Slash Panther Workshop Aggro

[yespuhyren]

I ran Gathan Raiders in my old mono red shop at T8'ed at a few large tourneys.  They were awesome.  Slash panther is even better.  Magus Moon/Shop aggro definitely got an amazing creature, I just feel he is suboptimal for mono brown. 

[Smmenen]

As I said in the podcast, I think red weakens the mana base and creates too much mana inconsistency.  If I wanted lands that would tap for one, I would play Buried Ruin instead of Mountain. 

[yespuhyren]

As I said in the podcast, I think red weakens the mana base and creates too much mana inconsistency.  If I wanted lands that would tap for one, I would play Buried Ruin instead of Mountain. 

I wasn't arguing Gathan Raiders over Slash Panther, that was in regards to the previous poster.  Mono red is far weaker than MUD.

With regards to Slash Panther, Steve, like I said, I have tested it, and the niche he fills in your deck is awesome.  In your list it works and I would NOT cut it. My concern in the deck is not with Slash panther, but with a lack of threats.  4x Sphere AND 4x Phyrexian Revoker seems like a lot of midgame dead draws, and turning 4x Revoker into threats seems like it would be better in the mid-late game.

[Smmenen]

Oh, I thought you were saying that Slash Panther is suboptimal in mono brown.  This deck does have a higher number of threats: Golem, Panther, Metamorph, and Revokers.   One possibility though is to cut a land or two and run Buried Ruin to recur countered Panthers or Golems.  What's awesome is that they attack the turn you recur (they being Panthers).

[Mith]

Looks like quite a few people top-8'd the recent PA tourney with Slash Panther...except cutting Tangle Wire for additional aggro via Precursor Golem.

Tangle wire has always been gold for me...but 16 beaters + 4 Metamorph is hard to pass up, especially when paired with a full set of Sphere/Thorns.

[yespuhyren]

Oh, I thought you were saying that Slash Panther is suboptimal in mono brown.  This deck does have a higher number of threats: Golem, Panther, Metamorph, and Revokers.   One possibility though is to cut a land or two and run Buried Ruin to recur countered Panthers or Golems.  What's awesome is that they attack the turn you recur (they being Panthers).

Not at all.  I personally like Wurmcoil if I had to pick any fatty, simply because of his resilience.  Every artifact destruction spell simply gives you two 3/3s, and while that is more manageable, a lot of decks can't deal with that.  I had a lot of blown up Wurms turn into free tokens and smash face via Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge, and Shattering Spree.  Even with Grudge you're either left with a 3/3 Lifelink or 3/3 Deathtouch, none to shabby considering they would have to cast and RFG it under everything.

Looks like quite a few people top-8'd the recent PA tourney with Slash Panther...except cutting Tangle Wire for additional aggro via Precursor Golem.

Tangle wire has always been gold for me...but 16 beaters + 4 Metamorph is hard to pass up, especially when paired with a full set of Sphere/Thorns.

Just for the hell of it, try cutting Sphere of Resistance.  I am not saying it is useless, but people underestimate the ability of winning with speed in a workshop deck (And Trinisphere becomes playable again vs playing 13sphere.dec.  Believe me, there is something to be said for going balls to the walls aggro.  Slash Panther is VERY good at that purpose.  The reason I am not running it is I personally feel that Orb of Dreams is the best sphere in the game.  If I were to cut the Orb to go more aggro,  I would consider the Slash Panther or Juggernaut.

[nineisnoone]

Awesome innovation. Crazy how haste makes so much of a difference.

Chalice definitely has to stay.

I think Karn (i'm just a big fan) should get some love here.  Would help with fish since you can (of course that's only if they don't Rod), and in the mirror you could animate an opposing artifact and copy it with Metamorph and (?) it would stay a creature (?).

[Bill Copes]

The only issue I see with Karn is if you end up playing the mirror, your opponents' Metamorphs act as removal spells.  It could end up costing you.  That, and Null Rod is the hotness.

[yespuhyren]

I definitely wouldn't play Karn.  Karn gets overly expensive under a sphere locked board, has nothing relevant to animate for the win, and is hurt by Null Rod.  His mox eating ability is irrelevant as you are playing Null Rods/Chalices.  While I personally don't have room for Buried Ruin in my deck, I believe it could fix the late game issues of this deck without having to add fat.  The benefit of that is it keeps the mana curve as nice as it is now.  When playing SOR, EVERYTHING becomes more difficult, so you have to keep your mana costs down when possible. 

Every Vintage player in Toronto (or player who has played Vintage in Toronto) knows VERY well what it is like to get landlocked by Landstill and Fish.

[Smmenen]

Karn can be a quick source of damage, but it's a more controlling card given the alternatives at that casting cost.  I'd rather play Precursor Golem, in general. 

[yespuhyren]

Karn can be a quick source of damage, but it's a more controlling card given the alternatives at that casting cost.  I'd rather play Precursor Golem, in general. 

In that I agree, as for the same cost Precursor will likely get through for more damage.  In shop aggro, you need to be able to smash through creatures and smash face.  Karn can be chumped by an 0/1 all day.  While you can smash with artifacts for quick damage like Spheres and whatnot, that just make more artifacts vulnerable.  I'm not anti-Karn, but generally speaking I'm anti-Karn in shop aggro.

[Blue Lotus]

I think Karn (i'm just a big fan) should get some love here.  Would help with fish since you can (of course that's only if they don't Rod), and in the mirror you could animate an opposing artifact and copy it with Metamorph and (?) it would stay a creature (?).

This doesn't work, see Inkmoth nexus/metamorph. You copy values printed on the card.

[Smmenen]

I shared this list in my podcast, but this deck is really good:

4 Panther
4 Golem
4 Revoker
3 Metamorph

1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere
4 Thorn
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
2 Null Rod

4 Shop
4 Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Academy
5 moxen
1 sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus

It's pretty much smashing every blue deck I have. 

Slash Panther is a gigantic improvement over Juggernaut since it can actually murder a Jace (since it has haste), and wins a turn faster with Metamorph.  The tempo is enormous. 

I prefer mono brown over the red splash for mana consistency.   

Obviously, this list is probably weak to some forms of the mirror, but it's been tearing up non-Workshop decks.   

It's possible that some of the numbers should be tweaked.  Null Rod is so unbelievably powerful that I may want 3, even though it serves many of the functions that Revoker serves.   

This basic approach is the strongest Workshop Aggro deck I've seen in a long time against Ancient Grudge as well, since it maxes out on Thorns.   

Thoughts? 

I noticed that alot of people played this deck at Gencon.   Ryan Glackin played almost this exact 60 (I believe he played 58 of 60).   

[Shax]

I don't think Slash Panther is as good as it puts on. It's a poor mans Lodestone Golem that gets chumped by Bob and hated by Pyroclasm. When facing them down I would have  no problems trading a Simian Spirit Guide for one. The haste is nice but is it really the innovations for Shops moving forward? I think Steel Hellkite is better indefinatley since atleast it eats Trygon and people's boards in one swing. Duplicant atleast stops Tinker targets and does a good job of fighting creatures, so does Phyrexian Metamorph.

Using Null Rod's and Panther is in the danger of cool things because the cool things you should be doing are 2 for 1ing the opponent while beating their face in. Slash Panther just beats very fast so that usually 2 of them first and second turn end the game. A single Lodestone Golem can end the game. I think I would rather be playing Serum Powder to find Lodestone Golem much more frequently on turn 1 than Slash Panther so atleast I lock whoever down too. Not a big issue, but Slash Panther is also -2 life for non red builds. If it caught on it would get facepalmed by Triskelion too.

[vaughnbros]

I don't think Slash Panther is as good as it puts on. It's a poor mans Lodestone Golem that gets chumped by Bob and hated by Pyroclasm. When facing them down I would have  no problems trading a Simian Spirit Guide for one. The haste is nice but is it really the innovations for Shops moving forward? I think Steel Hellkite is better indefinatley since atleast it eats Trygon and people's boards in one swing. Duplicant atleast stops Tinker targets and does a good job of fighting creatures, so does Phyrexian Metamorph.

Using Null Rod's and Panther is in the danger of cool things because the cool things you should be doing are 2 for 1ing the opponent while beating their face in. Slash Panther just beats very fast so that usually 2 of them first and second turn end the game. A single Lodestone Golem can end the game. I think I would rather be playing Serum Powder to find Lodestone Golem much more frequently on turn 1 than Slash Panther so atleast I lock whoever down too. Not a big issue, but Slash Panther is also -2 life for non red builds. If it caught on it would get facepalmed by Triskelion too.

Your comparing a 4 drop with a bunch of 6 drops and the 6 drops are not better that should pretty much prove the point that slash panther is good right away.  Unless a majority of blue players start playing creatures again (predators and bobs) then slash panther and null rod is definitely better than hellkite.  So really it comes down what the blue players are choosing to run, maybe the null rods should be hellkites or triskelion, but i dont think slash panther should come out.

[yespuhyren]

I don't think Slash Panther is as good as it puts on. It's a poor mans Lodestone Golem that gets chumped by Bob and hated by Pyroclasm. When facing them down I would have  no problems trading a Simian Spirit Guide for one. The haste is nice but is it really the innovations for Shops moving forward? I think Steel Hellkite is better indefinatley since atleast it eats Trygon and people's boards in one swing. Duplicant atleast stops Tinker targets and does a good job of fighting creatures, so does Phyrexian Metamorph.

Using Null Rod's and Panther is in the danger of cool things because the cool things you should be doing are 2 for 1ing the opponent while beating their face in. Slash Panther just beats very fast so that usually 2 of them first and second turn end the game. A single Lodestone Golem can end the game. I think I would rather be playing Serum Powder to find Lodestone Golem much more frequently on turn 1 than Slash Panther so atleast I lock whoever down too. Not a big issue, but Slash Panther is also -2 life for non red builds. If it caught on it would get facepalmed by Triskelion too.

Your comparing a 4 drop with a bunch of 6 drops and the 6 drops are not better that should pretty much prove the point that slash panther is good right away.  Unless a majority of blue players start playing creatures again (predators and bobs) then slash panther and null rod is definitely better than hellkite.  So really it comes down what the blue players are choosing to run, maybe the null rods should be hellkites or triskelion, but i dont think slash panther should come out.

That and talking about how you lose 2 life for non red builds.  Non red builds shouldn't really exist right now as mountain casts lodestone golem slower than ancient tomb and city of traitors.  I've dropped mountains and gone mono brown for the first time in 6-7 years, and I can tell you it's the right choice right now.  I also don't see how it gets facepalmed by Trike if trike becomes a 2/2 to kill it.

[LSD25]

im having trouble firguring out if i want hellkite, null rod or precursor.  I think hellkite is right if trygon is on the comeback.  null rod is such a beast in this build.  precursor will end games 1 turn earlier, which is no laughing matter, but may be win more.  i have not had too much trouble getting control of the board, but null rod stops many surprise shenanigans dead in their tracks.

[yespuhyren]

I shared this list in my podcast, but this deck is really good:

4 Panther
4 Golem
4 Revoker
3 Metamorph

1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere
4 Thorn
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
2 Null Rod

4 Shop
4 Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Academy
5 moxen
1 sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus

It's pretty much smashing every blue deck I have. 

Slash Panther is a gigantic improvement over Juggernaut since it can actually murder a Jace (since it has haste), and wins a turn faster with Metamorph.  The tempo is enormous. 

I prefer mono brown over the red splash for mana consistency.   

Obviously, this list is probably weak to some forms of the mirror, but it's been tearing up non-Workshop decks.   

It's possible that some of the numbers should be tweaked.  Null Rod is so unbelievably powerful that I may want 3, even though it serves many of the functions that Revoker serves.   

This basic approach is the strongest Workshop Aggro deck I've seen in a long time against Ancient Grudge as well, since it maxes out on Thorns.   

Thoughts? 

I noticed that alot of people played this deck at Gencon.   Ryan Glackin played almost this exact 60 (I believe he played 58 of 60).   

Impressive finish for sure.  While I still think I'd rather use Orb of Dreams that Panther for now, considering the 4 maindeck Metamorphs in my deck I may just go all out aggro and swap in 3 panthers for the 3 Orb.