"The Unbroken" U/R Landstill: The Primer

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

So remora is a strong tool bc "sometimes" it will pull a counter. I can name a 100 other cards that can do the same. And we all can name cards that are decent against certain matchups...

You sure talk like a rats player dominating the Yu-Gi_Yoh tables...

I like the link you added   I am not attacking you, I am questioning how good of a player you are and how much experience you actually have.

Oh, the irony . . .

YES   I sure am questioning your knowledge/experience haha...and you might smell funny HAHA added bonus

[desolutionist]

Landstill isn't unbeatable.  In my experience against Josh, you're absolutely not going to win the long game.  You have to go balls to the wall on turn 1/2, aggressively mulliganing into business and hope he doesn't have FoW or that you have FoW backup.  If you're playing a broken deck, this is the best strategy to use against Landstill.  If you have a turn 1 bomb and NOTHING else, go for it; half of the time, this will win you the game right there.  If you can take advantage of the fact that Landstill is light on mana, you can get yourself into a good position before they can use all their draw.  If he gets out a Standstill, you want to avoid cracking it, sculpting your hand and making land drops for as long as you can and then EoT instant (so they have to discard 3)

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Landstill isn't unbeatable.  In my experience against Josh, you're absolutely not going to win the long game.  You have to go balls to the wall on turn 1/2, aggressively mulliganing into business and hope he doesn't have FoW or that you have FoW backup.  If you're playing a broken deck, this is the best strategy to use against Landstill.  If you have a turn 1 bomb and NOTHING else, go for it; half of the time, this will win you the game right there.  If you can take advantage of the fact that Landstill is light on mana, you can get yourself into a good position before they can use all their draw.  If he gets out a Standstill, you want to avoid cracking it, sculpting your hand and making land drops for as long as you can and then EoT instant (so they have to discard 3)

^YES!

I lose to early bombs plays with protection when I don't have enough to stop it. Desolutionist is 100% correct here. I generally win the long games...

I used to be lighter on mana at 24 sources. My lists are at 26 now so I generally hit my land drops. But other then that well said.

[credmond]

I guess it depends on the bomb and what you got to do to go for it. Remember 4 FOW, Midirection, 2 Traps, and 2 mm are among the cards that are possibly online immediately and steel sabotage and hurkyll's recall are online possibly for Landstill's turn one.

Tinker seems real risky as well as ancestral but Doomsday, Wheel, Windfall, Necro, etc. much less so. A big factor is whether you enable Trap by going for your bomb. Being met with a Force is a lot gentler than getting hit by Trap.

Gitaxian Probe, Duress, Fluster, Remora, Defense Grid, Swarm can all be used to enhance this aggressive line of play.

Landstill isn't unbeatable.  In my experience against Josh, you're absolutely not going to win the long game.  You have to go balls to the wall on turn 1/2, aggressively mulliganing into business and hope he doesn't have FoW or that you have FoW backup.  If you're playing a broken deck, this is the best strategy to use against Landstill.  If you have a turn 1 bomb and NOTHING else, go for it; half of the time, this will win you the game right there.  If you can take advantage of the fact that Landstill is light on mana, you can get yourself into a good position before they can use all their draw.  If he gets out a Standstill, you want to avoid cracking it, sculpting your hand and making land drops for as long as you can and then EoT instant (so they have to discard 3)

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

All of which named are played in most storm combo decks at some point or another and a stong hand by those decks can be trouble. Like duress into bomb with force of misD back up is bad for landstill. Luckily those decks have been on a decline because of workshops...

[TheWhiteDragon]

Sorry for the hiatus from the discussion - I had to go to work today.  I know you all missed me.

@credmond - yes, I posted something nearly identical to the bomberman thread, but as I stated, that was very hasty.  I posted that after one day of playtesting and through a limited gauntlet (notice I didn't list landstill as a deck it beats).  And I do believe I was a bit tipsy on that occassion.  Regardless, it is a very powerful deck with many answers.  It, too, can thrash many archetypes.

Landstill is the real deal however.  Pointing to tourney results in general doesn't do anything.  Point at Josh's tourney and you'll see the real truth.  Saying that other people don't place with it isn't good because they usually can't run the deck right or use a worse list.  Your argument is basically saying "thousands of people die via gunshot all the time, but hardly anyone died of a bazooka all year - therefore guns are more deadly than a bazooka".  That might be because nobody runs the bazooka since most of them don't even know how it works.  It's not as intuitive and simple as point/pull trigger.  In the hands of the more competent, and I give Josh all the props here, landstill is the more powerful weapon.

Yes, I get excited, and yes I troll an awful lot - but I usually only chime in where there is truth to my trolling.  Landstill i have tested a  lot against, and I am not jumping the gun on this one like I did on bomberman.  Also, bomberman can get hated out of a strategy with sb cards (leyline anyone?) which makes it a slow beat/control deck with jace.  Still good, but not nearly as broken.  Landstill on the other hand doesn't have hate that can neuter it.  You just have to play through it and try to resolve a bomb and hope it doesn't get removed afterward.  Remora might be a nice attempt, but it is hardly a great answer.  It's no better than trygon, and trygon has all of about 2 turns to live vs the bolt/dismember list.

[credmond]

Let's clarify what has been said and where I stand and throw some additional stuff in there . . .

Landstill is a solid deck - yes I agree

Landstill is a versatile deck - yes I agree

Landstill is an unbeatable deck - no, not even close

Landstill is the dominant deck - no, no data to back that up

Landstill is a dominant deck - maybe and it could be, but currently people don't really see it as dominant so they don't pack stuff to fight it

Landstill is 65/35 vs the rest of the field - no, not even close



Remora is good tech vs. Landstill - yes, I agree (but not in isolation, test until you got a working package vs Landstill. TEST!)

Flusterstorm is good tech vs. Landstill - yes, I agree (but not in isolation, test until you got a working package vs Landstill. TEST!)

Duress is good tech vs. Landstill - yes, I agree (but not in isolation, test until you got a working package vs Landstill. TEST!)

Tarmogoyf  is good tech vs. Landstill - yes, I agree (but not in isolation, test until you got a working package vs Landstill. TEST!)

Stony Silence is good tech vs. EE Landstill  - yes, I agree  (but not in isolation, test until you got a working package vs Landstill. TEST!)

Swarm is good tech vs. Landstill  - yes, I agree  (but not in isolation, test until you got a working package vs Landstill. TEST!)

Storm is good tech vs. Landstill  - yes, I agree  (but not in isolation, test until you got a working package vs Landstill. TEST!)

Goblin welder is good tech vs. Landstill  - yes, I agree  (but not in isolation, test until you got a working package vs Landstill. TEST!)

Deathrite shaman is good tech vs. Landstill  - yes, I agree  (but not in isolation, test until you got a working package vs Landstill. TEST!)

Cavern of Souls is good tech vs. Landstill  - yes, I agree  (but not in isolation, test until you got a working package vs Landstill. TEST!)


Add'l info -

Terra Nova is a deck that can beat Landstill out of the box and seems to be one of the few decks designed with beating Landstill in mind


My observations -

Many good players don't understand how to properly play Landstill.

Many good players don't understand how to properly play against Landstill.

Many good players don't bother testing against Landstill.

Landstill enjoys a nice position in the meta where it can prey on other decks while not being directly the prey of any decks out there.

Lots of decks that are tough for Landstill are conveniently mostly absent from the current meta.

Sideboards aren't packing much to fight Landstill in particular.

Landstill thrives in metas where one or more archetype is absent (e.g. Dredge, Shops, Control, Combo, Aggro). A truly diverse meta is harder for Landstill to deal with. Accurately predicting what you don't have to worry about in the meta is a key landstill skill.

Sorry for the hiatus from the discussion - I had to go to work today.  I know you all missed me.

@credmond - yes, I posted something nearly identical to the bomberman thread, but as I stated, that was very hasty.  I posted that after one day of playtesting and through a limited gauntlet (notice I didn't list landstill as a deck it beats).  And I do believe I was a bit tipsy on that occassion.  Regardless, it is a very powerful deck with many answers.  It, too, can thrash many archetypes.

Landstill is the real deal however.  Pointing to tourney results in general doesn't do anything.  Point at Josh's tourney and you'll see the real truth.  Saying that other people don't place with it isn't good because they usually can't run the deck right or use a worse list.  Your argument is basically saying "thousands of people die via gunshot all the time, but hardly anyone died of a bazooka all year - therefore guns are more deadly than a bazooka".  That might be because nobody runs the bazooka since most of them don't even know how it works.  It's not as intuitive and simple as point/pull trigger.  In the hands of the more competent, and I give Josh all the props here, landstill is the more powerful weapon.

Yes, I get excited, and yes I troll an awful lot - but I usually only chime in where there is truth to my trolling.  Landstill i have tested a  lot against, and I am not jumping the gun on this one like I did on bomberman.  Also, bomberman can get hated out of a strategy with sb cards (leyline anyone?) which makes it a slow beat/control deck with jace.  Still good, but not nearly as broken.  Landstill on the other hand doesn't have hate that can neuter it.  You just have to play through it and try to resolve a bomb and hope it doesn't get removed afterward.  Remora might be a nice attempt, but it is hardly a great answer.  It's no better than trygon, and trygon has all of about 2 turns to live vs the bolt/dismember list.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

My current list is actually quick weak to an early tinker, due to missing chain, truth, sabotage, etc. The single hurks and mid game Jace is the only way. So for my current list that is a chink in the armor...

I actually tested against tera nova when it was first developed against some of the people who designed the deck so it's funny you bring it up. Playing against tera nova as the landstill pilot, you must play differently. You can't casually play standstill, you must get ahead first (crucible or jace). The key is to use creature removal on the lands, in addition to waste effects. In my testing vs it I was 4-2 preboard, and 8-6 postboard. The deck actually was designed in response to landstill and bomberman. But it crushes bomberman even harder then it does landstill.

I agree with a lot of what you just said Credmond, but I think landstill is more flexible then it used to be because of EE. There are cards that are good tech against landstill but all of it is beatable. There are very few cards that COMPLETELY beat landstill alone.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I currently know of 2 cards that "hose" standstill - after MUCH digging and testing.  One requires 2 cards, but is a very punishing blow and cheap.  The other is one card, but cheap and easily played.  There are a handful of cards that are a big nuisance to landstill, but they really have a poor chance of resolving and can be removed or played around easily enough.  I won't publicly divulge them for Josh's sake so I don't trash his chances in a meta where people expect him.  Nobody would play the cards much, but I think tossing the hint out there might cause Josh alone to face the hate in tourneys he typically owns.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I currently know of 2 cards that "hose" standstill - after MUCH digging and testing.  One requires 2 cards, but is a very punishing blow and cheap.  The other is one card, but cheap and easily played.  There are a handful of cards that are a big nuisance to landstill, but they really have a poor chance of resolving and can be removed or played around easily enough.  I won't publicly divulge them for Josh's sake so I don't trash his chances in a meta where people expect him.  Nobody would play the cards much, but I think tossing the hint out there might cause Josh alone to face the hate in tourneys he typically owns.

Haha I don't care man. But thanks. Like I said people will not change there decks to beat 1-2 playes. I will just continue to smash everyone

[Wagner]

Does the deck have a way to deal with a Blood Moon? Some TMWA or odd decks did play that a while back. Appart from hardcasting Jace by getting 2 islands out, I don't see many outs.

Also, I'd love to see shops or other decks pack Tsabo's Web, not an awesome card, but would be hilarious

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Does the deck have a way to deal with a Blood Moon? Some TMWA or odd decks did play that a while back. Appart from hardcasting Jace by getting 2 islands out, I don't see many outs.

Also, I'd love to see shops or other decks pack Tsabo's Web, not an awesome card, but would be hilarious

Blood moon is a problem, a big one haha. Hardcasting Jace, or If you are on a 3c landstill list you can premmaturely run EE on 3 out if you know about moon effect. Other then that, COUNTER IT dear lord haha

[TheWhiteDragon]

Yeah - blood moon and tsabo's web were two of the "lesser" problem cards.  Basic islands let you hardcast jace, and if you draw lotus you can EE for 3.  The big problem with Blood moon is you are running a red deck - which has very little chance of resolving a 3cc enchantment against landstill.  If you can toss out lotus and stick it turn 1, you have a shot if they don't have the FoW.  After turn 1, you contend with FoW and pierce as well as them dropping landstill or casting ancestral to dig deeper into FoW.  If you have to double mox to cast it on turn 1, mindbreak is now online.  Clearly it can be great on turn 1, but as we said, the turn 1 broken is the best way to do anything against landstill so they rely completely on their opening 7 with no mana.  But pushing through moon on red vs a blue counter deck is HARD.

Tsabo's web is cheaper and more widely playable...but it doesn't stop wastelands (they sac to do their job anyway) and factories can still be 2/2 blockers all day or a 3/3 once.  With crucible out, they have the same work around as they do with back to basics (another speed bump which is MUCH more likely to resolve as you are probably running counters yourself).  They can waste the factory and then replay the 2 lands over 2 turns.  Basically, it slows their clock in half - and they still have jace and 2/2 (3/3) blockers to protect him.  And then there are counters and hurkylls and ingot chewer/sabotage out of the sb...

There are still only 2 cards I see that can reliably buy significant time vs landstill.  One buys you a great amount of time, the other basically auto-wins if you have an aggro deck, or gives you SIGNIFICANT time if you aren't on aggro.

[Wagner]

Yeah - blood moon and tsabo's web were two of the "lesser" problem cards.  Basic islands let you hardcast jace, and if you draw lotus you can EE for 3.  The big problem with Blood moon is you are running a red deck - which has very little chance of resolving a 3cc enchantment against landstill. 

Pretty much all the decks with Blood Moon I've seen recently run Ancient Tomb and sometimes City of Traitors, often with Spirit Guide to get them out asap. Anyway, it's not a widespread card, but it's not at all impossible to resolve, especially after sideboard where a red deck will be bringing plenty of REB.

Same goes for Back to Basics, but we've still got to see a good deck that can support it.

[TheWhiteDragon]

A deck with blood moon and tombs and SSG can possibly push it through turn 1 with some success...but that's a deck build needed to support a play.  I'm looking more for answers that can be universal (Tsabo's is one) that can do any kind of damage to landstill.  So far, I found one that only fits certain aggro decks and one that is more crippling and can fit in a wide array of decks that can splash the color.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Since I have played legacy landstill for years now too,(with success in the smaller local scene) I remember facing dragon stompy a hand full of times and having to beat Blood Moon and friends. It's not easy, but EE worked great in that format as well. Best bet is try to not let it resolve obviously haha!

If Blood Moon saw more play UR landstill could possibly adapt and maybe go as far as running Disk again. Again I used to run this in legacy landstill as well and punished dragon stompy with it more then a few times. One of my vintage lists recently ran Disk as a 1 of, which was a ton of fun. There are ways around these strategies that tend to hurt landstill. But until these decks/strategies start popping up, I will not change my list...

Such a deck to support these random janky goodness cards has yet to be seen yet. But I am totally a fan of innovation and janky goodness HAHA!

[Samoht]

1) Deck is real.

2) Josh knows the deck well, and most other people don't know how to play against it. This applies to UW Bomberman as well. I don't understand how people can't figure out decks that have placed well for stretches as long as the two have. Kohler has been going for 9+ months now, and Josh had a 4 month run before taking time off for life reasons.

3) Deck is very weak to certain strategies, they just aren't common in our metagame.

[TheWhiteDragon]

1) Deck is real.

2) Josh knows the deck well, and most other people don't know how to play against it. This applies to UW Bomberman as well. I don't understand how people can't figure out decks that have placed well for stretches as long as the two have. Kohler has been going for 9+ months now, and Josh had a 4 month run before taking time off for life reasons.

3) Deck is very weak to certain strategies, they just aren't common in our metagame.

1) yes
2) yes
3) may I ask what strategies?  Turn 1 oath/tinker? (If so, I think main grafdiggers could solve that). Aggro?  Bolt and EEs seem to have that in check.  What strategies am I missing?

[orgcandman]

3) may I ask what strategies?  Turn 1 oath/tinker? (If so, I think main grafdiggers could solve that). Aggro?  Bolt and EEs seem to have that in check.  What strategies am I missing?

The deck loses to actual aggro, not the stuff that attempts to compete in the vintage metagame. As noted before, Oshawa Stompy was a strong anti-landstill giant about 10 years ago and was created as a direct response to Landstill. I'm not kidding when I say sleeving this up will show you that disk is a must.

The deck also loses to combo that gets to pack 4x brainstorm and wins by turn 3. Again, we don't have this in our metagame any longer.

Additionally, most EE based lists lose to resolved bloodmoon or b2b. In fact, Josh's latest list has NO OUT to one of those. Want to be landstill? Get those going. The problem is, the decks that will beat landstill won't be able to fight through a sea of stax AND TV-control AND oath AND dredge. Look at legacy - if landstill were SO amazing, it should be constantly crushing that format as well, yes? Hell, I'm guessing TMS or Riddler would probably crush landstill - why don't you sleeve those up again?

One further comment, most of what you, and Josh have said is absurd. 65% vs. the metagame? Any deck that can post that needs restriction because it's clearly broken. Landstill is a fun deck to play, and it's easy to metagame it to beat up 60-player events. Mega large events (100+ players) likely won't see landstill winning, and this is due to a number of factors. Random blowouts, the inability to combo win causing lots of UDs, the inability for landstill to pack enough metagame answers to beat a truly diverse field, and fatigue after round 5 of going to time almost every match causing most pilots to make game-losing mistakes. This is not the deck to take to Gencon, but it is the deck to take a 40-man for reasons stated here and elsewhere.

[credmond]

Slaver and TPS were decks that could deal effectively with Landstill in the past.

Blood Moon slaver is a deck that could be really good predator on Landstill without sucking to the rest of the field. What's nice about slaver is that the use of welder puts a lot of pressure on the Landstill player. Sure Landstill has answers to welder but the key is it has to have answers quickly to welder. You can't throw a standstill on the board with welder in play. And while you are busy keeping welder off the board, BAM!, blood moon is there to contend with. Having a high density of stuff that the Landstill player absolutely has to deal with quickly is one key to beating Landstill.

Tsabo's Web is an artifact and is no where near as problematic as an enchantment like Blood Moon.

In a diverse meta, cards like chain and truth start to show their worth, but using those cards start to spread Landstill suite of answers thin.

Chain of vapor . . .  I like chain. It pops in my lists from time to time and has proven a solid answer to early Jaces and early Salvagers and of course is handy at dealing with stuff like Blood Moon and the occasional Tinker Bot and turn one Oath.

[Samoht]

play merfolk with cavern of souls against landstill as many times as you like. it doesn't end well for landstill more times than not.

[Tha Gunslinga]

As a Landstill player, I can handle a fair amount of aggro out there, but the fancier aggro like GW is less scary than something like Oshawa, with, god forbid, Thrun.  Blood Moon is NOT fun, but Tsabo's Web would be barely relevant.  I know Josh's list is weaker vs Blood Moon, but my current one is pretty strong against it, with 4 Islands, 3 Jace, 3 Snapcaster, and 2 Vendilion Clique.  Unless your deck can play through Blood Moon with no problem, I will be ok.  What I would be worried about it a mono-red list with Blood Moons, or something similar.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

3) may I ask what strategies?  Turn 1 oath/tinker? (If so, I think main grafdiggers could solve that). Aggro?  Bolt and EEs seem to have that in check.  What strategies am I missing?

The deck loses to actual aggro, not the stuff that attempts to compete in the vintage metagame. As noted before, Oshawa Stompy was a strong anti-landstill giant about 10 years ago and was created as a direct response to Landstill. I'm not kidding when I say sleeving this up will show you that disk is a must.

The deck also loses to combo that gets to pack 4x brainstorm and wins by turn 3. Again, we don't have this in our metagame any longer.

Additionally, most EE based lists lose to resolved bloodmoon or b2b. In fact, Josh's latest list has NO OUT to one of those. Want to be landstill? Get those going. The problem is, the decks that will beat landstill won't be able to fight through a sea of stax AND TV-control AND oath AND dredge. Look at legacy - if landstill were SO amazing, it should be constantly crushing that format as well, yes? Hell, I'm guessing TMS or Riddler would probably crush landstill - why don't you sleeve those up again?

One further comment, most of what you, and Josh have said is absurd. 65% vs. the metagame? Any deck that can post that needs restriction because it's clearly broken. Landstill is a fun deck to play, and it's easy to metagame it to beat up 60-player events. Mega large events (100+ players) likely won't see landstill winning, and this is due to a number of factors. Random blowouts, the inability to combo win causing lots of UDs, the inability for landstill to pack enough metagame answers to beat a truly diverse field, and fatigue after round 5 of going to time almost every match causing most pilots to make game-losing mistakes. This is not the deck to take to Gencon, but it is the deck to take a 40-man for reasons stated here and elsewhere.

I never once stated I was 65% vs the entire meta game. I feel as though when I personally sit down in a match, I am not at a disadvantage for what I am playing. As I, again...PERSONALLY feel I am not a dog in any matchup that exists in the current meta. As the meta shifts and changes so do my lists...

As far as landstill not good at huge events such as gencon, I disagree. This past year was my first time playing at such an event. And like I said before. I lost my win and in round to a nOOb playing dredge when he didn't even know what factory did. This was on turn 5 after time was called. I was previously 3-0 vs dredge at gencon. I beat every "real" archetype with this deck. I would agree with this deck being not the choice at a big event 5 years ago. That is when landstill didn't have toe tools to fight everything. It had to fight a narrow meta game and ultimately lose to what it was under prepared for. The current lists running 9-11 turn 0/1 counters stop blowout wins, and EE has made this deck more flexible then ever. So time will tell where this deck ends up going but I hope to be going to gencon for a while from now on so we'll see what happens.

I feel like saying this deck can't win large events and has to attack a narrow meta game is a thing of the past and not neccessarily true. This may be just my opinion bc again, most people probably aren't as good at playing nor building a proper landstill deck

[credmond]

Landstill benefits currently from a pretty narrow meta. If I were having to fight TPS as a top player in the meta, I would start to want the EE to be null rods. EE hits the sweet spot of this current meta.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I felt like the last year or so of vintage (on the east coast anyway) has been very diverse. As long as shops stays around and doesn't see a restriction I think true storm combo will stay where it is with only a seldom player here and there playing it...Maybe there are less options nowadays in vintage bc of shops? Not sure...

[credmond]

Whether the meta is more diverse or not with shops at the top, shops has a huge effect on the meta. And, it is certainly to Landstill's benefit that shops stays as a top contender since we are a natural predator on shops. Any deck that would hate on us has to do so in a way that doesn't wreck their shop matchup, among others.

I felt like the last year or so of vintage (on the east coast anyway) has been very diverse. As long as shops stays around and doesn't see a restriction I think true storm combo will stay where it is with only a seldom player here and there playing it...Maybe there are less options nowadays in vintage bc of shops? Not sure...

[Tha Gunslinga]

My meta is totally random, and I play LandStill because it can handle anything I face.

[Prospero]

Guys, name calling, innuendo and other nonsense meant to degrade other players will not be tolerated.  This is TMD, this isn't MTG Salvation.  We have standards and we adhere to them.

[TheWhiteDragon]

My meta is totally random, and I play LandStill because it can handle anything I face.

I agree with this.  I don't play it for a couple reasons, but it is a deck I fear no matter what I sleeve up.  The free counters + 7 critter removal cards (not counting factories with crucible) is really hard for even an aggro deck to plow through.  I only run R/B decks these days, and the most aggro, blood moon packing, bolt wielding, cavern using, wasteland maxed deck I can make consistently loses to landstill.   It is just very resilient with all of the tools available too it now.  I think null rod is a decent sb card for it to swap out EEs should it face burning long or TPS...but there's not much that needs improvement.  Nev's disk is fantastic, and I'd actually think it could replace 1 of the EEs.  Adding in chain of vapor also helps against the turn 1 nuts or cards like moon...and I think cutting to 25 mana instead of 26 could easily accommodate that.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

26 mana ensures you can harass shops mana base as continue to make land drops after that. The room for chain or other bounce spells comes in cutting a jace or cutting a creature removal. I would definitely not cut a mana source in the current meta...

These are subtle changes I make every few months as the meta ever so slightly changes. Landstill is about tweaking the deck and sb to reflect what you expect in the meta...