Vintage Super League

[hashswag]

But ok, apparantly I'm the only one who actually cares.

Clearly. How about instead of being bored, you try and figure out the Doomsday pile for yourself. It's very easy to build a pile in seconds that will win 80% of the time. It's much harder to build a pile that will win 90-100% of the time.

[fsecco]

I actually got really excited every time Smmenen cast Doomsday and kept trying to figure out "how the hell is he getting out of this?". The time it took is not a problem to me.

But I'm on the opinion that MTGO normal match time should go to 30 min... in Vintage, with so many triggers, it's easy to go to time if one of the games gets a little grindier. And the number of people that just won't scoop to Vault/Key or Salvagers/Lotus is absurd. You have to go through all the motions just because they know time will get you... It's a good thing that doesn't happen in VSL.

[Smmenen]

My match tonight is awesome.  Chris and I are the only two undefeated players. 

What are your predictions for the matches this evening?

[MaximumCDawg]

My match tonight is awesome.  Chris and I are the only two undefeated players. 

What are your predictions for the matches this evening?

I predict you stick with Doomsday or switch to a burning tendrils list and take the match.

[tribet]

I reckon Chris will stay on Terra Nova because it is solid.

I think Steve changed accordingly. Maybe favouring URg Gush for that matchup with Predator main, Grudge...

Also maybe edging on more people sleeving up MUD decks for this set of rounds

[Coopes]

My match tonight is awesome.  Chris and I are the only two undefeated players.  

What are your predictions for the matches this evening?

I expect the following:
1st: Menendian
2nd: Atog lord
3rd: Pikula
4th: LSV
5th: Maher
6th: Buehler
7th: Froelich
8th: Williams
9th: Leyton
10th: Tom martell

Predictions for decks:
Menendian: I think a pyromancer gush deck is likely.
Rich shay: control slaver.
Pikula: hmmm, either stick with workshops or shift to an aggro control deck.
Buehler: I would say some combo deck, but i think it would be poorly positioned...so maybe workshop? I can't imagine him staying on aggro-control.
EFRO: Another aggro-control deck i think.
David williams: A combo deck.
LSV: Tezzeret? I could also imagine a TPS style deck.
Martell: Dredge, no seriously. If not, then a shop deck. I think people are going to tone down the anti-dredge packages, since noone likes playing that deck
Leyton: I have no idea. My best guess is a workshop deck or a control deck.
Bob maher: Definitely a control deck, probably featuring Dark Confidant himself.

Now i don't know what they are playing, so i will use my predictions from last week.

LSV vs. David williams
Tez/TPS vs. combo.
LSV has more experience in both general magic and vintage, and this match is usually determined by who plays best. LSV certainly has a lot of experience with this match.
Prediction: LSV

EFRO vs. R. Buehler
Aggro-control vs. either Workshops or combo. Either way, it depends on what kind of aggro control deck we are talking about. As for the players themselves, judging by the last 3 weeks i would say that they are equally likely to win this. I am more of a Buehler fan, so he gets my vote.
Prediction: Buehler

Bob maher vs. Tom martell
Confidant control vs. i dunno, i would think he switched to the dark side and plays shops or dredge.
I think Maher got this, although it really does depend on Martell's deck choice. I don't think either player played particularly bad during the last 3 weeks, they just chose poor decks for this event.
Also: I think both players probably learned a lot from loosing three times in a row.
Prediction: Bob Maher

Josh/Jush vs. Rich shay
I would think a blue combo/control deck? vs. NWCS
Either way, i think Rich has got the experience and skill to handle whatever is thrown his way. Combo would probably be the worst for him.
Prediction: Rich shay

Menendian vs. Pikula
Pyromancer gush vs. Workshops
I would think Menendians experience in vintage gives him an advantage, but i would imagine that Pikula will play some sort of anti-Gush deck (Workshops )
I think it will be close, but ultimately Menendian will have the advantage.
Prediction: Menendian

I'm expecting some of the guys to be on bug fish/aggro control and the others on some sort of pyromancer/combo deck. I would love to see stony silence pop up somewhere as I think it's really good in this player pool.

[fsecco]

It would be nice if someone played Humans. I'd love to see that.

[Smmenen]

Zeus,
If I go undefeated in this tournament I will send you swag for guessing correctly.  It won't have much value, but it'll be something.

[evouga]

Any idea when Week 4 will be up on Youtube?

I can't watch Twitch because it causes my computer to randomly hard reboot (?! I wish I were joking...)

[Smmenen]

It's up already.  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQQ8jPMFzt7ni86Ms4UaMWFfGytcaQowx

[MaximumCDawg]

Well, I was HALF right.  Based on the assumption that he was going up against a Shop deck, Steve's choice was masterly.  It appears, though, that Chris kind of punted the game away by leaving himself open to Lightning Bolt on that last turn, though.  If he had not tapped the last Factory, he's still in a position to win with an attack next turn potentially, but he doesn't just lose to bolt.  That said, it is a credit to Steve and his deck that he got Chris into a position to make that mistake in the first place!

[Purple Hat]

Wouldn't Chris have had to tap tomb o animate his factory in that case and been even more dead to bolt?

[MaximumCDawg]

I can't look now, but didn't he get Steve down to something like 1 or 2 on the attack?  All he had to do was swing with the Collosi first and pass to make sure that his swing was lethal, as I recall.

[Will]

Well, I was HALF right.  Based on the assumption that he was going up against a Shop deck, Steve's choice was masterly.  It appears, though, that Chris kind of punted the game away by leaving himself open to Lightning Bolt on that last turn, though.  If he had not tapped the last Factory, he's still in a position to win with an attack next turn potentially, but he doesn't just lose to bolt.  That said, it is a credit to Steve and his deck that he got Chris into a position to make that mistake in the first place!

I thought that Chris misplayed the first turn that he attacked with DSJ by not attacking with all 3 Factories.

[The Atog Lord]

The keep in game 2 was a misplay. I could make excuses -- it was around 11pm my time after a long day. And I find the hand-camera software very tilting (2-0 without it, 0-2 with it installed). But no, the fact of the matter is that I shouldn't have kept that hand. It was a poor keep, not a mis-click.

[Varal]

Also, surprised how much artifact hate menendian brought in. Is there some secret ability to be able to have a 30 card sideboard or something.

No need for 30 cards when you just remove Dredge sideboard cards. It should't be forgotten that it's a relly inbred metagame with only 3 players. If he assumed he would play against Pikula with Terra Nova, then Rich Shay with Control Slaver, then LSV with Blue Control or Combo, he has no need for Grafdigger's Cage or other hate cards.

[Hrishi]

Also, surprised how much artifact hate menendian brought in. Is there some secret ability to be able to have a 30 card sideboard or something.

No need for 30 cards when you just remove Dredge sideboard cards. It should't be forgotten that it's a relly inbred metagame with only 3 players. If he assumed he would play against Pikula with Terra Nova, then Rich Shay with Control Slaver, then LSV with Blue Control or Combo, he has no need for Grafdigger's Cage or other hate cards.

Are the deck lists out? link?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xn15Z7AQggkk0o3xcyFMMqTiXtugDXfQzHhsO_zCLaI/edit#gid=454897452

[Smmenen]

I'm about to stream my VSL match from last night on my twitch channel, and I'll try to answer any questions folks have: http://www.twitch.tv/smmenen

[thecrav]

My concern is that the time set for a League match does not reflect the actual time restriction.

Randy has explained a couple of times that the reason for the extended clock is to ensure that everything for the stream is setup properly without punishing the players for the time it takes either them or the commentators to be ready for the match to being.

Also, surprised how much artifact hate menendian brought in. Is there some secret ability to be able to have a 30 card sideboard or something.

No need for 30 cards when you just remove Dredge sideboard cards. It should't be forgotten that it's a relly inbred metagame with only 3 players. If he assumed he would play against Pikula with Terra Nova, then Rich Shay with Control Slaver, then LSV with Blue Control or Combo, he has no need for Grafdigger's Cage or other hate cards.

This is exactly what he expressed in his stream today. If you haven't seen it, even just the beginning where he talks about how he's meta gamed this week and the next two was quite interesting.

[tribet]

Smart & logical move in regards to micro-metagaming. No harsh feelings about that.

As much as it is fun to level & next level for the league players, I'm not that interested in following this & knowing the inner battles.

To exagerate: Will people start loosing on purpose to safeguard their mates from finishing last place, etc...? nobody is interested in that (and don't get me wrong, I have no doubt this won't happen either). Same way that I also hope that the loosing players won't start turning up with juncky brews, etc... Have fun of course but remember that you're doing this to promote & grow vintage as well.

Considerations for the future leagues should probably involve revealing pairings only after decklists submission. For the last 3 rounds, people obviously would micro-metagame by deduction. Saying that, I expect more unknown in the last 3 rounds from people who are already safe & from the others who are desperate.

[evouga]

Interesting matches as usual. I particularly liked Tom and Steve's matches.

I'm not sure where the "playing against Dredge is boring" mantra comes from. I'm almost always happy to find out my opponent is playing Dredge.

[nedleeds]

I thought that Chris misplayed the first turn that he attacked with DSJ by not attacking with all 3 Factories.

How about metamorphing the Insect and at least having the option to block on the swing back. It's still an artifact and pumps DSJ.

[Smmenen]

I thought that Chris misplayed the first turn that he attacked with DSJ by not attacking with all 3 Factories.

How about metamorphing the Insect and at least having the option to block on the swing back. It's still an artifact and pumps DSJ.

I misplayed a lot in the match as well.  I discussed my errors in the twitch stream yesterday.

EDIT: I created a highlight: http://www.twitch.tv/smmenen/c/5145476

[Smmenen]

It's got 2 more anti-Shop cards than would normally be the case. 

I really blew game 1 against Chris, punting over and over again.  I made at least 4 salient mistakes, and they compounded.  I'm proud of how I played game 3, but I still probably should have Ancient Grudged a Factory instead of his Pearl.  I just wanted him to tap his Ancient Tomb, but he drew a Wasteland. 

[youhavenogame]

That said, it is a credit to Steve and his deck that he got Chris into a position to make that mistake in the first place!

Lightning Bolt must be pretty uncommon in Vintage, eh? Across all formats the Vintage Delver definitely makes best use of it. Rarely have I seen a deck having as many Bolts, and whenever they are needed, too.

Randy has explained a couple of times that the reason for the extended clock is to ensure that everything for the stream is setup properly without punishing the players for the time it takes either them or the commentators to be ready for the match to being.

I can totally understand that. Still, I'm unpleased that one player always takes more of the clock than any other player. Especially when he switches to what I would essentially call "Burn", is it really necessary to take 47 minutes of his own clock? It's turns like: "untap draw thinking, tap mana, untap mana, attack, thinking again, tap mana cast spell" against an opponent who is out of options and interactions that make me think about intentional slowplay, just to gain more screen time or whatever. As I already said, it makes the player look rude and being a douchebag.

Also, no hand cam. For the second week in a row... I don't know about you guys, but if you seriously think this is a worthy representation of a Vintage regular... eh, it's enough for now I guess. I don't want to hate on a guy but on his manners. I want the league to be as enjoyable to watch as possible and it's only one match every week that bugs me and I'm sure that could be changed very easily.

[nedleeds]

Yes. You could choose not to watch that particular piece of free entertainment. Just don't watch. It's free entertainment, that others are providing for us by way of sacrificing time away from their work, their family and other personal matters. You are truly nuts.

[Samoht]

I didn't see it as ego, just he's trying to give you stream of consciousness while he tries to figure out what Steve is up to.  And, let's be honest here, which one of us would be able to speak remotely intelligently about a Doomsday deck?  It's the Hardest Deck In Magic for a reason.  Does anyone other than Menedian even dare to TRY and play it?

EDIT: Kevin is good at commentary during the Vintage Scenarios stuff that SMIP does.  Anyone tried to get him involved as a commentator?

Just want to point out that Josh Butker has played this deck significantly more than Steve and has placed very well with it. Namely he took down a Bye event at Worlds 2 years ago and has been a steady t8 competitor in the NE when he shows his face. He's probably the most experienced DD player in Vintage at this juncture.

[mr.grim]

Chris Ferry is also a very good d-day pilot.

[youhavenogame]

Yes. You could choose not to watch that particular piece of free entertainment. Just don't watch. It's free entertainment, that others are providing for us by way of sacrificing time away from their work, their family and other personal matters. You are truly nuts.

Oh yeah, it being free justifies it to not being critized. Totally makes me be nuts...  Also, I don't think anyone is sacrificing anything but rather gaining something: attention.

I've had about enough of this. Randy set a generous time limit. Steve used that limit to his advantage to consider the many complex lines of play that his decks have. Any concerns about slow play are between Steve, his opponent and the TO. If it's that painful to watch then don't. The replays are on YouTube the next day and you can skip through the thinking breaks to your heart's content. If you want to convey that criticism, there are certainly better ways to do it than baiting Steve and implying he is a douchebag. I don't want to hear any more about this here.
-MM

[evouga]

He had no mic and no hand cam. What exactly does he earn from "more screen time"?

Timed matches are needed in tournaments to keep the rounds advancing at a reasonable pace, but I have no problem at all with untimed exhibition matches (which is essentially what these are).