Slash Panther Workshop Aggro

[Smmenen]

I shared this list in my podcast, but this deck is really good:

4 Panther
4 Golem
4 Revoker
3 Metamorph

1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere
4 Thorn
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
2 Null Rod

4 Shop
4 Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Academy
5 moxen
1 sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus

It's pretty much smashing every blue deck I have. 

Slash Panther is a gigantic improvement over Juggernaut since it can actually murder a Jace (since it has haste), and wins a turn faster with Metamorph.  The tempo is enormous. 

I prefer mono brown over the red splash for mana consistency.   

Obviously, this list is probably weak to some forms of the mirror, but it's been tearing up non-Workshop decks.   

It's possible that some of the numbers should be tweaked.  Null Rod is so unbelievably powerful that I may want 3, even though it serves many of the functions that Revoker serves.   

This basic approach is the strongest Workshop Aggro deck I've seen in a long time against Ancient Grudge as well, since it maxes out on Thorns.   

Thoughts? 

[madmanmike25]

Thoughts? 

1.)  My thoughts are that this guy dies to ANY hate bear that blocks him.  Did you test against any fishy decks? 

2.)  I like the Rod/Revoker split.  I assume u have 2 Rods in the sb and 1 Metamorph as well?

3.)  Is this guy better than Precursor in terms of beats?  Thats the most important question I think.

4.)  If you ever do take out the Rods (for whatever reason) 2 Karn could eat any moxen, or make you the army needed to deal lethal damage.

[quicksilvervii]

Thoughts?  

1.)  My thoughts are that this guy dies to ANY hate bear that blocks him.  Did you test against any fishy decks?  

This was my concern as well.  Is a Bob on defense a factor also?

Thoughts?  

3.)  Is this guy better than Precursor in terms of beats?  Thats the most important question I think.

Also thought about this.  My only concern is Ancient Grudge  hitting all of these dudes alongside your golem (and metamorph should you choose to copy it).

Thoughts?  

4.)  If you ever do take out the Rods (for whatever reason) 2 Karn could eat any moxen, or make you the army needed to deal lethal damage.

I have been on the fence with Karn.  I currently do not play nullrod because I like Hellkite, but the 2 mana vs 5 mana requirement might make a difference.

@Steve, How has the mana base been with nullrod?  I'm surprised not to see crucible in a deck that runs 3 city of traitors.

[Bill Copes]

This was my concern as well.  Is a Bob on defense a factor also?

If they're using their Bobs as speed bumps, they're not using them to draw cards.  As for the other hate bears, they're all primarily utility guys, so trading with them also seems like a fair play.  You're probably winning if they have to start chucking guys in front of your assault.

I'm surprised not to see crucible in a deck that runs 3 city of traitors.

In the lists I have, I run 4 cities in the main, with 2 crucibles in the board.  Your primary focus is having the shortest games possible, and > 2 cities achieves this tremendously (insert negative quip about games being short because of drawing X cities in a row and losing).  If your other acceleration is cut off by Null Rod, the extra sol lands make sure you keep laying the beats.

[BC]

Here's the list I played at Superstars on Sunday, splitting in the finals:

4 Shop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip
1 Academy
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

4 Lodestone
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Slash Panther
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Steel Hellkite

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
3 Null Rod
0 Chalice

I had two goals for this deck: smash people in the face as fast as possible, and bury them under a pile of spheres.  I played 4 Factory rather than any number of City of Traitors to improve the aggro aspect of the deck, and they were huge all day long.  In several games they were the main source of beats, particularly in games where I piled up 5 or 6 sphere effects.  I left out Chalices, even though it killed me a little inside to do so, because I felt like other cards just did a better job of supporting my main strategies.

If any card was a disappointment, it was Steel Hellkite.  It is just too much mana, and frankly not that impressive of an effect in most situations.  If I was to play the deck again tomorrow, I would replace these with the 4th Revoker, and maybe a 1-of Precursor Golem.  

I lost four games all day.  Three of them were to early Tinker-Blightsteel, a couple times with FOW/Drain backup for my Metamorph.  The fourth was to a quickly assembled Vault/Key.  It is very possible that Chalice would help against Tinker.  

I have tested a little against Fish decks.  You pretty much lose hard no matter what you do.  It is definitely the "paper" to this deck's "rock".  I feel like every other matchup is favorable, or at least even.  

[madmanmike25]

You forgot the most important statistic about this deck:  They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
Change the name to Sex Panther imo.

RE:

You're probably winning if they have to start chucking guys in front of your assault.

It's not so much that as the opponent has the OPTION to block with either DC or hatebear and trade.  I don't like giving options.  With 2 toughness it gives your opponent a different avenue to get back in the game.  It is a highly relevant factor in my eyes.

[Bill Copes]

It's not so much that as the opponent has the OPTION to block with either DC or hatebear and trade.  I don't like giving options.  With 2 toughness it gives your opponent a different avenue to get back in the game.  It is a highly relevant factor in my eyes.

You've done infini more testing than I have against these archetypes, so I'll have to take your word for it, over my limited experience.  I just don't see too many folks playing bant fish in my area.

Change the name to Sex Panther imo.

From here on out, I'm referring to Slash Panthers as Quick Cats.  Also, I expect some awesome Pantrho alterations to pop up in the near future.  Hooray for new cards!

---

Blaine, I love the list.  I'm going to try out factories to see if they jive with what i've got cooking.

[BC]

You forgot the most important statistic about this deck:  They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.

You can manipulate statistics to say whatever you want.  83% of people know that.

[Smmenen]

@Steve, How has the mana base been with nullrod?  I'm surprised not to see crucible in a deck that runs 3 city of traitors.

Crucible is obviously a good card, but this deck runs very smoothly without it.   City of Traitors is just a reusable mana accellerant, and it works with or without Crucible.   City, Mox, Mox, turn one Lodestone Golem, turn two Sphere, etc, is often enough to win the game.

I agree with the folks who are concerned about Fish decks, but I would sb 4 Precursor Golems for the mirror, and for Fish.  

[doggue]

Very interesting. But I don't play the Cat's. I really think their weekness against other workshop decks is very bad. I play 4 Precursor's in the maindeck. Often they are a 1 turn clock. As for sideboarding in the mirror, nothing beats crucible's and duplicants. I know, duplicants are 6cc but they are so important!

Stephen - I'd like to hear your oppinion on #4 Sphere o. R. VS. #3 Null Rod. I found the 3rd Null Rod to be more important.

[KingSquee]

The red build does match up far better against Fish-like decks. Jens + Goblin Welder is just too much card advantage, and Greater Gargadon out of the board gives them fits. (Ask John Jones.)

That said, the red build as piloted by psyburat and myself is pretty weak to combo, so we'll definitely be back to the drawing board in the next couple weeks to see what can be done.

[Smmenen]

Very interesting. But I don't play the Cat's. I really think their weekness against other workshop decks is very bad. I play 4 Precursor's in the maindeck. Often they are a 1 turn clock. As for sideboarding in the mirror, nothing beats crucible's and duplicants. I know, duplicants are 6cc but they are so important!

Precursor Golem is actually insane in the mirror.

Stephen - I'd like to hear your oppinion on #4 Sphere o. R. VS. #3 Null Rod. I found the 3rd Null Rod to be more important.

I think there is a natural temptation to cut Sphere of Res.   Thorn of Amethyst is so synergistic in this deck, that it seems more sacrosanct than Sphere.  I don't think this is wise.   Sphere is just a better card, despite the greater synergy Thorn would appear to have with the deck.

I think a third Null Rod could and should be added, and I would look at cutting Mana Vault or City of Traitors # 2 before a Sphere is cut.   I would cut Thorn before Sphere though. 

[Shax]

Slash Panther seems bad when Precursor Golem is better. Slash panther's advantage of being a four drop at -2 life is better in the long term. A 5 mana investment for a Precursor Golem that eats the same removal as Slash Panther or worse bides a turn for the player to get a combo on the table is pretty bad still. It fills the role of a quicker clock that pitches to Pyrokinesis.

There is no reason to cut your best cards (Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, Lodestone Golem) over any circumstances since they are so good at griefing players. Phyrexian Metamorph increases your Clock with Lodestone Golem, or makes your cards better with multiple Thorns. Against decks that are packing Bob which is becoming increasingly common, choices like Sphere of Resistance and Duplicant are preferred.

[Smmenen]

Slash Panther seems bad when Precursor Golem is better. Slash panther's advantage of being a four drop at -2 life is better in the long term. A 5 mana investment for a Precursor Golem that eats the same removal as Slash Panther or worse bides a turn for the player to get a combo on the table is pretty bad still. It fills the role of a quicker clock that pitches to Pyrokinesis.

Experience and my testing suggests otherwise.   Slash Panther is better because it immediately kills Jace/Tezzeret the turn it comes into play, and can't be bounced.   Slash Panther is a better tempo play, as well. 

[Random Noob]

The arguments that the Panther kills Planeswalker immediatly and is a rush with Phyrexian Metamorph, are music in my ears. Currently i don't know whats up with the Meta, but what the Top 8s i see spit out is that Mud is going back. So you don't have to be insanly prepared fpr mirrors, like with 4 Hellkite and 4 Metamorph maindeck. I would go up to 3 Null Rod, because on the Draw its the most insane Sphere effect.

I would't run Precursor Maindeck, he is huge, espacially in the Mirror, but against those prepared Gush Decks i don't feel well with him, cause Claim and Grudges are all around. For the SB he would be a real choice, but i'm also not sure how to Split him up with Duplos.

[Random Noob]

The arguments that the Panther kills Planeswalker immediatly and is a rush with Phyrexian Metamorph, are music in my ears. Currently i don't know whats up with the Meta, but what the Top 8s i see spit out is that Mud is going back. So you don't have to be insanly prepared fpr mirrors, like with 4 Hellkite and 4 Metamorph maindeck. I would go up to 3 Null Rod, because on the Draw its the most insane Sphere effect.

I would't run Precursor Maindeck, he is huge, espacially in the Mirror, but against those prepared Gush Decks i don't feel well with him, cause Claim and Grudges are all around. For the SB he would be a real choice, but i'm also not sure how to Split him up with Duplos.

//EDIT// And i would cut the 4th Revoker for the 3rd Rod. Revoker on the go isn't the insane play, when you have no information about your Opponents Deck.

[Meddling Mike]

I'm sort of disappointed in myself for not seeing this adorable little Niche the panther fills when I was considering the vintage potential of the cards in NPH. Myself and Brassman were discussing the very topic of NPH cards that could find a home in Shops and I never gave this guy any thought. So I suppose the card that this should get the comparison to is Precursor Golem. Like always, here comes my pros/cons list.

Pros of Slash Panther:
-1 mana cheaper
-Haste. Relevant when fighting certain planeswalkers and allows you to net some additional damage when bounced that Precursor Golem would not.

Cons of Slash Panther:
-Only brings 4 damage
-Only 2 toughness. Trades with alot of things you'd rather it didn't trade with most of the time
-Costs 2 life every time he's cast. Usually insignificant, but there's 4 Ancient Tombs, 4 Phyrexian Metamorph, a Mana Crypt and a Mana Vault, it adds up.
-Boy are you going to look silly when they cast their otherwise ineffective Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast.

Pros of Precursor Golem:
-He does it a turn later than panther, but when he does he effectively attacks for 9, netting one more point of damage than two attacks with a Slash Panther. This disparity grows with each turn the Precursor Golem goes unmolested. I guess we also need to take into account that the Panther may have come down a turn earlier than the Golem.
-Generates multiple permanents, this is relevant for the purposes of Smokestack and Tangle Wire. I see that the builds here do not have Smokestack, but that doesn't mean you won't be facing one.

Cons of Precursor Golem:
-If they have a spell that nets them some sort of advantage when cast they can live the dream. The example that comes up commonly in draft is Slice in Twain, but I think something like repeal could possibly come up in a match.
-Only 3 power, they get blocked for value all day by a Su-Chi, or a 3/4 Tarmogoyf or something.
-Adds a liability with Lodestone Golem.
Seems to me that Golem is the better card to finish off an opponent quickly when they can't deal with it. Conversely, the Panther seems to be at his best when things aren't going quite according to plan. If you're not able to get to 5 mana or they can bounce it he really shines by reclaiming the tempo that would have been lost by a Juggernaut or a Precursor Golem. I usually like cards that can be strong in suboptimal situations rather than those that win when everything is already going well. There's certainly something to be said for going for the throat, especially in Vintage where the power level of cards is so high that every draw step is a liability for the shop player, but it's an interesting dynamic.

[BC]

Importantly, Precursor Golem also puts your Lodestone Golems at risk.  One Lightning Bolt/Ancient Grudge can take out the whole team.

[The Atog Lord]

This is a very interesting development in Workshop decks. Long ago, Workshop decks could power out huge monsters like Su-Chi and Juggernaut quickly. Over time, more and more lock pieces were incorporated into their design. By the height of STAX decks, Workshop decks had put aside all of their celerity to focus on lock pieces. And they could be fought with the knowledge that the Workshop deck could not win until it had fully locked up the game.

Lodestone Golem has changed the dynamic. He represents a potent duality, being both threat and lock piece. This build of Workshop is filled with threats, and can end the game fairly quickly. However, many of the threats are also themselves lock pieces. It's very interesting.

[Smmenen]

This is a very interesting development in Workshop decks. Long ago, Workshop decks could power out huge monsters like Su-Chi and Juggernaut quickly. Over time, more and more lock pieces were incorporated into their design. By the height of STAX decks, Workshop decks had put aside all of their celerity to focus on lock pieces. And they could be fought with the knowledge that the Workshop deck could not win until it had fully locked up the game.

Lodestone Golem has changed the dynamic. He represents a potent duality, being both threat and lock piece. This build of Workshop is filled with threats, and can end the game fairly quickly. However, many of the threats are also themselves lock pieces. It's very interesting.

The weakness of creatures has always been that they dont do anything.  No longer.   Each of the creatures in my list actually serves an alternative function.  Golem is a Sphere.  Revoker is a mini Pithing Needle/Null Rod.  Metamorph copies any threat or lock piece, or even your opponent's Tinker target/Trygon Predator.  And Slash Panther is  Jace killer, in addition to being a huge tempo play. 

[serracollector]

I don't know about you guys, but this version of MUD really reminds me of the TnT days of Flying hasty juggernauts.  I really like it, but since its splashing red and Blue, do we really still need all the spheres?  Can't we just make it a UR aggro artifact build?  Or are the spheres absolutely necessary?

[Troy_Costisick]

I'm surprised at the level of skepticism toward this deck.  Oh well, that's good for the Panther players at GenCon this year.

[Smmenen]

I don't know about you guys, but this version of MUD really reminds me of the TnT days of Flying hasty juggernauts.  I really like it, but since its splashing red and Blue, do we really still need all the spheres?  Can't we just make it a UR aggro artifact build?  Or are the spheres absolutely necessary?

It's not splashing red and blue.  You pay for that mana with your life.  The Spheres are vital, since they are the key tempo cards.   

[yespuhyren]

Cool list steve, but without smokestacks, have you found 8 fatties to be enough to not get stuck on dead draws?  I liked revoker, but I currently have Juggs instead for added damage and a clock, playing

4x Juggs
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Precursor Golem
4x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Phyrexian Metamorph

[marcb]

I have been looking at this list and comparing it to yespuhyren's list, a part of which is mentioned in the post before mine, and I've noticed that this list with the extra 2 drops (revokers and null rod) and the lower casting cost ceiling of slash panthers at CMC 4 effectively looks much more like the mana curve for a sligh deck. In fact if you pretend that all the artifacts in Smennen's list have an effective CMC of 1 less because of the additional mana produced by the lands in the deck (workshop, city of traitors, ancient tomb), his mana curve matches the old school sligh mana curves very well, ignoring the X spells. I wonder if this similarity provides much of the tempo he is feeling when he plays his list. That is that he is able to use his mana to maximal effect each turn by having a variety of CMC cards that allow him to use all of his mana each turn. In addition, as he mentioned he ensures each card pulls double duty, by also providing utiility the turn it comes into play. Somehow Smennen's list appears less effective to me because I don't see the scary precursor golems or wurmcoils that can single-handedly end a game, but most people thought that the first sligh lists ever created were a definite pile for similar reasons, and we know how that turned out. Smennen was there any ever consideration of the mana curve along this vein when designing your list? Do you think this comparison has any value in understanding the tempo you see when playing the deck?

[BC]

I think you guys are approaching this the wrong way.  Just because this is an aggro deck doesn't mean you always have to have a relentless wave of huge robots to throw at your opponent.  This deck is also a mana denial deck, working primarily through sphere effects, but also Tangle Wire, Wastelands, and Chalice.  If I pull a hand of Workshop, Waste, Tomb, Sphere, Thorn, Tangle Wire, Metamorph, I'm going to keep the shit out of it, even though it doesn't have any big creatures.  Every time you land a Sphere effect, you essentially put your opponent back one turn.  If you Waste a land, you put them back a turn.  If you land a Tangle Wire, you put them back several turns.  This buys you plenty of time to find your Golem or Panther and start smashing.  Just because you're an aggro deck, this doesn't mean you have to beat for 20 in three turns or less.  I would MUCH rather have a first turn Sphere than a first turn Panther or Juggernaut. 

[yespuhyren]

In my workshop experience, they can sit under any amount of spheres, with 8 relevant threats (lodestone+slash) and no card draw, assuming they counter nothing but fatties they can sit and chill.  Slash Panther gives almost every deck an easy blocking out to kill it, meaning 12 out of 16 threats die to any 2 power blocker.  Playing any other fatty gives you some sort of resilience against blockers.

Lodestone: 5/3
Slash Panther: 4/2
Phyrexian Revoker: 2/1

At least playing creatures that they have to trade more than 1 for 1 for or continually have to chump block will help.  Sure against straight up blue control this will win, but I think this creature package is more fragile against the rest of the field. 

With regards to this deck vs mine, Steve and I have stuck to polar opposites.  Steve has the FULL control package and is maximizing utility with only 4 "open slots" (which he is using for 4 slash panther).  Mine is the FULL aggro package, and maximizes speed/power at the cost of resistorb/revokers.  Comparing the two decks is like comparing TPS to GrimLong

[Smmenen]

Slash Panther does things in practice that are difficult to capture descriptively or conceptually.  It just seems to win out of nowhere.  If you haven't actually *tested* Panther, do so. 

[psyburat]

Slash Panther does things in practice that are difficult to capture descriptively or conceptually.  It just seems to win out of nowhere.  If you haven't actually *tested* Panther, do so.  

My personal favorite "out of nowhere" strategy is Welding out a Panther EOT for another dead creature, then Welding a Mox out the next turn for that hasty goodness.  It's why I ran Goblin Welder in the build I gave Glackin.

[Random Noob]

Some Days back i was trying to get a Red Shop Aggro featuring 4 Lightning Bolts as removal and Pyrostatic Pillar as pseudo Sphere Effekt. I guess the Pather is also a good fit for this experinment.