[Eastman's Deck] My Remora Vault deck/blog

[Eastman]

Help me build my deck.  It's an internet-era approach (and something that used to be very common on TMD long ago): I will always keep here the up-to-date list of the vault/key deck I have sleeved up.  I will post changes as I make them, and try to explain why.  I hope that you will make suggestions and also challenge my logic when I make changes.  Please just follow one simple rule: suggest/debate cards or changes, but please don't just copy/paste your own deck without explaining the comparison.  

The goal of this is to generate good discussion about the card choices themselves.

As for the archetype, I want to experiment with Mystic Remora in a blue-based vault/key deck.  Why?  I think it is the most efficient and powerful non-restricted spell against TPS and Tezz, and I think it is strong against Workshops on the play.  Only on the play though.  Thus the only change I will never make (in this thread anyway) is running less than 3 mystic remora.

A first premise I am using for this initial version is that very cheap spells (that can be cast under remora) and very aggressive spells (because it is painful for an opponent to cast counters into remora) are strong with Remora. Thus lately I have been using cards like Timetwister.  


On to the deck:

8 Draw
4 Mystic Remora
3 Dark Confidant (feeds lands to an early remora and makes waiting it out painful for opponent, should it be 4?)
1 Sensei's Top ? (to smooth draws and conserve life under confidant. Not running two because getting two blows?)


10 Restricted
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor (cheap, aggressive)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ponder ? (is this strong enough)
1 Mystical Tutor (cheap, aggressive- can mystical for FoW in response to remora trigger and get a much needed counter)
1 Merchant Scroll ?
1 Timetwister (does the synergy between remora and draw 7's justify this? the synergy because your opponent pays a penalty if they quickly play the 7 they net)  should I add Wheel if I keep red?  

11 Counter package
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection (to mystical or vamp for against Ancestral, but should there be more of these to prevent the win-through?)
3 Spell Pierce (why not 4?  tight squeeze)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

4 Bounce
1 Echoing Truth (this can bounce remora or better yet sensei's top so as to cycle)
2 Repeal (bounce remora, top)
1 Rebuild (with e. truth and repeal, chalice almost always bounceable)

4 Kill
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key (should this be 2? it would double 'oops I win' occurrences, and help generate mana to feed remora, etc. in concert
with manavault/sol ring/crypt.  Plus it draws cards with sensei's top)  
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind (I prefer this in games that I can protect it to anything else, and I think all of the other games
are a wash when you add up the various potential situations)
1 Tinker


23 Sources
6 Fetchlands
3 U. Sea
2 Volcanic or Tropical
3 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Sol ring
1 Mana Crypt







Current major questions:

1.  What should be the tertiary color?  Green for nature's claim or Red for wheel/ingot chewer/reb?  
2.  Should a Tendrils kill package be included (something like lotus petal, dark ritual, hurkyl's recall, tendrils of agony)
3.  What is the right number of maindeck bounce, and which pieces should I run?
4.  Is this the right manabase, both with respect to particular cards and with respect to number? Petal and vault?  24?
5.  Should I be doing Jace or Tezz and the like?  I'm not because they are expensive and I want cheap threats that I can play under remora.  
6.  What do I do for the board?  I would like to compare the red and green sideboard packages and break them down matchup by matchup.  



Card-for-card, what changes would you guys suggest?  Again, specific suggestions for changes welcomed.  

[A_Outcast]

I think the sideboard splash should be dependant on the meta. I think the red vs green sideboard should be based on a mix of personal preference and meta.  Red you get Extra counters, better artifact destruction and g.gargadon to combat oath.  In green the artifact destruction is cheaper and also hits enchantments and you get goyf.  Green's sideboard cards can help against multiple decks by covering a greater % of the field. (Goyf can do double duty against aggroe and control, natures claim hits both stax and oath, ext.), wereas red's hate is more effective but doesnt work double duty (for the most part).  So I would go with green if your meta is more balanced, and use red if you expect to come up against XYZ deck a lot.

The issue I have with twister is you could twister them from a bad position into a winning position.  While its not going to happen every time is there a card that you could put in there that would be equally as effective that cant help their position?  Could FoF be better in this slot?  It generates CA (most of the time) while it helps build up to will.  Also switching twister to FoF would help make merchant scroll slightly better by increasing the number of fetchable targets.

If I would include a storm package, I would use red as my side color and instead of running tendrils run Empty the Warrens.  It's single color ( ), is better against stax (fuel for smokestacks), and if you storm for 5 on t1 thats a 3 turn clock, whereas with tendrils you have to aim for as close to the 20 as you can or else they can easily recover.  As for whether or not it should be ran, I think its possible but not optimal.

[Cyberpunker]

I'm not an expert at Remora Tezz but I think in the current Meta, Green should be the third color because of how versatile Nature's Claim is. You can destroy Oath, MUD's artifacts, and the opponent's Time Vault.

And Tarmogoyf plus Trygon Predator are great cards to combat Selkie and MUD too. MUD has a hard time handling Tarmogoyf besides Duplicant and Trygon Predator can devastate them if he gets online.

I'm not a big fan of running too many bounce maindeck but I think Repeals are better than Echoing Truth because of the Draw ability. And also, I think Jace  is very good in this deck because of the alternate win condition it provides along with a must counter card. Some people I know would suggest Tendrils too, but I have no experience with Drain Tendrils so I cannot tell you exactly why.

I really like Ponder because it is great in "clutch" situations. It's cheap and can get you access to the top 3 cards in a pinch. And it can shuffle your deck and help you win the topdeck wars that so often define Vintage.

Gargadon is interesting versus Oath but I would not rely on it because I just believe Nature's Claim is so much more versatile for your deck. You won't be facing Oath all the time and MUD can be very dangerous since you run a lower mana count.

That is actually my concern, the fact that 23 mana could be so easily disrupted. But that is just me, if it has worked out for you than go ahead by all means.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

1&6. I agree with kooaznboi that a Green sideboard with Nature’s Claim is preferable.  Against a field of Tezz, Oath, Workshop, Fish, TPS, and Dredge, the following sideboards come to mind for each colour:

Green
4 Nature’s Claim (Oath, Shop, Fish)
4 Leyline of the Void   (Dredge)
2 Yixlid Jailor (Dredge)
2 Hurkyl’s Recall (Shop)
2 Duress (Tezz, TPS, maybe Oath)
1 Forest (Shop, Fish)

Red
4 Leyline (Dredge)
3 Ingot Chewer (Shop, Fish)
3 Gargadon (Oath)
2 Hurkyl’s (Shop)
2 Duress (Tezz, TPS, maybe Oath)
1 Mountain (Shop, Fish)

Since the Green board doubles up against Shop and Oath, you get two extra slots against Dredge, which greatly increases your chance of drawing hate.

Ingot Chewer and Gargadon both have advantages over Claim, but there are disadvantages besides splitting slots.  Chewer’s CMC can be painful with Confidant, especially in long games against Fish and Stax, while Gargadon does not stop Oath from comboing out with Vault/Key.

One thing that I would have liked to have been able to fit in to the boards is a copy of Darkblast to take out Welders and Confidants, but I couldn't find room (I might even want to run one maindeck).  I think that the off-colour basic, in combination with MD 4x Misty or Tarn, is very important against Stax and Fish for being able to reliably cast your sideboard cards against them without allowing them to disrupt your mana base. (It also allows you to cut one of your 2 maindeck off-colour duals for an additional basic or fetchland, which makes you stronger against Wasteland first game)

The weakness of both of these boards is a lack of creature removal against Fish, although this is somewhat mitigated by the large number of cards you have to destroy Null Rod.  As long as you’re able to keep Rod off the table, you should be able to race their creatures.

2. I probably wouldn’t bother including a Tendrils package.  Although I used to play Drain Tendrils and love that style of play, I don’t think you can justify the extra dead slot when your main focus is on Vault/Key.  I’m also unsure what matchups Tendrils would actually improve.

3. The bounce package you’ve posted looks good to me, with diverse CMC and lots of answers to different threats, as well as synergy with your draw engine.

4. I wouldn’t add Petal or Vault unless including Tendrils/ETW.  One-shot mana simply isn’t strong enough to justify the card disadvantage otherwise, especially since it can’t help to maintain Remora.

5. I agree that the planeswalkers are too slow and expensive.

[credmond]

If you go with green, then lorescale coatls become a real interesting possibility. They synergize nicely with a remora style deck.

[Rico Suave]

I am not a big fan of the interaction between Dark Confidant and Mystic Remora.  I feel they are at odds with each other. 

First let's take a look at how Remora detracts from Bob.  With Bob drawing cards each turn, it is actually a fairly big drawback to pay for Remora's upkeep.  What is the point of drawing cards from Bob, if we are always tapped down and unable to play those cards?  This bottlenecks the mana, and leaves us with more cards in hand than we can cast with our available mana.

Second there is also a drawback to Remora when playing Bob.  Remora is very unique in that it is card draw which reacts to the opponent.  As such I find instants to be extremely valuable in combination with Remora.  This is because if the opponent attempts to win through Remora, it is paramount that the Remora player be able to thwart this attempt even if only for a single turn.  Bob is, unfortunately, very poor to draw off Remora when your opponent is chaining a win through the mystical fish.  Even if you manage something like a Repeal on Vault, the Bob is still not going to do anything for you after an untap.

I do appreciate that Bob and Remora provides a lot of density to the deck's draw spells.  Unfortunately, I feel that even when both cards are in play and working perfectly I am lacking flow.  The deck gets clogged, it doesn't have enough mana to cast the cards it draws, and even when it does have mana it will have the wrong spells to cast.  It's disappointing being in a "do something or lose" situation and having your Bob/Remora draw you extra copies of Bob/Remora.  At least other draw like Impulse can dig for something...

With that being said it is quite possible you have differing experiences.  I'll just focus on Remora for the rest of this post.

1) I'm pretty certain green is the best tertiary color.  Nature's Claim is invaluable against Workshops, plus it deals with Oath.  In a world where Dredge takes up so much of our SB space, it is nice having Nature's Claim perform double duty instead of needing a set of Ingot Chewers and a set of Gargadons.  Plus Claim being an instant is valuable in other fringe matches like when facing Helm/Leyline.   

At 3 mana, Trygon Predator is interesting against Workshops.  It certainly seems more game breaking than Rack and Ruin.  Unfortunately, they all cost 3 and I'm pretty certain if Remora Tezz can even get to 3 mana it should be in good shape.  A combination of Nature's Claims and a 2cc removal spell like Seal of Primordium or Naturalize goes well in providing a redundant set of answers to the first few turns a Workshop player can present. 

2) I am a big fan of the storm kill.  It brings so much to the deck.

I wouldn't say that a "package" is required to make it work, but rather certain cards help facilitate this kill.  A card like Timetwister is a great example.  It is something that helps storm out when appropriate, but it is a card that is inherently good and is already in the deck.  Lotus Petal is another such example of a card that I would be running even without Tendrils.  With enough of these type of cards, the Tendrils kill sort of just happens. 

With Tendrils in the deck I place a higher emphasis on Repeal, not only because of its ability to produce storm but also to remove storm-inhibitors such as Null Rod or Chalice.  Also I use Hurkyl's Recall over Rebuild, but that is due partially because I run more copies of Top (less likely H.Recall is dead) and also because I don't feel Rebuild is worthwhile against Workshops. 

3) I'm not certain what is exactly right, but I'm pretty confident Echoing Truth isn't so hot.  I personally would rather run Jace, as not only does it remove most of what E.Truth would remove but it functions quite nicely by itself.

4) I run 25 mana instead of 23.  I run all the same mana you do now, with the exception of a 4th Island in place of the 6th fetch which is minor but my version is very blue heavy (no Bob/Duress).  In addition to these, I run Petal and Library of Alexandria. 

I don't feel Library can replace a colored mana source and should replace a spell instead.  I do enjoy the higher mana count in the deck though for a few reasons:
-I run a few spells at the top end of the curve like Tezz and Jace
-I enjoy having extra mana sources against Workshops
-With Remora I enjoy being able to make land drops

5) One of the biggest concerns I had when testing Jace was this problem you stated.  It is very difficult to play a Remora and still advance one's own game plan because Jace/Tezz are nearly impossible to cast under Remora without resetting it.  I came to the conclusion that Tezz and Jace are pretty good though.  I think one copy of each is valid because if Remora isn't in play you still want a powerful effect, and if Remora is in play you're already in a pretty good spot I think.

Sadly I don't think my plan of playing multiple Jaces in the same deck as Remora has worked out for me, but it is a very intriguing idea for me.  If someone else can get it to work it would be amazing.

6) Already mentioned it before, but I'm a big fan of green.

Overall, I'm not too keen on Duress effects and Remora.  Something strikes me as wrong when I'm making my opponent discard an important spell, instead of letting him play it into my Remora where I can counter it while also hitting his tempo.  How do others feel about this?

I don't feel Ponder is that hot.  I think Ponder is great for decks that want to play 59 cards, but I'm pretty sure this deck is 65 cards being trimmed to 60 and not 55 looking for filler up to 60. 

A lack of TFK isn't surprising, as I've cut it from my build before.  Nevertheless, the card is pretty good and fits this style of deck pretty well.  Is there any reason in particular you excluded it?

Overall I feel as though my version tilts more towards a combo oriented version than a control oriented version.  This is reflected in a number of my card choices, but also in how I play it. 

[Bill Copes]

I'm a huge proponent of the storm package as a secondary win condition.  I've tried both tendrils and warrens in the current New England tournament environment.  Of the two, tendrils has been much stronger with the exception of a couple games that I couldn't find in time to win (with tendrils in hand -- usually against decks that attack the mana base).  Empty the warrens is easily outraced by a lot of the current decks, with the exception of Stax and fish.  Oath just activates twice and makes enough walls to stay alive or kill you in one swing. Ichorid wins before you get a decent empty online.  TPS races it (if you're not doing your job).  You need to storm for around 10 or more to race Sphinx of the Steel Wind.   If you're going to do that, you might as well be running the spell that just wins on the spot.

My current storm package:

4 Repeal
2 Hurkyls Recall
1 Tendrils of Agony


4 Repeal: This is a must, in my opinion.  It's a Swiss army knife:  resets remora, builds storm, cantrips, bounces a threat or lockpiece, DT's with Mystical and Vamp.  For a deck running a ton of artifact acceleration (I run 10 pieces), it's a force-pitchable, colorless dark ritual 1/3 of the time.

2 Hurks: These are in there because with the 10 pieces of jewelry and trinkets, a 2 mana investment turns into X + 2 and adds storm X + 1.  It's this deck's Cabal Ritual.

1 Tendrils:  Because of everything I already said.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

If you are going to run tendrils, then I would play the second top as well, as it turns drawing a useless 2nd top into a storm enabler in a drain mirror where you have both assembled a lot of mana. Also, with 6 fetches, drawing a second top is not really dead, as you can use the second top to draw one of the top three cards and then shuffle the top away with a fetch.

As for the tertiary color, I am not sold that one is necessary. Although it does give you better artifact removal, you have to expose your non basics to wasteland to do so. Playing  lets you build up a stronger mana base and rebuild/hurkyls them. If you can have a line of play of hurkyl's recall you drop remora, the shops opponent will probobly be too far behind to catch up.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I do appreciate that Bob and Remora provides a lot of density to the deck's draw spells.  Unfortunately, I feel that even when both cards are in play and working perfectly I am lacking flow.  The deck gets clogged, it doesn't have enough mana to cast the cards it draws, and even when it does have mana it will have the wrong spells to cast.  It's disappointing being in a "do something or lose" situation and having your Bob/Remora draw you extra copies of Bob/Remora.  At least other draw like Impulse can dig for something...

Would you suggest replacing Bob with an alternative, instant-speed, "chainable" draw package to complement Remora, such as Meditate or Intuition/Ak for example?  If you don't run Bob, how do you plan to ensure hitting land drops to feed the fish, and what stops your opponent from simply waiting it out?

2) I am a big fan of the storm kill.  It brings so much to the deck.

Would you be able to elaborate on how?  In general, I love the Tendrils kill in combo/control, because I find it so elegant, but I am curious as to what matchups it actually improves, and how many games it wins that Vault/Key can't.  I've also loathed drawing Tendrils ever since Brainstorm was restricted.

Lotus Petal is another such example of a card that I would be running even without Tendrils.

I'm not sure I agree.  Outside of decks like Gifts and Drain Tendrils (where it shines when going off with Yawg Will), I've always found Lotus Petal to be somewhat lackluster in control decks, excepting the occasional instance where, on the play, it allows first turn Drain against Stax, for example.  My issue is that I find myself wanting reusable mana sources, and the 1-shot use of 1 mana often doesn't seem worth the card given up.

As for the tertiary color, I am not sold that one is necessary. Although it does give you better artifact removal, you have to expose your non basics to wasteland to do so. Playing   lets you build up a stronger mana base and rebuild/hurkyls them. If you can have a line of play of hurkyl's recall you drop remora, the shops opponent will probobly be too far behind to catch up.

Playing 4x Misty or Tarn allows you to sideboard a basic land of your splash colour, so you don't even need to expose yourself to wasteland.  Therefore, staying U/B does not improve the mana base significantly.  

Unfortunately, the plan of "just rebuild/hurk them" no longer works very well in practice against many workshop builds.  Multiple Spheres, Lodestone Golem, and Tangle Wire make the EOT bounce plan very difficult to carry out.  In my testing I've found that actual artifact destruction is necessary to interact effectively with Workshop decks--counters and bounce simply don't do enough.

Furthermore, the additional hate against Oath and Fish is also very important.  Without efficient answers to Oath and Null Rod, these matchups can be quite difficult.  

So, I think it's clear that you sacrifice very little to run a third colour, and gain a great deal.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

From my experience with playing remora decks:
- sensei's divining top is so good with remora for providing landfall as well as controlling what you draw off remora that I'd consider running 2.
- in tournament play, I often like to have a win condition that wins in the extra turns, which vault-key alone does not do, neither does sphinx. Also, if players try to outwait remora, the sudden, counterproof (more or less) storm kill is often surprising.
- in remora decks, I kind of like having access to empty the warrens, for it is nice with some artifact bounce effect and you don't need to commit too much resources in it. It is also generally awesome against Shops, fish and Ichorid too. the argument of warrens coming down too late is true for tendrils just as well. Not saying it is the perfect fit. Because:
- merchant scroll is not so hot for me in remora decks, unless you play brain freeze, in which case it's another tutor for your win con. Gains even more if you choose to run Fire/ Ice. With a large will, it kills on the spot, too (as any storm card). Is nice for the occasional dredge / Oath mise. In this case, consider running a tormod's crypt.
- I would consider running mindbreak trap, for it is awesome when it comes to someone trying to play through remora. Perhaps replace misdirection with it. Furthermore, misdirection does nothing against MUD and Oath (the card).
- I'd run some maindeck creature solution, for people often just play confidant / lodestone golem, in which case remora doesn't do anything. Not to speak of fish.
- Although Mana drain sucks with remora, at least consider playing some, as kind of a plan B. You do not always have remora up. Also, Spell pierces lose a lot if a player tries to outwait you.
FoF is no good for me in remora decks. Jace a little better, since he alone is a TOOL and wincondition. I don't need to elaborate on what he does.

On the cutting side, I see echoing truth, some pierces (although I'm unsure here), merchant scroll (unless see above), ponder, misdirection.
Timetwister arguably goes into this category, too, although I'm a fan of it especially in remora decks. Because when your opponent has a full grip because he waits, twister is a must counter, in which case remora starts to draw you cards in the counterwar. You can then still have it countered and gain CA. Randomly good against dredge, T1 and for storming (if you go with that strategy.)
Also, but this might be highly controversial, I am not a huge fan of the vault/key plan in remora confidant, because if you go for a storm kill via empty or tendrils, your confidants at least add to winning by attacking, too. Vault-key is two slots, too. Although untapping vault when remora is active can be nice.

I hope this spreads some thinking.
You have to choose if you want to be controlling with remora or rather gain a window of opportunity for yourself. (for which your approach seems to aim, given the low number of "good" gounters you run.)

In this case, I advocate for a storm kill, too. I think it will improve the following matches:

- general tournament play: win in the extra turns.
- ichorid: be faster.
- Oath: win on the critical turn.
- Tezz: less hit by counters.

You choose which storm kill (and splash) to run based upon your local metagame. To sum it up:

Warrens: great against Shops, fish. Mediocre-good against ichorid, sucks against Tezz, Oath, TPS. Red splash in general goes into this category. Does not always win in the extra turns.
Against Tezz and oath, the turn 1 mise (bunch of artifacts and warrens) very often goes the distance, though. Some synegy with bobs.
Tendrils: bad against shops, ichorid, mediocre against fish, great against Tezz, Oath, TPS. The Allrounder. good synergy with bobs.
Brain Freeze: Great against Ichorid, good against Oath, TPS, Tezz if you run tormod's crypt. Instant, blue. Sucks against Fish and Shops. Easy to cast mana-wise. Pitchable, tutorable through merchant scroll (if you run that). No synergy with bobs.

[vassago]

I am a huge fan of Echoing Truth right now. It bounces Elephants and other annoyances.  

Green I think is the optimal color splash, currently.

I agree with Peter, misdirection could be Mindbreak Trap. Or anything. I try not to play MisD.  I think I have told you in person why I dislike the card.

Everything else looks ok. I will sleeve it up and play with it for a while and give you my thoughts later.

[serracollector]

If your running green as the third color, and your playing repeals, draw 7, ancestral, BS, 4 remora, and 3-4 confidants, wouldn't fastbond be a great inclusion?  1 mana, helps you ramp up despite Remora, works great when your drawing 2-5 cards a turn.  Puts massive pressure on the players who want to "sit it out" etc. 

Also I would totally include jace in this build as well (especially if adding in Fastbond), and probably a 2nd voltaic key.

My 2 cents

[InfectedMushroom]

The problem I see with Fastbond, is that it is win-more in a deck like this. It does not help you when you are behind. If you are playing the resources you mentioned, you are already in a winning position.

[serracollector]

If you draw cards off Remora, but don't have mana to cast them (non FoW/MisD etc), how are you in a winning position?  Some people can just play the waiting game if they are getting their land drops as well, with fastbond you completely  negate this "draw back" of remora.  Its not a win more card, its just a win card.

[silvernail]

This idea is probably really bad but you could use Braid of Fire if you wanted do use a red splash. It gives you infinite turns on remora and could power up a storm win during your upkeep.

[Delha]

If you draw cards off Remora, but don't have mana to cast them (non FoW/MisD etc), how are you in a winning position?  Some people can just play the waiting game if they are getting their land drops as well...

If you're drawing cards off Remora, then your opponent is clearly not just waiting you out.

[Rico Suave]

Would you be able to elaborate on how?  In general, I love the Tendrils kill in combo/control, because I find it so elegant, but I am curious as to what matchups it actually improves, and how many games it wins that Vault/Key can't.  I've also loathed drawing Tendrils ever since Brainstorm was restricted.

I don't like to view Tendrils as a card that improves certain matches, but rather a card that improves the deck.

Tendrils is a one card kill condition, where Vault/Key is a two card kill condition.  This is important when comboing with Will, because if we Will early and only have a single tutor we can still win.  In this sense a hand like Mystical Tutor, Repeal, Mox can produce a 9 storm Tendrils whereas it would go nowhere with Vault/Key.

Cards like Gifts, Repeal, and Lotus Petal all improve because they help facilitate an earlier lethal Will.

Timetwister is not commonly used in a lot of control decks, but casting a spell or two and then Timetwister can end the game if you draw Tendrils or a tutor for it in your fresh 7.  

If we want to discuss specific matches, the only match where I don't really value Tendrils is against Workshops.  Against everything else, the ability for Tendrils to speed up the deck is a powerful ability.  It's important to have a faster potential against Dredge and Oath - decks I frequently race with Tendrils that I otherwise could not race.  It is extremely important against Fish to have a win condition that ignores Pridemage.  

Tendrils is invaluable against decks that use Dark Confidant.  Normally the opponent can respond to our Remora with Bob, then wait it out and establish a dominating card advantage.  But Bob has a significant drawback with its life loss, and Tendrils allows us to not only punish this drawback but do so through the wall of counters they have accumulated.

Certainly Tendrils is far more conditional than other cards that could be played in its space.  It can be annoying at times, but it brings a lot to the deck.

[Eastman]

Wow great comments everyone.

It seems like the weight of support is behind green as a tertiary color.  So for now that is what I will do.

@ Outcast

As far as the meta, I guess since it is my deck we can be specific.  Right now I am most likely to play in a philly area tournament, and in the medium-term I am looking towards gencon (though I am not certain whether I will make it this year).  So actually sort of a balanced meta, fish, tps, tezz, a little bit of oath, and a heaping helping of Stax/workshop variants.

I don't agree with FoF instead of twister, because I think I am going to be following some of the other comments and including a storm package.  I am not only going to add cards taht work well with twister, but will be cutting Merchant Scroll so FOF doesn't fit in as well.  


@Tendrils.  
Hot debate going right now between Rico and Gandalf as to this.  Abdullah is also way behind the storm kill.  I sort of see both sides which is why I'm a bit on the fence.  I disagree with Rico that it is only 1 slot, I think lotus petal is probably suboptimal otherwise.  

What decides it for me, at least for now, is Peter Flugzeug's point about tournament play and having a non-turn-based kill.  That is an issue I have actually run into in the past with tezzeret and I agree that Tendrils can be invaluable there.  I will probably try it for now (though I am not playing today so won't be changing up my list yet) but consider it an open question.

@Rico on Remora/Confidant
I disagree with you and think these work very well together.  I credit your point that confidant is a non counter spell to draw off remora.  But, I think the number of active counters to run is a seperate question from which business spells to run.  Confidant is still ahead of a lot of other business.  Leaving aside its strength in its own right, it combos with remora in two very important ways.  It provides landfall for remora to help keep it alive, and it pressures the opponent to play into your remora.  Basically, remora and confidant pull your opponent in two directions.  They want to push their own advantages to keep confidant from overwhelming them.  I think the combination is brutal.  

@ Top#2
A few people have mentioned that they like this, especially as a way to find landfall.  I don't like it  for a few reasons:  (1) although it generates landfall for remora, it gets pretty pricey to play and use under remora as well.  If you play remora turn 1, turn 2 you play top, and turn 3 you get a first activation.  That's all without having spell pierce mana up or being able to cast duress or any other spells.  It just bites into the curve too much; and (2) for the same reasons that Rico attacked confidant/remora.  I would certainly play confidant 3 before a second top.  

likely changes if I were playing today:
-1 Merchant Scroll
-1 Ponder
-1 Misdirection
+1 Tendrils of Agony
+1 Lotus Petal
+1 Mindbreak trap

[Cruel Ultimatum]

The reason I like the second top in this deck is because it works well with pretty much everything. Finds lands, business spells or a remora if you don't already have one, let's you see deeper if you need a force off remora.   

The only downside is of course when you draw 2 of them, however this can let you storm out an opponent late game when you have a lot of mana, plus you have 6 fetches so drawing that 2nd top is like a 1 cc cantrip.

The other thing about top is that it works well with repeal, which also works very well with remora, and works well with tendrils.

One card that I feel like is missing from this list is library. A common play, especially for a deck like drain tendrils/tps/tezz is to wait out the remora, however with library its nearly impossible to wait out the fish, and punishes the opponent in card advantage.

The changes I would advocate are the following:
-1 something (mystical tutor?)
-1 ponder
-1 twister
-1 echoing truth
-1 rebuild
-1 duress
+1 top
+1 repeal
+1 hurk
+1 jace
+1 tendrils
+1 spell pierce

The other changes I made were the 4th spell pierce, which I find to be about the same power level but better against stax.

Jace is a card I just can't imagine not playing in a blue control shell and is just a blowout in any sort of control mirror.

I am still not sold on running 3 colors, so what I would suggest on the mana base is the following:

-2 tropical island
+1 island
+1 library

[Grand Inquisitor]

library

I've been avoiding this card in general, but it has specific weaknesses in this deck:

(1) it's a non-basic that, if wasted, could prevent you from maintaining remora
(2) if you're dropping remora you're hand is already moving away from 7
(3) if you're dropping moxen to maintain remora, ditto
(4) remora decks actually hope for a passive opponent (if your opponent plays into the remora fine, but you'd better have the fow), loa is the same way.  if your opponent has early juice and backup, loa, like remora, may have you committing strategic resources that could go towards disrupting your opponent.

The condition where it works is win more: if you have seven in hand and enough mana to maintain remora, you're already in a good position.

[median]

I haven't looked at a remora list in a long time, but is the disruption you're running standard? The reason I ask is that if we're upping the cmc with a storm win it may make sense to run the optimum disruption(and drop the confidants). It would also make sense to use Inkwell if the storm win isn't main, just so you don't fold from drawing you win-con after playing your brainstorm.
Lastly my vote goes to red as the tertiary colour. I find it extremely easy to put enough goblins on the table to win against fish and shops (I would run a warrens win main and a tendrils side), I think the lack of nature's claim is balanced out by Pyroclasm, which can come in against Fish and Ichorid.

[InfectedMushroom]

Sphinx of the Steel Wind is still castable via Black Lotus, Mox Pearl and Lotus Petal. This has come up in games I have played. Hard casting him isn't that difficult if the game has already gone on for that long.

I don't think you can compare the sheer utility of Nature's Claim to Pyroclasm. While Empty the Warrens is very effective against Fish and Workshops, and Pyroclasm is solid as well, I would prefer running Green as a splash color. Nature's Claim is an effective card simply because there are so many targets for it to hit at crucial times.

Both Red and Green offer many options, and I believe it's often a metagame and player preference issue. I just have had a lot of personal success with Nature's Claim and I believe it is well positioned in the general Vintage metagame currently.

[Rico Suave]

Empty the Warrens isn't an effective threat against Workshops, or at least not around here.  Most Workshop decks in this metagame are playing Powder Kegs, and several of them, and they are maindeck. 

@Rico on Remora/Confidant
I disagree with you and think these work very well together.  I credit your point that confidant is a non counter spell to draw off remora.  But, I think the number of active counters to run is a seperate question from which business spells to run.  Confidant is still ahead of a lot of other business.  Leaving aside its strength in its own right, it combos with remora in two very important ways.  It provides landfall for remora to help keep it alive, and it pressures the opponent to play into your remora.  Basically, remora and confidant pull your opponent in two directions.  They want to push their own advantages to keep confidant from overwhelming them.  I think the combination is brutal.  

Yes, a Bob and Remora in play together early will put the opponent in a bad position.  But isn't an early Remora already putting them into a losing position?  If you have 2 mana open with Remora active to cast Dark Confidant, there are a whole slew of other cards you could be casting that will pull you way ahead of the opponent (like Merchant Scroll).  Bob is not special in this regard from my observation.  

The problem is not punishing someone for waiting out Remora.  The problem is when they do play into Remora, and Bob does nothing for you.  

Bob takes time.  This makes him a poor topdeck as the game drags on, and even more to the point it makes him a poor card to actually draw off the Remora itself.  When our opponent ignores the Remora and plays a threat, what use is the Bob we draw?  I would much rather draw a TFK or Ponder or even Top so I can dig for an answer to my opponent's threat.  

Bob punishes them for doing nothing, but the deck already wants its opponent to do nothing.  I am far more afraid of the opponent who does things because if I don't have disruption then I need to be able to produce a better threat.  Bob is not a better threat.  Untapping and producing a storm win with all the cards we drew is a better threat.  

Also, Tendrils didn't work for me at all with both Bob and Remora.  Part of the reason the Tendrils kill is good is because of cards like Top - they build storm and let you see more business *right now* to keep chaining storm.  Bob and Remora are business, but they do not chain storm.  If you draw into Bob, you just stop and pass the turn.

[unicoerner]

Everyone is talking about how Bob works under an remora and that both want our opponent to do nothing.
Sometimes you just draw either either Bob or remora other times one of the parts gets countered. Bob and Remora are our draw cards and engines. There is nothing wrong about it that both work quite good together.

If we splash green, we could perhaps atleast iclude 1 Natures claim main?

I'd like a Tendrills will, too.

Imo Jace and Tendrils dont work that good together.

[Bill Copes]

Imo Jace and Tendrils dont work that good together.

What's your reasoning?  The free brainstorm every turn generally sets up a pretty nice tendrils.

[Cyberpunker]

Maindeck Nature's Claim is great in today's metagame. In every single one of your tier 1 matchups except ANT and Dredge, you have a target.

Oath, MUD's scary stuff, Null Rod, and Time Vault.

Dredge may also have Chalice for 0, another target you may want to destroy. And destroying your own moxes to gain some life isn't that bad in the ANT matchup. Nor is destroying their mana if they play them recklessly.

[meadbert]

Was Time Walk supposed to be included in the original list?  If not why?  It seems really good in any deck with Dark Confidant.

[vassago]

 Bob punishes them for doing nothing, but the deck already wants its opponent to do nothing.

If these things are true, wouldn't it be a win win scenario?

I want you to do nothing, and I punish you for doing exactly what I want you to do.  This seems decent, in theory at least.

Sometimes you just draw either either Bob or remora other times one of the parts gets countered.

This seems to be a weaker argument for the inclusion of both, but it seems valid to me still.

I think both of these cards applies pressure, in different ways obviously, but i think it isnt necessarily bad, especially when I think baout using them together. Infact, it seems better to me the more I think about it.

It seems to me that if you play both, you are pretty much going to have a turn one threat, of sorts, every game.

[Delha]

Bob punishes them for doing nothing, but the deck already wants its opponent to do nothing.

If these things are true, wouldn't it be a win win scenario?

I assume his point is that it's win-more.

[vassago]

Bob punishes them for doing nothing, but the deck already wants its opponent to do nothing.

If these things are true, wouldn't it be a win win scenario?

I assume his point is that it's win-more.

I wouldn't say that it's win more.  Remora isn't a win condition, but a pseudo lock piece.  So, why wouldn't it make sense to have a threat and piece of disruption out at the same time?