to have 2 in the deck.  last but not least, i luv SoFI, i dont think you should cut them, the benefits outweigh the negatives & i havent missed the mana vault.  i kept the crypt over it b/c i'd rather have a renewable mana source each turn than 1 that usually amounts to a 1 time boost

[silvernail]

I'd run - 2 ravager and +1 staff along with 1 X damage artifact ( either goblin cannon or magma mine). This way you can just infinite mana into infinite damage.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

An x dmg artifact is not necessary. Completing worker staff,  and laying a deck's worth of lock components, then passing the turn, have them do nothing under the entire decks worth of lock pieces and pass the turn, and swing with a bunch of dudes from Karn in addition to the dudes you already have will always get the job done...
... unless your on turn 5 after time or something.

[Stormanimagus]

I’m creating this thread to discuss MUD decks that will now contain Lodestone Golem.  I am posting my list because it has performed well even though it had Juggernauts.  This is not for any red or hybrid shop builds, those decks should be discussed in another thread if you don’t mind.  They probably should, because I can see this guy being a beast in Vintage.  Let's keep this discussion colorless.

Why MUD?  Glad you asked.  MUD can generate insane amounts of colorless mana very quickly.  With that mana you can lock your opponent out of the game or smash them to bits with big robots.   I like decks that can do both, because sometimes you need a Plan B.  The build I would like to discuss is versatile and even has resilience to Null Rod.  Builds that do not include Smokestack are a mistake in my opinion as it has performed so well and flat out won games for me.  On to the list;

MAD MUD 2010
Creatures: 14
4 Metalworker
4 Triskelion
4 Lodestone Golem (was Juggernaut)
2 Karn

Metal: 21
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Sword of Fire and Ice(I am cutting these since seeing less red)
1 Trinisphere

Mana+lands: 25
4 Mishas Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

SB(build for your meta, here’s what I am currently running)
2 Staff of Domination
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Jesters Cap
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Null Rod

So far Crypt, Vault, and yes, even Black Lotus have all been good.  The times I have died to Crypt I was losing anyway so it was moot.  Some are debating whether or not to include Lotus and I find that baffling.
Sword of Fire and Ice has been useful to varying degrees.  It turns your little 1/2 Welder into a Goblin killing machine that draws cards.  That being said, I may just up the land count by 2.

Top has been pretty damn good.   MUD has no cheap ‘draw’ and this helps quite a bit.  You can do tricks with it when you have metalworker in play to dig for another artifact in your hand and draw it netting you 1 mana.   Cool trick #1:
1.    Activate Top to see top 3
2.   In response, Tap and put draw on stack
3.   In response activate Top to see Top 3
It resolves in reverse order so you will get to see 3 cards, then draw(putting  top back in your library) then look at top 3 cards again and you can place top where u like.  I do that if I see 2 good cards I want without having to wait a turn by drawing Top again.  Other decks don’t do this because of shuffle effects that would lose Top.  The day they make a fetchland for Mishras Workshop my brain will explode…

Sphere is better in this deck because I want Welders and Confidants to cost more too.  Sphere hits everything.

Karn is great.  I’m sticking with only 2 because it’s Legendary and I want to see one but don’t need to see one.  If you love him, put in 3 by all means.  I used to run 2-3 Trikes as well and was sold on 4 when I saw how useful they really are.  Trike kills many creatures besides the obvious Welders, Confidants, and Ichorids.  Even though the combat damage on the stack was changed it’s a good card for MUD.   Is that opponent’s Time Vault or Key getting you down?  Cool Trick#2:
1.    Use Karn to animate troublesome 3cc or less artifact.
2.   Use Trike to kill said troublesome artifact.
Some people were really surprised when I did this.  They thought Karn’s diet only consisted of Moxen.

Well, that’s my list.  Feel free to ask questions or critique it.  I wanted to keep this short because there are many ways to go, this is just one of them.  Also feel free to post other MUD (again no colors please) lists here.  I’m sure someone will have success with an Aggro list containing 9 Spheres and 4 Lodestones.  Share.

To help really generate some good MUD discussion, I’ll share some tech I have been working on to address a big problem with MUD; a lack of a good draw engine.  What I tested was Crucible of Worlds and Horizon Canopy.  It works pretty good, a mana source that later turns into a draw engine or you can at least cycle them.  Having extra lands really ensures you don’t succumb to your own Sphere effects which is a MUD fail.

Thanks for reading,
Mike

Your list is close to correct, but I disagree with some specific points about streamlining the deck into a well-oiled machine. First off, since you don't have Welder or Bombs (Tinker, Balance, Ancestral, etc.) you need more of a 4-of approach than you're sporting.

Secondly, I really disagree with including Smokestack. Smokestack has always struck me as a card that bats clean-up (and does it well) in Welder builds that need a finisher. This deck needs no finisher because that's really all it is: a bunch of efficient beaters.

Thirdly, I don't think the use of Sensei's Top is warranted as you don't really have a way to abuse it without Shuffle effects & Welders. It is underwhelming in this deck and is susceptible to Null Rod. I'd cut it in a heartbeat. I think SoFI is infinitely better for this deck and I'd always run 4. Here's my current working list for the deck.

MUD

Land (17):
4 Mishra’s Workshop
3 Mishra’s Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (31):
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Memory Jar
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sword Of Fire And Ice
1 Trinisphere

Artifact Creatures (12):
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Triskelion

SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Duplicant
4 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Staff Of Domination/ Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale?

[MaxxMatt]

Click here and look at the aggroMUD list I proposed for 2010.
It is not a problem to peek at list because it is in English while the text is in Italian.

Rolling $tone$ 2010

While the first list is not streamlined, the last two ones are far better.
The name is just an emphatization of the higher number of Resistors' effects added in it.

I'm sure, more control devoted list will benefit of full set of Karns/Smokestacks but the one I proposed is completely devoted to quick beatdown in order to capitalize to his maximum the edge multiple Resistors gave to us.

Chalices, TangleWire are here only for shutting up Tinker, DSC, Inkwell and all the other "inevitabilities"
A lot of low cc beaters and Trisk+Karn to apply some board control.

Maindeck Duplicant/STitan would have been perfect but with a lower cc.
Triskelions are a necessary evil because of Confidant, Welder, Qasali & Weenies in general
Karn will shut up their board development, block almost anything and kill opponents with your entire board in the last attack phase

CoWs are slow as old tortoises, but they are necessary because of a so much fragile mana base and so many resistors.
Indeed, the entire deck's clock is as speedy as you can think. Two Juggys and some cheap resistors will kill opponents in two full turns. Really fast for a mindless deck.

Sideboard is entirely dedicated to Oath and Ichorid, deck's worst enemy. I really like the global redundancy MUD has: it is his only real great strength.
I wil not diluite this raw power putting some strong 1of or 2of maindeck: you'll draw them unfrequently and without the ability to tutor for them.

ROLLING $TONE$ 2010

(9)
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Ametyst
1 Trinisphere

(11)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds

(14)
4 Juggernaut
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Triskelion
3 Karn, the GuitarHero Golem

(26)
9 Mana Accelerants
4 Mishra Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip

(15) Sideboard
4 Eon Hub / Duplicant
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Relic of Progenius
3 Razormane Manticore

ROLLING $TONE$ 2010

(9)
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Ametyst
1 Trinisphere

(12)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire

(12)
4 Juggernaut
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Triskelion

(27)
10 Mana Accelerants
4 Mishra Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip


(15) Sideboard#2
3 Eon Hub
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Relic of Progenius
3 Razormane Manticore
3 Karn, the FrigginGoodOld Golem

[BruiZar]

I've no idea what Eldrazi spells are, but this could be sort of nice with metal worker:

Eye of Ugin
Legendary Land   
Colorless Eldrazi spells cost  less to cast.
7, T: Search your library for a colorless creature card, reveal it and put it in your hand. Then shuffle your library.
Illus. James Paick #136/145   

[madmanmike25]

I'm glad you all have lists, thats cool.

Your list is close to correct, but I disagree with some specific points about streamlining the deck into a well-oiled machine. First off, since you don't have Welder or Bombs (Tinker, Balance, Ancestral, etc.) you need more of a 4-of approach than you're sporting.

And your list is correct?  I'll have to disagree, because my list has already proven successful.  It's gotten me 1st, 3rd, and split 1st/2nd.  Mind you that was with Juggs.  You don't see 4-of's in my list????  I don't run 4 Karn since he is a legend.  I dont run more than 2 Tops because its similar in the fact that you only want to see one.  Trinisphere.....well thats restricted.  There are different ways to build and I really doubt you can say my list is not "correct" since I have been winning with it.  Thats like me saying your list is incorrect since you are MUD and you don't run Karn...  The fact that you DONT run Karn tells me about your experience with MUD.  MUD without Karn is kinda fail in my opinion.

Secondly, I really disagree with including Smokestack. Smokestack has always struck me as a card that bats clean-up (and does it well) in Welder builds that need a finisher. This deck needs no finisher because that's really all it is: a bunch of efficient beaters.

You seriously underestimate Smokestack.  Is Smokestack a finisher when you are in a losing situation and have to amp to reset the board?  Can another creature do that?  I have won more games when resolving Smokestack than I have lost.  I've used Tangle and Smoke to get rid of Ink and Colossus.  Smoke also gets rid of Oath and helps you sack Orchard tokens.  It adds another dimension to the deck and can also remove a Null Rod.  I'm not saying you have to have it, but saying that I don't is crazy.  I need this card.  It makes my opponents scoop and makes me happy.

Thirdly, I don't think the use of Sensei's Top is warranted as you don't really have a way to abuse it without Shuffle effects & Welders. It is underwhelming in this deck and is susceptible to Null Rod. I'd cut it in a heartbeat. I think SoFI is infinitely better for this deck and I'd always run 4. Here's my current working list for the deck.

Very odd you complain about two Tops being hurt by Rod and want to play with four Swords.  Do the math.  Swords needs 5 mana (more with Spheres) and an attacking creature.  Top needs 2 mana.  Again if you really played MUD you would know that card quality is important and Top helps that.  Since its cheap I can usually cast Top and a lockpiece the same turn.  I wouldnt play Sword over another lock.  While it's good to run Swords and Factories, I'm pretty sure that 4 is too much since the card does absolutely NOTHING on its own.  Would you lead the game with a 1st turn Swords?  I would lead a game with 1st turn Smokestack.  Who do you think would win?

Also you dont have to like City of Traitors but I feel they are a necessary evil.  Two is fine to run and they lead to more explosive early plays.

Again, I thank you for the critiques just keep in mind my list is not theory so there is a reason for the cards I run.  I didn't just randomly post this list, there's a lot of testing with results in there.

@ Dorsal
I would try you list without Ravagers and you could add the 2nd Crucible and 2nd Staff.  Ravager really isn't needed to combo with Trike as Hex illustrated.  If you are going off, 4 Trikes, a resolved Karn, Chalice at everything, and all your Spheres in play and infinite life should do the trick.  The Ravager Trike combo is just a cool trick.

@Maxx
What is the reasoning behind not running Metalworker?  If I play him turn 1 he usually gets FoW'ed acting as bait, if he resolves I have an insane turn 2.  I've always said he is similar in function to Crucible.  The difference is that Crucible doesn't do anything until a land is in your graveyard and you arent even running Smokestack.  If you are worried about getting mana against Wasteland, Metalworker does the trick just fine.  Playing him allows more creatures for a couple of Swords which would be good in your deck because you have absolutely no card draw.  That's not going to cut it because eventually you will stall.


EDIT:  It seems really odd that people don't like the permanent removal that Smokestack provides and yet play with Tanglewires, a card that merely taps them and gets worse over time.  When you play with both, its like magic.

[Neonico]

My actual aggressive test list is the following :

4 Metalworker
3 Razormane Masticore
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Juggernaut
2 Duppliquant
2 thorn of amethyst
3 Null Rod
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Mishas Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine
1 Sol Ring
5 moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

More Comboish list :

4 Metalworker
3 Triskelion
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Juggernaut
2 karn Silver Golem
3 Arcbound Ravager
3 Staff of Domination
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Mishas Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine
1 Sol Ring
5 moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault


SB
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Jesters Cap
3 Bottle Cloister
3 Duppliquant


MonoU build :
4 Esperzoa
3 Master of Etherium
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Triskelion
2 Karn, Silver Golem
1 ancestral Recall
1 time walk
1 Tinker
1 thirst for Knowledge
2 thorn of amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Mishas Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
5 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine
1 Sol Ring
5 moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

[TheShop]

I'm glad you all have lists, thats cool.

Your list is close to correct, but I disagree with some specific points about streamlining the deck into a well-oiled machine. First off, since you don't have Welder or Bombs (Tinker, Balance, Ancestral, etc.) you need more of a 4-of approach than you're sporting.

And your list is correct?  I'll have to disagree, because my list has already proven successful.  It's gotten me 1st, 3rd, and split 1st/2nd.  Mind you that was with Juggs.  You don't see 4-of's in my list????  I don't run 4 Karn since he is a legend.  I dont run more than 2 Tops because its similar in the fact that you only want to see one.  Trinisphere.....well thats restricted.  There are different ways to build and I really doubt you can say my list is not "correct" since I have been winning with it.  Thats like me saying your list is incorrect since you are MUD and you don't run Karn...  The fact that you DONT run Karn tells me about your experience with MUD.  MUD without Karn is kinda fail in my opinion.

Secondly, I really disagree with including Smokestack. Smokestack has always struck me as a card that bats clean-up (and does it well) in Welder builds that need a finisher. This deck needs no finisher because that's really all it is: a bunch of efficient beaters.

You seriously underestimate Smokestack.  Is Smokestack a finisher when you are in a losing situation and have to amp to reset the board?  Can another creature do that?  I have won more games when resolving Smokestack than I have lost.  I've used Tangle and Smoke to get rid of Ink and Colossus.  Smoke also gets rid of Oath and helps you sack Orchard tokens.  It adds another dimension to the deck and can also remove a Null Rod.  I'm not saying you have to have it, but saying that I don't is crazy.  I need this card.  It makes my opponents scoop and makes me happy.

Thirdly, I don't think the use of Sensei's Top is warranted as you don't really have a way to abuse it without Shuffle effects & Welders. It is underwhelming in this deck and is susceptible to Null Rod. I'd cut it in a heartbeat. I think SoFI is infinitely better for this deck and I'd always run 4. Here's my current working list for the deck.

Very odd you complain about two Tops being hurt by Rod and want to play with four Swords.  Do the math.  Swords needs 5 mana (more with Spheres) and an attacking creature.  Top needs 2 mana.  Again if you really played MUD you would know that card quality is important and Top helps that.  Since its cheap I can usually cast Top and a lockpiece the same turn.  I wouldnt play Sword over another lock.  While it's good to run Swords and Factories, I'm pretty sure that 4 is too much since the card does absolutely NOTHING on its own.  Would you lead the game with a 1st turn Swords?  I would lead a game with 1st turn Smokestack.  Who do you think would win?

Also you dont have to like City of Traitors but I feel they are a necessary evil.  Two is fine to run and they lead to more explosive early plays.

Again, I thank you for the critiques just keep in mind my list is not theory so there is a reason for the cards I run.  I didn't just randomly post this list, there's a lot of testing with results in there.

@ Dorsal
I would try you list without Ravagers and you could add the 2nd Crucible and 2nd Staff.  Ravager really isn't needed to combo with Trike as Hex illustrated.  If you are going off, 4 Trikes, a resolved Karn, Chalice at everything, and all your Spheres in play and infinite life should do the trick.  The Ravager Trike combo is just a cool trick.

@Maxx
What is the reasoning behind not running Metalworker?  If I play him turn 1 he usually gets FoW'ed acting as bait, if he resolves I have an insane turn 2.  I've always said he is similar in function to Crucible.  The difference is that Crucible doesn't do anything until a land is in your graveyard and you arent even running Smokestack.  If you are worried about getting mana against Wasteland, Metalworker does the trick just fine.  Playing him allows more creatures for a couple of Swords which would be good in your deck because you have absolutely no card draw.  That's not going to cut it because eventually you will stall.


EDIT:  It seems really odd that people don't like the permanent removal that Smokestack provides and yet play with Tanglewires, a card that merely taps them and gets worse over time.  When you play with both, its like magic.

I will never understand cutting smokestack either.  For all of the things I have dropped and added, smokestack will NEVER come out.  No legitimate reason exists to take out your board destruction. 

In fact, I am waiting on this to eventually be printed:
3cc
artifact
text: at the beginning of each players upkeep, that player sacrifices a permanent.

[Darkenslight]

If you're playing a monobrown combo-ish list, would you ever consider Well of Knowledge?  After all, each artifact revealed by Metalworker can be turned into a card, but only during your draw step.  The only issue that I can see is that it's a symmetrical effect.

[TheShop]

Shop Combo lists before the errata and restriction of Time Vault considered this.  I am not sure I like the idea of allowing the opponent to draw extra cards.  The only reason those lists got away with it was because they had the following ways to win:

4 Rings of Brighthearth
4 Time Vault
4 Metalworker
4 Staff of Domination
4 Umbral Mantle

+ the Basalt Monolith + Staff/Karn/Well

They had a high enough density of combo win conditions that even if they did not use the Well to draw up the entire deck, they win before the enemy draw was relevant.  Thrumming Stone with Sensei's top seemed to die a similar death when the Vault part of the deck went away.

Shop Combo is a different animal from MUD and can afford to take a few more risks.

[sorcutt]

If you're looking for a substitution for Tops + SOFI the you should consider Serum Powders.  They provide virtual card draw.  The most critical part of any stax game is almost always the opening hand.  You need to put constant pressure on your opponent in order to lock him/her out of the game.  Serum Powder prevents you from mulliganing to oblivion.  If stax has a strong enough starting hand, it's usually enough to lock your opponent out of the game.  In every stax game I've ever played, as long as I have at least 2 threats + supporting mana in my opening hand, I'm completely fine without having a draw engine in the deck and playing draw->go.  Serum Powder definitely enables you to do this.

[Purple Hat]

why don't people use bottled cloister as draw in these decks?  is it just too expensive as a 4 cost?  you're not packing any instants and it completely protects you from duress on your lock parts.

EDIT: I guess you lose to trigger on the stack hurkyls, but I think you probably lose to hurkyls anyway, and unlike grafted skullcap you still get your stack and wire triggers.

[MirariKnight]

why don't people use bottled cloister as draw in these decks?  is it just too expensive as a 4 cost?  you're not packing any instants and it completely protects you from duress on your lock parts.

EDIT: I guess you lose to trigger on the stack hurkyls, but I think you probably lose to hurkyls anyway, and unlike grafted skullcap you still get your stack and wire triggers.

I'm testing a list with Bottled Cloister in it right now. It seems really good, much better than SoFI and/or Top. It's worse than Jar, but Jar is a card not an engine.
If they are resolving Hurkyl's/Rebuild against with this deck, you're pretty screwed anyway. That's obviously a worst case scenario but you pretty much lose if the opponent can cast something like that anyway.

[Neonico]

Same as mirari knight for me.

The card has proven really strong to me. The deck is really capable to have no cards or 1 land left in hand on turn 3, so bottle cloister is perfect, as even a bounce spell is not that often a problem.

I tested until now with 3 in SB, I'm actually playing 2 maindeck and 2 sideboard in my staffless version.

Just a note : i tend to minimize as much as possible the number of cards in my deck with activated abilities, because of null rod. That's why i dont play Memory jarr nor Staff of domination in my actual lists.

[madmanmike25]

The problem with Serum Powders is that drawing them sucks.  Bad.  I would say these types of decks mulligan less (from my experience) than others so I doubt Serum Powder is needed.

The reason I would personally still play Top over Cloister is that I can draw immediately for the low cost of 2 mana after seeing my top 3.  Giving u quality and a card in hand with the knowledge of whats coming next seems good to me.  Another reason is that I have actually gone mox ->Top and had it countered, meaning my Sphere and/or Chalice will resolve.  Even if not countered, 3 mana for Top then Sphere is a pretty good start imo.  Kinda funny if you compare Cloister to Smoke in terms of when they actually do something...only thing is one of them can be amped and will lead to more game wins.  But Cloister is still a very viable option by all means.  Test away, just be careful not to decrease your threat density too much.

And yeah, it sucks the big one if they can Hurks.  However, I've played enough games where the opponent HAD to Hurks on their upkeep in response to Tangles and Smoke just to buy some time.  If they can't counter your threats when you lay them down again you are still alright.

Neonico, if you really have that few cards in hand then you should test Mindstorm Crown.

[Neonico]

That's a nice suggestion, but if i tend to really empty my hand very fast, i also smoetimes have few cards in hands that i cannot use (like lands or things like that) so bottle cloister is not really that risky.

[MirariKnight]

That's a nice suggestion, but if i tend to really empty my hand very fast, i also smoetimes have few cards in hands that i cannot use (like lands or things like that) so bottle cloister is not really that risky.

The problem is if they Hurkyl's you in response to the "RFG your hand" trigger. Then your whole board goes back to your hand, and then gets exiled. Unfortunately, it never comes back because the Cloister is gone.

[nineisnoone]

I’m creating this thread to discuss MUD decks that will now contain Lodestone Golem.  I am posting my list because it has performed well even though it had Juggernauts.  This is not for any red or hybrid shop builds, those decks should be discussed in another thread if you don’t mind.  They probably should, because I can see this guy being a beast in Vintage.  Let's keep this discussion colorless.

Why MUD?  Glad you asked.  MUD can generate insane amounts of colorless mana very quickly.  With that mana you can lock your opponent out of the game or smash them to bits with big robots.   I like decks that can do both, because sometimes you need a Plan B.  The build I would like to discuss is versatile and even has resilience to Null Rod.  Builds that do not include Smokestack are a mistake in my opinion as it has performed so well and flat out won games for me.  On to the list;

MAD MUD 2010
Creatures: 14
4 Metalworker
4 Triskelion
4 Lodestone Golem (was Juggernaut)
2 Karn

Metal: 21
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Sword of Fire and Ice(I am cutting these since seeing less red)
1 Trinisphere

Mana+lands: 25
4 Mishas Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

SB(build for your meta, here’s what I am currently running)
2 Staff of Domination
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Jesters Cap
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Null Rod

So far Crypt, Vault, and yes, even Black Lotus have all been good.  The times I have died to Crypt I was losing anyway so it was moot.  Some are debating whether or not to include Lotus and I find that baffling.
Sword of Fire and Ice has been useful to varying degrees.  It turns your little 1/2 Welder into a Goblin killing machine that draws cards.  That being said, I may just up the land count by 2.

Top has been pretty damn good.   MUD has no cheap ‘draw’ and this helps quite a bit.  You can do tricks with it when you have metalworker in play to dig for another artifact in your hand and draw it netting you 1 mana.   Cool trick #1:
1.    Activate Top to see top 3
2.   In response, Tap and put draw on stack
3.   In response activate Top to see Top 3
It resolves in reverse order so you will get to see 3 cards, then draw(putting  top back in your library) then look at top 3 cards again and you can place top where u like.  I do that if I see 2 good cards I want without having to wait a turn by drawing Top again.  Other decks don’t do this because of shuffle effects that would lose Top.  The day they make a fetchland for Mishras Workshop my brain will explode…

Sphere is better in this deck because I want Welders and Confidants to cost more too.  Sphere hits everything.

Karn is great.  I’m sticking with only 2 because it’s Legendary and I want to see one but don’t need to see one.  If you love him, put in 3 by all means.  I used to run 2-3 Trikes as well and was sold on 4 when I saw how useful they really are.  Trike kills many creatures besides the obvious Welders, Confidants, and Ichorids.  Even though the combat damage on the stack was changed it’s a good card for MUD.   Is that opponent’s Time Vault or Key getting you down?  Cool Trick#2:
1.    Use Karn to animate troublesome 3cc or less artifact.
2.   Use Trike to kill said troublesome artifact.
Some people were really surprised when I did this.  They thought Karn’s diet only consisted of Moxen.

Well, that’s my list.  Feel free to ask questions or critique it.  I wanted to keep this short because there are many ways to go, this is just one of them.  Also feel free to post other MUD (again no colors please) lists here.  I’m sure someone will have success with an Aggro list containing 9 Spheres and 4 Lodestones.  Share.

To help really generate some good MUD discussion, I’ll share some tech I have been working on to address a big problem with MUD; a lack of a good draw engine.  What I tested was Crucible of Worlds and Horizon Canopy.  It works pretty good, a mana source that later turns into a draw engine or you can at least cycle them.  Having extra lands really ensures you don’t succumb to your own Sphere effects which is a MUD fail.

Thanks for reading,
Mike

Nice build.  My thoughts/questions:

1) Why no Memory Jar?  To me it's just an auto-include.

2) How has Crucible of Worlds + Horizon Canopy tested for you?  I've tried it, and it seemed kinda slow for me.  Canopy just isn't a good enough draw on it's own to justify the combo.

3) No Crucible?  Especially running the 2 City of Traitors, it's not a bad idea.

4) Karn is great.  I've never understood why he's not a Workshop staple.  I'm of the opinion that he should be a 4x in many Workshop build.
Cool trick #3.  : Target your own Smokestack, Sphere, etc. etc.  Attack with Karn and your newly minted army for a boatload of damage.  Karn doesn't only eat Moxen, but he turns your non-creature artifacts into an army. 

5) Not really for your build (no Crucible) but just curious on if you've generically tried out Expedition Map.  It pays for itself getting a Workshop, and gets the hallowed Strip Mine in a MUD + Crucible build. 

[madmanmike25]

Very good points.

1) Why no Memory Jar?  To me it's just an auto-include.

I was previously enamored with Sword, but for the same cost (3+2) Jar is just superior.  It's going in for sure.

2) How has Crucible of Worlds + Horizon Canopy tested for you?  I've tried it, and it seemed kinda slow for me.  Canopy just isn't a good enough draw on it's own to justify the combo.

Yeah it is slow, but that's kind of the point.  You aren't trying to establish an early draw engine, you are trying to lock out your opponent or swing for lethal.  In my MUD lists with Null Rod it worked the best.  Besides, the Canopy draw engine is 100% reliant on....

3) No Crucible?  Especially running the 2 City of Traitors, it's not a bad idea.

You would be really surprised how irrelevant Crucible is most games.  Yes, even with Smokestack it's not really needed since we have 4 Metalworker and 60 permanents.  Crucible is a great SB card vs the Shop matchup or against [4xWasteland+4xNull Rod].dec.  Crucible can be a great card....or it can just do nothing until a land goes in the grave.  This can happen quite often as opponents typically fetch basics making the Wastelock a tad slow.

4) Karn is great.  I've never understood why he's not a Workshop staple.  I'm of the opinion that he should be a 4x in many Workshop build.
Cool trick #3.  : Target your own Smokestack, Sphere, etc. etc.  Attack with Karn and your newly minted army for a boatload of damage.  Karn doesn't only eat Moxen, but he turns your non-creature artifacts into an army.

I've tried that route, and 4 is just too (two?) many.  I feel that Karn is more of a "closer" than Smokestack.  My list is tight, otherwise I would run a 3rd...

5) Not really for your build (no Crucible) but just curious on if you've generically tried out Expedition Map.  It pays for itself getting a Workshop, and gets the hallowed Strip Mine in a MUD + Crucible build. 

Oh, it is good.  The problem arises that you already run 4 Metalworker and you would want minimum 3 Crucibles, possibly 4.  Crucible and Metalworker in play are pretty redundant especially if you dont even find Expedition Map.  I tested 2 of them btw.  Like I said, MUD lists get pretty tight so it's hard to take out an actual lockpiece for a potential lockpiece.  You have to ask yourself what you would cut, and that gets pretty difficult especially with the printing of Lodestone Golem, a card that just might become a 4x staple in MUD.

Thanks for your participation.  Out of curiosity, what would your 4 Karn list look like?  I'd strongly advise not cutting any Triskelions.

[MirariKnight]

I think Expedition Map is pretty bad. This deck is about consistently Time Walking your opponent, and if you're spending your turn finding a Strip/Shop then you're letting them Time Walk you.
I would never cut Trikes if I was adding more Karns, pinging off Voltaic Keys and Time Vaults is way too good.

I apologize in advance, I'm feeling really out of it and tired today so this is going to be incredibly disorganized and poorly written, but I'll try:

I really like the original list, but I feel like there are a few issues with it after doing some testing. First a few minor things: I really think SoFI is terrible, and I don't like Top either but I can understand why you'd run it.
My main concerns are:
1. I agree that Smokestack is necessary for the deck, but this deck isn't like Stax where you can ramp it to infinity and clear the board, then start again. In my (admittedly limited) experience, you rarely ramp Stack past 1. This deck is about consistent Time Walks vs. the opponent; you keep them just out of range of casting anything and those extra turns you buy are worth minimum 5 damage + another lock piece, generally. Ramping Stack past that hurts me as much as them. So, I cut the 2 SoFIs + Top for 3 Crucibles to sustain the Smokestack. I can understand how it does nothing a lot of the time, but it just seems like such an integral card to this type of strategy.

2. Why not run all the Sphere effects? I feel like I want to see as many as possible, since only Sphere itself really effects me much. I don't know what I'd cut, but I really want a way to fit all 8 Spheres + Lodestone in the deck.

3. This might seem contradictory to what I just said, but sometimes I do find myself getting locked out, especially by Chalice. This deck has 2 less lands than most other builds I see (27 mana sources seems standard) so this might be part of the reason, but not being able to drop my Moxen/Crypt/Lotus around my own stuff is sometimes a problem. I do see it as a totally necessary card, it basically stops them from playing anything, ever, especially Hurkyl's, but at the same time it frustrates me. Maybe I'm playing it wrong, but I usually drop it on zero if I can right away, which comes back to haunt me half the time.

Anyway, I'm really excited about playing something like this in the future, so I'll keep this thread updated with what I'm finding.

[MaxxMatt]

I think this is the right place to discuss what can become MUD and how could possibly mutate itself nowdays.

I'm sure Smoke+Tangle+CotV+Karn are staple lock pieces. From time to time I have seen waving in and out Rods, Metalworkers, Resistors and Beaters

All the latter pieces usually go up and down especially in numbers ( more than two or less than two ). Metalworkers and Rods are mutually exclusive, so adding one instantly cut the other.



I found myself reasoning about what this deck can do while locking opponents and time walking him through victory.

Keep in mind MUD, differently from WelderMUD, can't reliably go for "infinite lock".

Even with this "shorter" form of lock, you can easily force opponents to concede games because their board situation is desperate.

Going deeper into this argument about MUD general winning process, you can try to establish a strong long term control made of full set of redundant locking pieces but abusing of a lower number of large beaters or you can animate the game putting a strong short term form of control paired with the pressure a larger number of cheaper beaters.

IMHO, because of the addition of Lodestone Golem, we can create an even stronger version that:
  Put pressure to opponent with a lot of beaters
  Artifact based accelerant will help you dodging your own Resistors
  Without focusing only on "locking", we can end up playing a deck that will "lock while winning" or "lock as much as needed to beat and win"

In my deckbuilding mind, Resistors are THE perfect locking pieces to abuse.
In this thread/build, I would like to discard these lock components because they did nothing during the same turn they enter the battlefield and are far more slower than the other left into the deck:

  Smokestack: Needs 4 mana, it does nothing when resolved, can destroy a permanent during the subsequent turn: too slow for MUD's build I have in mind
  Metalworker: It is cheaper than Smokestack, but it does nothing when resolved and can be killed safely by any cheap removal used by any deck. Any deck who can deal with creatures, artifact or spells in general, can stop it AFTER it being resolved. It can waste too much time.
  Null Rods: They are REALLY the epitome of cheap lock piece with a strong effect: it will prevent you from using Triskelions and Karn, I'm going to use. So I, sadly, have to reject it.

Opponents will use any possible efforts in order to resolve creatures, spells and win against your cheap/strong/quick beaters. Even if you load all your resistors on board, it can be helped by the correct timing and resolve something. With the goal of avoiding him to recover WHILE your beaters putting him on a fast clock, I need both CotVs and Wires. The first ones get rid of quick aggro as much as strong combo decks while the latter will help you survive to opponents Fatties.

The rest of the deck will be Beater and Mana.
You have a strong, new, beater that will lock opponents WHILE beating.
Both Juggernaut and JuggOSphere are perfect because with a better board position they will kill opponents faster than any other staks creatures.
Karn and Triskelions are good answers for almost anything enter the board with a small body or low casting cost. This is an additional form of board control that will give you and additional small edge to adube WHEN beating him down.

This deck, in the end, will try to optimize the strong short edge MUD can achieve soon because of Resistors and Beaters during the early game.
Midgame, instead will be doomed by Karn, Triskelions and the other last locking components.
You can't safely win during the late game, but this deck is not designed to approach and win a game gone so far.

I'm not sure about being able to explain the exclusions and the bynomial strenght of a "beating lock" or a "walking lock".
The list will support my arguments in a clearer way:


(26/27)
4 Mishra' Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3/4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
0/1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

(8/9)
4 Sphere of Resistance
3/4 Thorn of Ametyst
1 Trinisphere

(11)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds

(14)
4 Juggernaut
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Karn, the Silver Golem
3 Triskelion / Duplicant

(15)
4 New Land against Ichorid
4 Metagame slots, but I'm going to fear only Oath and Ichorid a lot with this build
3/4 Duplicant / Triskelion
3 Eon Hub / Other bomb against Oath

  Resistors will slow you down opponents while 8 Juggys started killing opponent
  Karn and Trisk will clear the board and finish opponents both with additional attackers or some final pings
  During the described process, CoW will protect you from autoscrewing and it is a 3/3 with Karn, CotV will stop TPS and ANT as much as Weenies, Wires will help you to slow control decks escaping your lock through bouncers or Tinker for Fatties.



What do you think about it?
I'll hope I covered my previous positions in a more insightful way.



MaxxMatt

[madmanmike25]

1. I agree that Smokestack is necessary for the deck, but this deck isn't like Stax where you can ramp it to infinity and clear the board, then start again. In my (admittedly limited) experience, you rarely ramp Stack past 1.

I have never really had a problem ramping Smoke past 1.  The only problem is if the opponent has a Crucible out, otherwise it hasn’t been an issue from my experience.  Just test more and you will figure out when to up the counters and when to chill at 1.  If the only creature on the table is your Lodestone you don’t really need to worry about keeping mana sources if you will be winning in a few swings.

2. Why not run all the Sphere effects? I feel like I want to see as many as possible, since only Sphere itself really effects me much. I don't know what I'd cut, but I really want a way to fit all 8 Spheres + Lodestone in the deck.

You can run all the Sphere effects and it should be ok.  Just don’t cut any Tangles.  I know what you are thinking though, “I’ll cut Smokestack”.  All I will say is that Smokestack can do a whole lot more.  Remember, you aren’t always in a winning situation.  If your opponent hits their land drop and resolves that Oath or Tinker your extra Sphere effects won’t help whereas with Smokestack you at least have a chance.  Look at it like this:  Both Sphere and Smokestack are good when you are winning, but only one is good (or at least clearly better) when you are in a losing situation.

3. RE: Chalice

Setting Chalice takes some skill and knowledge.  If I’m on the play against opponent playing unknown.dec, I’ll pretty much always drop Chalice at 0 after laying my moxen.  Sometimes this draws a counter so I can lay a land and play a Sphere/Lodestone/Smoke.  While Chalice @ 1 is a good solid play, from my experience Chalice @ 2 is the most powerful since it shuts off Oath, Drain, Confidant, Goyf, Pridemage, Hurks, etc. etc.  Also, you don’t really have to worry about Chalice @ 0 against Fish, so don’t waste it.  It just takes practice, but you will get the hang of how to optimize Chalice.

Anyway, I'm really excited about playing something like this in the future, so I'll keep this thread updated with what I'm finding.

Please do.

@MaxxMatt

Since you are going a dedicated Aggro route, I really hope you see very little Oath because that matchup looks very unfavorable.

Just by looking at your list I have a few suggestions;
1.   Test out Metalworker instead of Crucible.  It really wastes no more time than Crucible and can at least block or ping.  Karn and Trike are expensive, Metalworker really helps.  You are more likely to have 1 or more artifacts in hand than a land in your graveyard.
2.   Run 4 Thorns.  Especially if you try out suggestion #1, since Crucible would cost 4 mana whereas MW still costs 3.  If you have to split, run 3 Spheres and 4 Thorns.  In a dedicated Aggro build Thorn is better.
3.   Duplicant in my testing was never as good as Trike.  With Duplicant you have to wait and like you said, this deck needs to take advantage of the short term.  If your opponent has no creatures a 2/4 for 6 mana is terrible for Aggro.  Put him in the SB.  It is a reactive card and you have no draw or tutor to make sure you get it when you need it.
4.   Running four City of Traitors would be extremely risky, I don’t know if I would even want 3 unless I was trying to power out a MW+Staff combo. 

All in all, I think there is potential for Lodestone to *maybe* replace Smokestack in some builds, but I am extremely skeptical that Juggernaut is better than old Smokey.  I hope your testing goes well, let us know what you find out.

[arkious]

Most MUD builds that I have seen lately run 14 or more creatures. Generally running more than 2 City of Traitors is risky. Instead of running City of Traitors 3-4, have people tried 1-2 Gaea's Cradle. Granted, it is dead on Turn 1 unless you can find alternative mana sources to power out a creature, but after turn 1, you should be able to utilize Gaea's Cradle with increasing mana returns that can help you get past your own resistance from the spheres.

[MirariKnight]

It tested out my latest build tonight against Vroman. He played his Oath deck. Given how Shops are generally weak to Oath, and how I run creatures, I was afraid it would be a bad matchup, but we actually found it to be in favor of the Shop player both pre and post board. Dropping a guy like Lodestone isn't as much of a liability against Oath as I had originally expected, and the deck is unaffected by Iona except that she's hard to block, but also easily raced/locked down.

After playing Oath I played a bunch of games vs. Noble Fish, which is a really, really, really good matchup in my opinion. Unless they had the double Wasteland, Force all your stuff hand, you should win. Your bigger guys come out faster and their mana is actually pretty fragile. Karn + Lodestones and Tangles even raced 2x Goyf on turn 1.

Here's the list I ran tonight:

Mana: 27
4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Crypt
1 Vault
1 Sol Ring

Dudes: 8
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Karn
2 Trike

Lock: 24
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds - there have always been 3, dumb typo last night

Other: 1
1 Memory Jar

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Duplicant
4 Jester's Cap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt

Observations:

-Smokestack is absolutely critical to this deck, I am 100% convinced. Everything you (mike) have said about it is true, it is really the only way to win from behind. Smoke+Tangle lock gets you back into games where you were on the draw, the had something broken, or when you had your stuff countered, etc.

-This deck mulligans even more than Shops usually do. If you don't have a hand with at least 4 mana turn 2, you should probably send it back. This is because almost every hand will have some type of Sphere effect.

-Memory Jar sucks. It should definitely just be another Trike/Crucible or something. Occasionally it's good, I guess, but the best uses I found for it are: milling Oath/Dredge and swinging for 5 with Karn. Not super hot. I don't think you really need a draw engine, since the deck creates so much virtual CA in non-drawing ways.

-Mishra's Factory is awesome. I'm so used to playing it as a 1 of in decks, but with 4 they swarm so nicely, and get right under your own spheres. Also infinite blocking on the ground with Crucible.

-Crucible is really good. What MaxxMatt said about it doing something immediate is very true. I don't know what I would cut for Metalworker and I don't really think I even really need him. Sometimes, it would be nice, but other times, it would be totally useless. Waste lock is so potent with all the Sphere effects as well.

- Lodestone doesn't get countered by Spell Pierce, which is HUGE

-This deck probably needs 1 more 2 mana land. Is there anything that doesn't suck as bad a City of Traitors/Crystal Vein, and is guaranteed to actually work unlike Gaea's Cradle?

[Bill Copes]

2x city of traitors is probably a necessary evil. If you cut memory jar for the 3rd crucible, you should alieviate some of the disadvantage of city.

Do you find all 13 spheres to be necessary?

[BruiZar]

That's a nice suggestion, but if i tend to really empty my hand very fast, i also smoetimes have few cards in hands that i cannot use (like lands or things like that) so bottle cloister is not really that risky.

The problem is if they Hurkyl's you in response to the "RFG your hand" trigger. Then your whole board goes back to your hand, and then gets exiled. Unfortunately, it never comes back because the Cloister is gone.

On the other hand, once H.Recall or rebuild resolves, you are most likely dead anyway

[Neonico]

I just don't get it. Why play some prison cards in an aggro deck ?
With my experience with MUD, i found that crucible is only necessary against other workshop decks and Fish decks. So, i can consider board in smokestacks as well in those matchups, but i don't want those 2 cards against any other mathup.

The strategy of the deck remains the same : dropping a fatty that can win you the game while your lock piece bother the opponnent enough to avoid him from winning the game. Smokestack is to slow to do that.

The missing slot in Mirari's list is definatly juggys in all the slot he want to remove from his maindeck. And I still don't understand how you can want 4 mana on turn 2 on a consistant basis, even considering adding some lands to the deck, and still playing Black Lotus.

[madmanmike25]

I just don't get it. Why play some prison cards in an aggro deck ?

Really?

4 Sphere, 4 Lodestone, 4 Thorn, 1 Trinisphere, 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Tangle Wire, 2-4 Crucible of Worlds, 4 Wasteland, 1 Strip Mine

Thats 29 cards if you put Crucible at 3.  That's almost half of some of these decklists!

I really don't think you do get it.  You ALREADY play with lock components.  Those are ALL prison components that are necessary for the deck to compete in Vintage, without them you might as well run Frogmites and Myr Enforcer and play a true aggro deck.

I will agree with you about Crucible in the sb, so far thats where I have been preferring it.  The main reason I say that is because of those damn fetchlands that get 2-3 basics.  But honestly I think you want either MW or Crucible maindeck in MUD.  It's hard to imagine a competitive deck without either of those cards in mono brown.

@ Mirari

Smokestack is absolutely critical to this deck, I am not 100% convinced. Everything you (mike) have said about it is true, it is really the only way to win from behind. Smoke+Tangle lock gets you back into games where you were on the draw, the had something broken, or when you had your stuff countered, etc.

Am I misinterpreting this?  Are you saying that you aren't 100% sure about running Smokestack, and then you explain how good it is.  Could you clarify this for me please?  Would you have preferred Juggernauts in that slot instead?

This deck mulligans even more than Shops usually do. If you don't have a hand with at least 4 mana turn 2, you should probably send it back. This is because almost every hand will have some type of Sphere effect.

I'm going to guess that not running City of Traitors is giving you mulligan issues because that hasn't happened to me.  Do you really want to see Mishras Factory that early?  Could you try running a split of 2 City/2 Factories?

Also, could you please tell me or find out how many basics Vroman was running in his Oath list?  Lists always change and the basic land count may have influence on how good Crucible performed for you.  I notice you don't run 4 Trikes, and I'm guessing thats because you don't run Metalworker.  I know Trike isn't really good against Oath but its a beast against Fish, even if they have Null Rod because it's still a 4/4.  RGF'ing Bridge from Below is nice too vs Ichorid.

It's good to hear that Lodestone was at least decent vs Oath.  Did you ever sb them out?  I trust you put your Caps in post board.

If you don't have an exact count, could you guesstimate the percentage of match wins against both Fish and Oath?

Thanks for sharing your results with us,
Mike