Human Ingenuity

[brianpk80]

Congrats on the finish. That being said I'll never draw 1 x Batterskull, 1 x SFM in the correct order. Nor will I ever draw my 1 Cage vs. Oath or Dredge. Why no Vampiric Tutor? You have Scrubland. Sometimes you just need Strip Mine / Wasteland.

Thank you.  Vampiric Tutor is a reasonable option.  There are a lot of solid choices after the core Humans but only so many slots.  I was using SfM/BSkull for a clock, a good play v. Workshops, and lifegain, which is sometimes necessary when running Bob but no dedicated Bob management like Sensei's. 

Caverns, only needs to put out a couple threats to ask the opponent what they are doing. Usually this is a Thalia and a Bob or a Thalia and a Mayor. You can sit back at that point and make them search for answers, if they don't you will be able to get easily ahead and convert that into a win. This works because Thalia stops any deck from going too broken, and bob or mayor both generate value the more they are around.
...

Everything in that post is correct except the part about using Mana Crypt which is more questionable.  The 2-for-1 Humans are very key v. Control and Workshop.  Combo is managed post sideboard when you have Mindbreak Traps, Misstep, Stony Silence, Thalia, Meddling Mage, True Believers, Grafdigger's, Wastelands, and Ethersworn Canonist.  Sin Collector will probably be good here as well.  I usually side out the cards that shine v. aggro.   

[Guli]

Congratulations to Brian on yet another top 8 (5th this time) in Bloomsberg. He has been consistently up there since he made an appearance.


Meanwhile, we have been busy making progress with the deck. Her is the evolution to the deck.

Sin collector is a card that, in my mind, replaces Glowrider. Glowrider is nice but does not do any card advantage. These days, we find it more and more important to use your slots in a more durable way. Sin Collector is a card that can nab something important from their hand that they could not have played because of Thalia. There is an extra copy in the Sideboard to pre-emptively strike on mass removal like Pyroclasm or to get rid of cards like Tinker and Y will before they build up mana to play them. It is also very useful to get rid of those Abrupt Decay or Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt.

Secondly, Stoneforge is also a card that gives us card advantage. But it also fits in the theme of 'uncounterable effects'. The card is really good in aggro wars (including Workshop). For now the Sword choice is Light and Shadow, it has a regrowth effect, which is another engine within an engine to make their removal do nothing in the long run. Put it on a 2 thougness bear and the only thing that can remove it is probably Jace. But Jace likes to draw cards, not bounce, especially against Caverns.

Lastly, also fitting in the uncounterable theme, is Abrupt Decay. It helps us clean the board against aggro, but it most importantly gives us game against Crucible and Oath in game 1. It is a reliable removal that does not require protection in 99% of the cases (trap).

I adjusted the mana base, adding a plains, and it is 3 colors again. Karakas and Mutavault are utility lands proven to be good over time. I also have a Maze of Ith, which I use in both offense as in defence (untap after damage is possible). Just those little subtle additions slot wise, and in the end you have just about enough slots to fight big things like Emrakul, BlightSteel, etc.. (again with effects that can not be countered).

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

2 Mutavault
1 Karakas

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant

2 Fiend Hunter
2 Sin Collector
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Ethersworn Canonist

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maze of Ith

SB: 2 War Priest of Thune
SB: 1 True Believer
SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Sin Collector
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Scavenger Folk
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter

What I would like to see is a human with an etb Revoke Existence ability without a drawback. They would probably replace fiend hunter and with some other adjustments I would up the count to 4. A man can dream...

[xouman]

I like the list a lot. Much more aggressive than I'm used in a "fish" deck without tarmos. In exchange it loses hate factor, isn't it? And seems a bit vulnerable to quick openings, as early tinker/vault/oath. On the other side, aggro feels easier than ever.

How many turns do you need to do 20 points of damage on average? An opener with a 2/1, T2 another 2/1 and attack for 2, T3 mayor and attack for 6, T4 attack for x and T5 lethal seems best normal scenario. I understand that T4 kills are not that hard, but are not extremely common.

I suspect that nobody plays blood moon in your metagame. I have seen lists with similar manabase folding against T1-T2 blood moons, even without null rod or chalice.

Is dredge kept at bay? best plan seems to strip bazaar until you find RIP, and attack to death before dredge player gets in.

Good job in the designing and congrats to brian with his results!

[Guli]

Counting the amount of turns to deal 20 damage can be misleading. The deck plays a tempo game and strives for control and card advantage. Sometimes a Thalia and a Wasteland can mean multiple time walks.

I agree that the list does not run any Stony Silence and this means it is weaker to some decks running high amounts of artifacts and the TV kill. However, it does have the maindeck Thalia's, with Canonist and the Sin Collectors. This is not hate by the numbers but these cards are very EFFECTIVE in what they do. My meta has Oath, Landstill, Bomberman, a lot Fish/Beat/Aggro and Grixis control. On occasion Gush decks pop up, not many dredge.

Like I said, I believe that a Human for 2cc with the ability of Revoke Existence can make this archetype 'complete'. It would become an immediate 4x staple core bear in the deck and open up some interesting synergies with maybe a flicker or bounce effect here and there. From that point on, it will be skilled piloting that will determine how this archetype will perform, you will have all the necessary tools.

[psyburat]

Congratulations to Brian on yet another top 8 (5th this time) in Bloomsberg. He has been consistently up there since he made an appearance.

For the record, that was the third time in Bloomsburg, although in a row is quite the achievement.

My question is this:  Why congratulate a player, and dismiss his build in favor of a different direction?  The biggest detriment to new archetypes is when players insist on fixing something that isn't broken (something that's rampant in the Bomberman thread as well), and I wonder if you even took the chance to play his build before dismissing it for something else that will not even see the light of day.

[xouman]

decks can be high-dependant or fairly-independant on the rest of the metagame. Dredge has to know what hate can expect, but it's core strategy is clear. Oath also has no doubt that main objective is to put the enchantment into play, although there are builds with show and tell. Mud plays spheres. Control has more work, chosing a draw engine, and proper permission depending on the field.

But fish alike decks are another history. Stony silence can be a meh card, or a truly winner. Thalia is awesome, but in a meta filled with creatures is worse than lots of cards. Fish has to deal with any strategy, since it's probably slower, and a perfect 75 in one tournament could need 10 cards replacement for another tournament. Besides, people have different ways of playing same cards and feel more confident with tweaked strategies.

Guli and brian are probably from very different places. I find normal that Guli is always looking for changes to his creation, specially since it's not a tier 1 played by hundreds of people, and it's not clear which is the best configuration. Of course trying brian's 75 is a good start, but someone familiarized with the deck can make changes.

[Guli]

Congratulations to Brian on yet another top 8 (5th this time) in Bloomsberg. He has been consistently up there since he made an appearance.

For the record, that was the third time in Bloomsburg, although in a row is quite the achievement.

My question is this:  Why congratulate a player, and dismiss his build in favor of a different direction?  The biggest detriment to new archetypes is when players insist on fixing something that isn't broken (something that's rampant in the Bomberman thread as well), and I wonder if you even took the chance to play his build before dismissing it for something else that will not even see the light of day.

Hi, thanks for the question. Well, you can practically call us a team, we regularly test and tune online. In this case, his metagame was taken into account. I congratulate Brian because he is my friend and I am proud of the results. I have played against his build, with the decks that are in his meta And we reflected on these games.

If I had a chance, I would also attend a Vintage event, but the circumstances don't allow for that here (this can change, maybe next year at BoM).

Note that these versions of Caverns are very open to personal design taste. But the grand scheme of things is, there have been new additions. Brian for example used only 1 Sin Collector main deck, I am using 2. He opts for only 1 Stoneforge, while I am going for 3 and more equipment. The reason is Stony Silence, he uses that as a disruptive card. I go for Canonist main deck (and more Collector as I mentioned). Abrupt Decay is another example of a new addition. Exava is a card Brian really wanted to test out in the meta, sadly he reported that he didn't draw it. We could discuss that card if you want. I wanted to point out these small but relevant evolutions, to keep this thread up to date for those who are interested in the Cavern builds.

Did I adequately answer your question? I want to note though, that I find your question a bit odd, but I decided to gently reply to it anyway. Any other questions you would like to ask?

[brianpk80]

Thanks for the comments.  

This is a list and mini-report from the event with explanations of some card choices.

Quarter-Finalist – Brian Kelly
“Mayor Fish”

Core:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Deathrite Shaman

Extra Clock:
1 Exava, Rakdos Bloodwitch
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

Removal:
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Stony Silence

2-for-1 Humans:
1 Sin Collector
1 Shardless Agent
1 Eternal Witness
1 Lyev Skyknight

Ancestral:
1 Ancestral Recall

5C Lands:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine

Fetches/Duals:
2 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Savannah

Strip/Utility:
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas
1 Mishra’s Factory

5ML:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet

SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Extirpate
1 Sin Collector
1 Pithing Needle
1 Skylasher
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 True Believer
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra’s Factory
1 Rayne, Academy Chancellor

First, it was clear from the start that none of the regular Dredge players were present so that freed up a little sideboard space for some experimental slots: Rayne, Academy Chancellor (multi-match), Skylasher (Bomberman), and Sigarda, Host of Herons (U/R Landstill, BUG, and aggro w. StP).  I debated putting in something specifically for Empty the Warrens but declined.  

I organized the list to have a better game against the control decks here, specifically by including the 2-for-1's that are unprofitable for Jace to bounce.  Since there's a Cavern in play ~60-65% of the time and over half the deck produces mana, it's safe to use 3 and even 4 casting cost creatures whereas that was riskier when Mana Drain was a 4x and there was no Cavern.  I put 1 of each since they're of comparable quality but aren't necessarily great in heavy multiples. Sin Collector is a notch above the rest but is useless v. workshop.  I would consider running 2 maindeck in addition to a 3rd in the sideboard unless the field was all Shop & Dredge.  Eternal Witness is great, but I wouldn't want to see 2 of them in an opening hand with an empty graveyard so 1 is the number.  Lyev Skynight is a tempo play; it's a 3/1 Flyer for 1WU that detains any nonland permanent when it comes into play, including mana sources and planeswalkers. Depending on context, it's either used to shut off a Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Deathrite for a turn to tighten a soft lock, to force through attackers, or to nullify a planeswalker for a turn by detaining it and then attacking it with flying (and probably Exalted).  Shardless Agent is high variance.  It's great to flip over Stony Silence, Bob, Mayor of Avabruck, or Thalia if she's not in play, but there are times when you gamble on it as a critical play and if it fizzles then, that leaves you in a bad spot.  Right now, I'd replace it w. Sin Collector x2.            

Exava is in here instead of Mayor #4.  She's serving the same function (clock) but with disruption aimed more towards Jace, like Slash Panther.  

Round 1 Oath, Win 2-1

First match was with Chris playing Oath and transformational Gush sideboard.  I kept an opening hand that included land, acceleration, Mayor of Avabruck, and 2 Abrupt Decays.  He was on the play and cast Vampiric Tutor at the end of my turn for Oath of Druids.  IIRC, he told me he had double counter back-up for it.  Some time after I Abrupt Decayed it, I remember casting Shardless Agent into Thalia while he was setting up a Regrowth + Oath which limited his options.  Next turn I drew another Mayor and played it making Shardless 4/4 and Thalia 4/3 so things got lethal quickly.  

I boarded in Traps, Ethersworns, True Believer, Cage, Rayne, Factory, Wasteland, and took out the Aggro suite, a Marsh Flats, 1 StP, and 1 Noble Hierarch.  He opens with Lotus Petal, Ancestral, and six more spells including Fastbond & Gush I think to produce 16 Goblin tokens.  I smiled since I had just mentioned to a friend maybe 15 minutes prior before the tournament started that I didn't think there'd be much Warrens.  

Game 3 I kept mainly the same sideboard since Storm hate and Oath hate overlap.  I opened with Cavern, Mox, Bob. On my second turn Bob revealed Ethersworn Canonist and I think my opponent gave it a dirty look.  I played the Canonist. Not long after, he played Show and Tell and I put the card into play face down.  He flips over Griselbrand; I flip over Fiend Hunter and vanquish the demon.  That was one of the best moments of the day.  He decided not to draw because there was a Canonist in play and the life loss would have made passing the turn lethal.  I attacked him again and played more creatures.  On his next turn he played Empty the Warrens for a mere 2 Goblins because of Ethersworn.  I attacked with everything including the Canonist then since he was very low on life and had no plausible outs.  He conceded next turn.  

Very pleasant & friendly player who knew his deck well.

Round 2 Shops, Win 2-0

v. Rob Edwards on Martello Shops.  The match ended pretty quickly, but some things I remember were that he played a Chalice @ 1 that a Noble Hierarch snuck through via Cavern and then a Mayor.  In game 2, I had an early Bob and a lot of removal & draw.  I played Rayne, Academy Chancellor at some point to deter Wastelands.  When the game ended, he made a symbolic gesture of Wasting 4 of my lands and so I drew 4 cards.  After the match, we had a lot of time left so we played a game for fun.  I played first, mulled to 6, and played Thalia.  This game went on forever, a crowd gathered, there were Fiend Hunters exiling Metamorphs of Fiend Hunters and a Metamorph of a Duplicant targeting a Fiend Hunter that targeted a Metamorph of a Fiend Hunter that came back into play as a Metamorph of a Duplicant which then targeted some other creature.  The board state was so bizarre I started to get a headache keeping track of everything and he won at the end at 1 life with some play involving Forgemaster fetching a clone of clone of a Fiend Hunter and me topdecking a land instead of a creature needed to block something.  My next opponent thanked Rob for leaving me mentally drained.    

Round 3 UW Landstill, Win 2-0

Before the tournament began, Ryan asked if I would be using any of the new Humans from Dragon's Maze, for instance "Sin Collector?"  I said "maybe" but I grinned which was a dead giveaway.  In Game 1 I was brutal with Wastelands and then played an Eternal Witness bringing back another Wasteland and he didn't develop board presence.  In Game 2, he played Standstill on his third turn and I had to break it to play Bob.  I didn't board in Sigarda because he uses Supreme Verdict so it's not the brutal beating it is against U/R Landstill.  The game was eventless for a few turns after he Plowed Bob, and he eventually had three lands and seven cards in hand.  Plains, Flooded Strand, Mishra's.  I played Sin Collector off a Cavern revealing 2 Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap, Mana Drain, Spell Snare, Mental Misstep, and Supreme Verdict.  I exiled the Verdict.  He drew nothing but counters for a while and kept discarding them.  Eventually, he played a Snapcaster and Flashed back a Swords.  I drew a Wasteland and Wasted his factory and attacked with 3 creatures that each had 2 power, while he was at 4 life.  He blocked 1 with the Snapcaster but the other 4 damage got through.  
        
Next Round - Intentional Draw w. Vito who was playing Gush

Round After - Justin, Vito, and I were tied for first in the Swiss and there were only one or two matches being played to round out the Top 8.  

T8 UW Bomberman, Loss 1-2

I played against Matt Murray a protege of Justin's who was playing his exact list.  Game 1, I played Cavern, Mox, Bob and outpaced him.  A turn or two before I had lethal, he drew a Swords to Plowshares which he recognized as being from his sideboard and said he couldn't continue the game in good faith.  I said that since it was an honest mistake and he was forthright, I wouldn't force a game loss on him but he said it didn't matter since the game was lost anyway and it wouldn't be consistent with his ethics.  Kudos for integrity.  

I boarded in Skylasher, Pithing Needle, Extirpate, Rayne, and Trap for Deathrite Shaman (the match where inability to exile artifacts in a graveyard matters), 1 Thalia (usually take one out on the draw), 1 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Abrupt Decay, and 1 Noble Hierarch.  I swapped 1 Wasteland for a Factory since I've never had much success significantly disrupting this deck with Wastes; it seems to have unlimited Islands.  Since Bomberman is trimodal, it's a difficult match for sideboarding because if you go overboard trying to stop the combo, you lose focus on what really makes the deck tick and open yourself up to its other angles of attack.  

Game 2, I remember having 2 Noble Hierarchs, Cavern, Mox, Wasteland, and Mayor in the opening.  I played a very early Mayor; it flipped into Howlpack Alpha.  I played another Mayor but kept the second Hierarch in hand.  A 3/3 Wolf token came into play at EoT and there was suddenly a ridiculous amount of damage on the board.  He had two lands, which wouldn't be enough to Trinket Mage for Engineered Explosives @ 0 (the CMC of flipped cards and tokens) and activate it.  Unfortunately, that wasn't necessary cause he had the singleton Explosives in hand which he played for 0, killing Alpha, the Wolf, and Mox.  However, the second Mayor hadn't flipped so its CMC was 2.  I played the Hierarch and attacked.  He played Jace.  I played Lyev Skyknight, detaining the Jace and then killing it.  He played another Jace and I remember having a Skylasher.  Skylasher is special here because Bomberman thrives on protecting Jace w. countermagic (15 counterspells maindeck?), its bounce ability, AEther Spellbomb, Trinket Mages, and Vendilion Clique as blockers.  Few cards can slip past such a varied firewall.  Skylasher is one; it doesn't survive explosives (but you should play it after they burn the singleton EE), StP, or attacking into a surprise Aven Mindcensor.  Lasher can also protect against mid-game Vendilion beats which get out of hand very quickly.  Well lo and behold, the singleton Aven showed up.  I had a Fiend Hunter I was holding in hand w. Cavern for the Auriok Salvagers.  He had only 1 white source at the time so I remember thinking if he played the Salvagers, he'd have to pass the turn before combo-ing out.  But I couldn't let him Brainstorm every turn with an Aven Mindcensor blocking the Jace so I Fiend Huntered the Aven and killed Jace w. an Exalted Skylasher.  Next turn, he used a shuffle effect and spun the Divining Top and Auriok Salvagers was the top card.  That was terminal.

Game 3 I did not have a Mox in hand, but I had Thalia, City of Brass, Bob, Wasteland, Strip Mine, and 2 cards I can't remember.  I saw early game mana constriction as a viable option, being on the play and having Strip Mine for the evil card, Island.  He played a land and a Mana Crypt, and over the course of the game (7-9 turns) he won every die roll except two.  I got rid of his land, but he bounced Thalia with Jace and couldn't be tied down w. Wastelands.  I had the option of playing Shardless Agent or Rayne, Academy Chancellor and went with Shardless, Cascading a Swords to Plowshares that didn't advance my gameplan much.  I wish I'd played Rayne.  I played Stony Silence but it was Spell Snared.  That hurts.  I was killed by a Vendilion Clique.  

It was another fun Saturday at TPG.  

As for the decklist, it's pretty tailored for the local scene.  Despite ultimately losing to Bomberman, the list was much better prepared for it than last month's and none of the games were blow-outs.  It was a good match, very engaging and worthwhile. Any suggestions are welcome.  

Also, as a reminder, the sideboard had changes at the last minute to reflect the fact that none of the Dredge players were present and we were 99.9% sure that no one would be playing it.                

That's all!

[boggyb]

Excellent excellent excellent. Thanks for the detailed report.

One small question -- why no Time Walk? Seems it'd be huge in a deck like this. I'd think Shardless or one of your other weaker 1-of's could easily be replaced by it.

[brianpk80]

Excellent excellent excellent. Thanks for the detailed report.

One small question -- why no Time Walk? Seems it'd be huge in a deck like this. I'd think Shardless or one of your other weaker 1-of's could easily be replaced by it.

It's a good question. Sometimes Time Walk is excellent and sometimes it's uncastable.  I tested both Time Walk and Demonic Tutor. They're great when they work but the problem with 2-CC Sorceries is that they're bad in the Workshop match because of Spheres, Tangle Wire, and Thalia and could require an awkward fetch (can't be played w. the 5C Cavern mana) and v. control, Cavern is having the effect of filling opponent's hand with useless counters so giving them a viable counter target undercuts one of the deck's main benefits, especially since Spell Snare is rampant in this area.  It ranges from game-changing to uncastable, so it's a high variance choice but it's not unplayable.  Since I loaded the maindeck with cards primed for control matches, the compromise was to cut down on cards that are dead or diminished in the Workshop match, like Grafdigger's Cage and Mental Misstep, and not running Time Walk or Demonic Tutor.  Neither one of those is off the radar though and they're good targets for Eternal Witness, so I might try them again in the future.      

[StanleyAugust]

He flips over Griselbrand; I flip over Fiend Hunter and vanquish the demon.  That was one of the best moments of the day.

I didn't think that was possible?

[Guli]

Since it is a triggered ability when entering the battlefield, i do not see the problem.

He flips over Griselbrand; I flip over Fiend Hunter and vanquish the demon.  That was one of the
 best moments of the day.

I didn't think that was possible?

It does raze another point, it appears a removal which can not be responded too (caverns , decay, karakas,...) is in most cases, granted the humans deck had a thalia or canonist, enough to sealgame. The exception is stp because of lodestone golem.

[StanleyAugust]

Since it is a triggered ability when entering the battlefield, i do not see the problem.

He flips over Griselbrand; I flip over Fiend Hunter and vanquish the demon.  That was one of the
 best moments of the day.

I didn't think that was possible?

hybride
It does raze another point, it appears a removal which can not be responded too (caverns , decay, karakas,...) is in most cases, granted the humans deck had a thalia or canonist, enough to sealgame. The exception is stp because of lodestone golem.

Hybride? I don't follow...

[brianpk80]

He flips over Griselbrand; I flip over Fiend Hunter and vanquish the demon.  That was one of the best moments of the day.

I didn't think that was possible?

You're probably thinking of the Phyrexian Metamorph interaction w. Show and Tell which doesn't work because of timing rules.  Metamorph is not a triggered ability but Fiend Hunter is so it foils Show and Tell.  And it never gets old. 

[Guli]

Since it is a triggered ability when entering the battlefield, i do not see the problem.

He flips over Griselbrand; I flip over Fiend Hunter and vanquish the demon.  That was one of the
 best moments of the day.

I didn't think that was possible?

hybride
It does raze another point, it appears a removal which can not be responded too (caverns , decay, karakas,...) is in most cases, granted the humans deck had a thalia or canonist, enough to sealgame. The exception is stp because of lodestone golem.

Hybride? I don't follow...

was writing from phone. It has the tendency to generate words on itself.

[StanleyAugust]

Since it is a triggered ability when entering the battlefield, i do not see the problem.

He flips over Griselbrand; I flip over Fiend Hunter and vanquish the demon.  That was one of the
 best moments of the day.

I didn't think that was possible?

hybride
It does raze another point, it appears a removal which can not be responded too (caverns , decay, karakas,...) is in most cases, granted the humans deck had a thalia or canonist, enough to sealgame. The exception is stp because of lodestone golem.

Hybride? I don't follow...

was writing from phone. It has the tendency to generate words on itself.

Right... Still don't know what you meant, though. Thanks for the explanation, Brian. I didn't know there was a difference between Fiend Hunter and Metamorph, but nice to know!

[Stormanimagus]

I would have you guys know that fiend hunter still won't prevent them from drawing 7-14 cards if they wish. They can respond to the trigger by activating brand's ability.

[Stormanimagus]

And FWIW, here's the human list I'd play if I had a tourney tomorrow:

Humans!


Land (22):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mishra’s Factory

Artifacts (7):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Plains
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Batterskull

Enchantments (2):
2 Stony Silence

Creatures (25):
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mayor Of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Sin Collector
2 Notion Thief

Instants (3):
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk


Sideboard
1 Stony Silence
1 Sin Collector
1 Notion Thief
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Rest in Peace
1 Mishra’s Factory
1 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stoneforge Mystic


I think that the one thing I'd like for this list is 3 D. Shaman. I'm not sold on Pridemage either, but I feel like hard removal against shops is pretty essential. Perhaps the STP's fill this niche, but I'm uncertain that they are good enough. Maybe I can just run more STP's though and have that be good enough, but I don't like opening myself up to chalice @1 being good.

-Storm

[Guli]

We have been testing non stop these past months and decided that uncounterable effects like Decay, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Extirpate are very good in Caverns. The reason is that they still don't get to use there Counter Magic or Chalice. This is why I think we need to keep an eye on cards like Krosan Grip, Whipe Away and Trickbind. Also, lands with abilities fall into this category. Or non human creature or cards that just say 'can not be countered'.

Notion Thief has shown to be hard to pull off because of the casting cost. And the card asks for Standstill, I would not run it without. Which makes it problematic slot wise and I concluded that it needs a different design approach. I think a UB landstill control deck might be good with bobs, notion thiefs, standstil, trinket mage, explosives, crucible, manlands, demonic, a darkblast, edict, sabotage, jace ...

Also, the workshop match up is so tight, that you only get to cast a time walk or ancestral recall when they draw a soft hand or when you already stabilized. You need every bit of mana you can get sometimes, this is also true against decks like Doomsday or other fast combo. I don't run Mental Mistep either, which protects recall. So I just decided to go for a bit more stable mana base with 3 colors, less damage, 1 basic plain. The blue is not what makes this deck work. It is the cumulative cards advantage you build up WHILE building BOARD PRESENCE the idea is to overwhelm them eventually. Some matches are just so tight you need your scrubland and can't afford to draw or fetch a Tundra or Tropical.

There is a difference between a card that generates value without the help of a second card and a card that might generate value, given there is a secondary factor (your opponents plays a card that triggers it, or you play something in addition) Notion Thief is a great example of this, yes it is extremely powerful in what it does, however a card like Eternal Witness does not need another condition, it will always get something back like a wasteland, a creatures that died, a removal spell you played. These types of cards can also never be bounced by your opponent beneficially and if they play a removal on them, they have 1v2 themselves.

This is why I am taking Sin Collector with me on the journey with Caverns, but not Notion Thief. Deathrite Shaman is a great card in addition to our Noble package. I use only 1, but it is an important slot.

I think your version with Knight is better, more efficient.

[Stormanimagus]

We have been testing non stop these past months and decided that uncounterable effects like Decay, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Extirpate are very good in Caverns. The reason is that they still don't get to use there Counter Magic or Chalice. This is why I think we need to keep an eye on cards like Krosan Grip, Whipe Away and Trickbind. Also, lands with abilities fall into this category. Or non human creature or cards that just say 'can not be countered'.

Notion Thief has shown to be hard to pull off because of the casting cost. And the card asks for Standstill, I would not run it without. Which makes it problematic slot wise and I concluded that it needs a different design approach. I think a UB landstill control deck might be good with bobs, notion thiefs, standstil, trinket mage, explosives, crucible, manlands, demonic, a darkblast, edict, sabotage, jace ...

Also, the workshop match up is so tight, that you only get to cast a time walk or ancestral recall when they draw a soft hand or when you already stabilized. You need every bit of mana you can get sometimes, this is also true against decks like Doomsday or other fast combo. I don't run Mental Mistep either, which protects recall. So I just decided to go for a bit more stable mana base with 3 colors, less damage, 1 basic plain. The blue is not what makes this deck work. It is the cumulative cards advantage you build up WHILE building BOARD PRESENCE the idea is to overwhelm them eventually. Some matches are just so tight you need your scrubland and can't afford to draw or fetch a Tundra or Tropical.

There is a difference between a card that generates value without the help of a second card and a card that might generate value, given there is a secondary factor (your opponents plays a card that triggers it, or you play something in addition) Notion Thief is a great example of this, yes it is extremely powerful in what it does, however a card like Eternal Witness does not need another condition, it will always get something back like a wasteland, a creatures that died, a removal spell you played. These types of cards can also never be bounced by your opponent beneficially and if they play a removal on them, they have 1v2 themselves.

This is why I am taking Sin Collector with me on the journey with Caverns, but not Notion Thief. Deathrite Shaman is a great card in addition to our Noble package. I use only 1, but it is an important slot.

I think your version with Knight is better, more efficient.

Agreed that I'm sorta just speculating that Notion Thief could work here. My question is: if you think my Knight version is so solid then why don't you or Brian play that version? Clearly you don't really feel Knight cuts it.

Personally I don't like 1 random karakas and 1 random maze of ith WITHOUT Knight. I think you'll just so rarely draw it when you really need it and you'll far more frequently draw it when drawing it means losing the game. Like, Karakas doesn't even really stop the Grisel-Oath decks as most of them don't rely on grisel getting to the attack step, but can often find a way to combo out by drawing 7 and then burning wishing for removal/balance or burning wishing for like Empty the Warrens or something. I think Karakas is probably pretty weak sauce overall and even in the 1 match-up where you want it I'd usually rather draw something else instead (like something to deal with Oath itself).

I dunno, I'm pretty torn as to whether Knight is any good. I love the utility/pyroclasm protection he provides, but I also know he tends to be my most "bleh" card vs. shops and against combo he can often just be too slow.

I'm not saying that Notion Thief is a wise alternative, but I do like that Notion Thief is instant speed (though I think that if you pass the turn with 2UB up you are basically telegraphing that you have him and your opponent probably won't Jace for +3 cards). Ultimately, I think the fundamental issue one runs into with any version of Humans is a single game-ending finisher. Once you establish board control with this deck you HAVE to put the game away relatively quickly or you risk giving your opponent too many turns to draw out of trouble (Think about the Oath player sitting on no Oath or the shop pilot eagerly awaiting a Wurmcoil Engine to bail himself out). So what is our finisher? Brian seems content running 1x SFM and 1x Batterskull, but I don't particularly think that is reliable enough. This is why I used to be such a proponent of Knight. It is a finisher that doesn't require a team (ala Mayor of Avabruck) to be effective. It pulls double duty as a tutor for key bombs and disruption. While there is some anti-synergy with D. Shaman I still think Knight provides solutions to many problems this deck has design-wise. I'd really like to see you are Brian take a Knight version to a tournament to see how you do with it. I know Brian doesn't want to fix what ain't broke, but I just look at his list and am forced to think "this looks kinda sloppy." Like, I know he's winning with it, but I think much of that is opponent's not prepared for the match-up.

Just my 2-cents.

-Storm

P.S - Updated Knight list for your perusal:

"I Absolve You"

Land (24):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mishra’s Factory
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland

1 Strip Mine
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze Of Ith

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Grafdigger’s Cage

Enchantments (3):
3 Stony Silence

Creatures (24):
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mayor Of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary


Sideboard
3 Rest in Peace
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Fiend Hunter
1 Mishra’s Factory
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Sin Collector

[StanleyAugust]

I'm not saying that Notion Thief is a wise alternative, but I do like that Notion Thief is instant speed (though I think that if you pass the turn with 2UB up you are basically telegraphing that you have him and your opponent probably won't Jace for +3 cards).

I don't even think that's a concern. Shutting off Jace's Brainstorm ability preemptively is a good thing. It also means that your opponent won't use Jace's Brainstorm ability when you have 2UB up and don't have Notion Thief in hand.

[Guli]

Karakas and maze of ith withouth knight may seem random but together theyalready are 2 slots. I am also running decays for oath dont miss that. Eventually all these litlle additions or slots add up. Something i learned from Brian is to spread my slots and add a variety of tools. Brian does this a bit overly but at the same time he gives himself options. It doesnt make the piloting easier either. You, storm, tend to design more in a nice circel. You have in theory  well oiled machine. My style is a bit of both.

[serracollector]

@bpk: instead of eva have u considered Kessig Malcontents? Its 1 mana less, still a 3/1 beatstick and on average does 4+ uncounterable damage. Not to mention it can kill a lodestone then be witnessed back into play to seal the deal. 2 Kessigs should be game ending I would imagine. Also why isnt rayne maindeck? Between wastes, bolts, duress, ts, stp, dissmember, etc etc she seems a straight up draw engine in herself. Heck throw in 1 rancor just so u can double the draw

@Guli: if ur upping the sfm, why not try some of the new equips that gains bonuses on humans?

Keep it up guys and gl.

[brianpk80]

I would have you guys know that fiend hunter still won't prevent them from drawing 7-14 cards if they wish. They can respond to the trigger by activating brand's ability.

I would hope that's already self-evident to anyone reading this thread, otherwise we have a serious problem on our hands. What may benefit from elaboration is pointing out that power-drawing "just cause I can" is not necessarily the best play for an Oath player if they can't win that turn on the spot.  I'm sure you realize that if there's an Ethersworn Canonist on board and an opponent casts Show and Tell, they can't follow it up with any non-artifact spells even if they draw their entire deck.  How many cards would you draw at 14 life with a Canonist in play knowing you have to pass the turn to a board of 7 damage with no Griselbrand to block?   

Agreed that I'm sorta just speculating that Notion Thief could work here.

This isn't the right home for Notion Thief.  A minimal degree of testing makes that obvious. 

Ultimately, I think the fundamental issue one runs into with any version of Humans is a single game-ending finisher. Brian seems content running 1x SFM and 1x Batterskull, but I don't particularly think that is reliable enough.

Those aren't the finishers; they're in there to stabilize in Workshop and other aggressive matches and to have a built-in offset to potential suicide by Dark Confidant.  I'm surprised you picked them as examples when it's pretty clear the ordinary "finishers" are 1) Howlpack Alpha, 2) Mayor of Avabruck + army, 3) Army fueled by Bob draws, 4) Exalted Lyev Skyknight, 5) Exava, Rakdos Bloodwitch. 

I know Brian doesn't want to fix what ain't broke, but I just look at his list and am forced to think "this looks kinda sloppy."

You're elevating aesthetics over practical application.  As a work of art, a decklist might look more pleasing to the eye on paper if it had multiple Stoneforge Mystics, but the first time you draw one with no Equipment left to fetch and lose because of it, you'll want to ensure the fiasco is never repeated.  If you play 2 Equipments, there will be times where you draw both of them in your first 10 cards and that's not acceptable.  Guli is playing a Sword of Light & Shadow and while that card is not for me, I can at least respect the decision because he's not playing Stony Silence and he makes stronger arguments than saying something looks "kinda sloppy" or making blind attacks on the NE player base as "unprepared."  I think doing more testing would give you better insight here, especially with regard to Notion Thief and understanding the role of Karakas and Abrupt Decay in Oath match-ups.  Good luck!

[Guli]

I am not really sold on the equip that give humans a bonus. The dagger was used by Brian and it does appear to be the most playable one. It is fine.. not super great. Definitely not near the power of a Batterskull, Jitte or a Sword. Elbrus might be interesting though. A card that is not a joke, offering a quick clock.

@Storm: yea that deck looks consistent.Since you run 3 maindeck Cage AND pridemage, I won't nag about the Oath match, hence I will not say 'were are the decays'. So I understand that Karakas is not there. However, you know very well Oath is not the only threat, Show and Tell circumvents the hate you are running. Also, there are no Fiend Hunters or Swords to Plowshares. Maybe scrape of a land or two and a Knight for 3 stp. You run too many lands. 21-22 (waste package included) is good. I used to run 17-18, I was bashing bax about his high land count. Now I run 21-22, but well the decks I run now are a bit more controlling and mid-range than the old decks which were more beat decks.

[serracollector]

No thoughts on kessig malcontents? Also I was thinking if u can handle 4 cc humans why not test zur, the enchanter?  Some viable options include:

Steely Resolve
Detention Sphere
Alpha Status
Descendants Path
Armadillo Cloak
Snake Umbra
Stony Silence
Rest in Peace

I am currently testing a shell with your base cards, three Zur, three Detention Sphere (over the fiends/stps), and one of each of the other enchantments named above, and im really liking it.

[brianpk80]

Kessig is worth considering, and Zur is pretty good also.  4CC Humans that are viable include Zur, The Enchanter, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Exava, Rakdos Bloodwitch, Ranger of Eos, and there are a trio of riskier red 4CC Transform Humans from Innistrad block that have fringe potential; one of them casts Smash to Smithereens every turn, another one gives +3/+0 to attacking creatures, and the third is a one-sided Pyrostatic Pillar.  The main concern with Zur is when you fill the deck with enchantments, you end up fighting over the stack and not maximizing Cavern of Souls, and also removing Swords to Plowshares hurts a lot in the Workshop match.    

[Guli]

I am slowly moving away from the Sword of Light and Shadow.

I am testing

-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Stoneforge Mystic

+1 Stony Silence
+1 Deathrite Shaman

I also added in SB
+1 Stony Silence (-1 Karakas)
+1 Extirpate (-1 Scavenging Ooze)
+1 Abrupt Decay (-1 War Priest of Thune)

The plan with Abrupt Decay on Oath against Oath decks followed by an extirpate is amazing. Same goes against landstill, on Crucible you decay, you can extirptate key cards like wasteland or crucible itself. Once you can neutralize their mana denial war, it becomes hard for them to fight you, because their gameplan is to destroy your bears, take out your mana, in order to prevent more threats. If you can successfully keep your mana intact, eventually the threats will keep coming. I think this is a better game plan that to try to connect a Sword to get back creatures that got bolted or countered (against UR landstill).

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

2 Mutavault
1 Karakas

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant

2 Fiend Hunter
2 Sin Collector
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stony Silence

2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maze of Ith

SB: 1 War Priest of Thune
SB: 1 True Believer
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Sin Collector
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Scavenger Folk
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter

[Stormanimagus]

I am slowly moving away from the Sword of Light and Shadow.

I am testing

-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Stoneforge Mystic

+1 Stony Silence
+1 Deathrite Shaman

I also added in SB
+1 Stony Silence (-1 Karakas)
+1 Extirpate (-1 Scavenging Ooze)
+1 Abrupt Decay (-1 War Priest of Thune)

The plan with Abrupt Decay on Oath against Oath decks followed by an extirpate is amazing. Same goes against landstill, on Crucible you decay, you can extirptate key cards like wasteland or crucible itself. Once you can neutralize their mana denial war, it becomes hard for them to fight you, because their gameplan is to destroy your bears, take out your mana, in order to prevent more threats. If you can successfully keep your mana intact, eventually the threats will keep coming. I think this is a better game plan that to try to connect a Sword to get back creatures that got bolted or countered (against UR landstill).

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

2 Mutavault
1 Karakas

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant

2 Fiend Hunter
2 Sin Collector
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stony Silence

2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maze of Ith

SB: 1 War Priest of Thune
SB: 1 True Believer
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Sin Collector
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Scavenger Folk
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter

Seems like a real solid list guli. Only thing I might change is adding another md stony in place of the 1-of canonist. Seems like they are both good at hosing the same strategies but stony has other wider/broader applications where canonist does not. Good work though!


-Storm

[xouman]

Yesterday I was thinking about transform creatures as Mayor, and I realized that never have played them or against them. How often do Mayor transform? I know that any archetype would be quite different, but I found difficult in my mind:

-Against dredge it depends on therapies. If dredge player can play therapies, probably mayor won't transform. Otherwise it would, and would remain a WW.

-Against MUD it will flip once MUD hand is depleted. Ok, seems best place.

-Against fish I have little idea. Seems great in the long run, but maybe it would take 2 or 3 turns and mayor could be late...

-Against bomberman, grixis... very difficult to transform.

-Against combo: flip a coin. If combo starts slow mayor transforms and applies pressure. Otherwise it does nothing.


How often does he transform? 30% first turn, 50% second turn, 80% by third turn? Do you have any aprox data?

Thanks!