Vintage Super League

[JarofFortune]

I'd love to have a discussion on misstep. Pointing out two games that could be argued to be anomalies is not the way to do it. If you want, start a thread sharing your thoughts on the card and I'd be happy to post in it(non-sarcastically this time).

It must follow then a deck with that type of control suite is a tempo based control deck, which can only be Delver, not Gifts.

Are you trying to say that four misstep is only good in delver? Because both steve and Rich were playing Delver and those were the examples you pointed to.



Edit: But you're right, sarcasm is not necessary to get a point across and I'm sorry if I came off as condescending.

[diophan]

It appears Mental Misstep being a worthless card is becoming a common theme.

Steve valued misstep so highly that he didn't misstep when he could have. I wouldn't call that evidence of misstep being a worthless card. In G2 of that match misstep was basically the best card either player could have for large portions of the game.

[desolutionist]

No I don't think its a worthless card. The reporter claimed Rich had a "worthless" hand, specifically 2 Mental Missteps. It was only worthless at the point that Rich needed to counter a Tinker or die.

[jcb193]

I haven't watched any matches yet, but curious if anyone has talked to Kai about what he thinks of the format? 

[xouman]

haven't seen the videos for last week so I cannot judge concrete plays. However I think that there is a valid discussion around misstep.

I don't like to play 4, but because normally I'm not afraid of CC1 spells. But I would probably play the full playset of snares if thet can be played with pyrexian mana. I understand playing 4 when you are playing a tempo deck and you expect a field with lots of CC1 spells, or if you are playing a control deck and you are afraid to things like bolts, preordains, deathrites, delvers... Also if you have to play CC1 spells to develop your game, missteps are great protecting your own game. But when I play bomberman, for example, the only cards I really want to cut are ancestrals (of course) and swords (on my auriok). The rest of the time missteps sit on my hand and pray for preordains, delvers and sol T1/T2 sol rings.

[MaximumCDawg]

Misstep is a weird one.  If you're the only one in the room with no missteps, and everyone else is playing around them, then you probably come out ahead.  It's like playing Dredge after people have not seen it in awhile and lighten up the sideboard.  Once people play around it, it's just less good.

I tend to like 1 or 2 Missteps in my deck, no matter what color I'm playing.  It's the kind of thing where just knowing you have access to it makes players play differently, and that impact can be greater than the actual effect of a card.  I only go up to 4 Missteps in control decks or Delver type lists where it is absolutely imperative that the early game stays under control until other counters come online.

[WhiteLotus]

I personally love having 4 mental missteps, you can never have enough of them imo. The real consideration is worrying about the shop matchup, I try to avoid having more than 5-6 dead main deck cards vs shops. So usually what I'll do is put 3 missteps + 2 fluster maindeck and have one copy of each in the sideboard.

In the VSL seems like it would have been more than reasonable to play 4 maindeck considering the metagame. I was kinda disappointed no one decided to play shops, looks like it would have been extremely well positioned with all those Belchers and Gush decks. Although I guess at the Highest level it makes more sense that a deck dependent on the die roll for the most part is going to see less play vs a deck that let's you leverage insane skill. Also i got the feeling that most of them are playing to have a good time and shops doesn't seem like their cup of tea.

I get the feeling that David Williams is the most likely person to bring shops for future rounds. And despite how "unhealthy" the archetype can be, a metagame without shops is even more unhealthy seeing as they keep decks like Doomsday and belcher fair.

[mmcgeach]

I think its really chalice of the void that's well-positioned in the VSL metagame.  Chalice@1 kills most of the decks; Belcher loses to Chalice@1 and additionally Chalice@0. 

It's kind of a corollary to the "Play 1000 missteps" argument.  When its appropriate to play a deck full of missteps, another option is to next-level the meta and play Chalice@1.

[mueller]

it's hard to take this league too seriously when only 2 of the 34 decks so far have been a Shops variant.

[Chubby Rain]

it's hard to take this league too seriously when only 2 of the 34 decks so far have been a Shops variant.

The level of players is exceptionally high but it is definitely a skewed representation of a typical Vintage metagame. Still, I enjoy watching Rich Shay play and commentate so I'll watch even if it's only for that.

[tribet]

it's hard to take this league too seriously when only 2 of the 34 decks so far have been a Shops variant.

I think it's fair to say that, by now, I know how Delver & the mirror works.

I suppose next round we'll have some "innovations" running Mentors and Gifts but I fear it will involve a lot of mirror type games again.

I'ld love to see Landstill & Bomberman decks in the hands of these quality players. I'ld love to see Dark Times, BUG, Affinity, Elves, Tezzerator or even Infect... having a go.

[KanaKaishou]

I'ld love to see Landstill & Bomberman decks in the hands of these quality players. I'ld love to see Dark Times, BUG, Affinity, Elves, Tezzerator or even Infect... having a go.

Will players concede to Bomberman combo? If so, then bomberman is VSL playable. If not...well, no, it really isn't.

[Hrishi]

Well they did concede to Crucible of Worlds+Zuran Orb, so I'm sure they would. 

[tribet]

The players have been good so far, going through the motions a few times so that the watchers can see & the commentators can explain.

It's like Vault/key, people storming out, people getting swamped by zombies or elementals... sometimes people know when to scoop. In the VSL, they typically don't do it straight away and they generally play it out until that point where it is not entertaining no more (and where it is clear there is no point pretending that they may have an out or some crazy top deck that would save them).

[KanaKaishou]

Well they did concede to Crucible of Worlds+Zuran Orb, so I'm sure they would. 

Crucible+Zuran Orb only needed like 20-30 iterations to actually kill, and maybe 10-15 more iterations to find the Fireball effect.

Bomberman is a lot worse than this. Things like "EE+Top+Bomberman" is a kill isn't intuitive to the viewer (or, for that matter, the players), and virtually impossible to actually execute on MTGO. The Tasigur kill is actually impossible to do on MTGO in any sane amount of time (I tried in solitaire mode. I gave up because you need *hundreds* mana to do execute the combo, and most of it blue.)

[thecrav]

it's hard to take this league too seriously when only 2 of the 34 decks so far have been a Shops variant.

As people have pointed out before, using this league as a representation of the metagame as a whole is flawed. Being that there's 16 players and you know who you're playing with each deck, the deck choices are not just about which deck is best, but also which deck is best against what I think the other 3 people will think is best.

Also, as can be seen from Josh Utter-Layton and Bob Maher's, at least some of the time, the choice is about doing something cool or fun rather than something that wins.

[tribet]

Also, as can be seen from Josh Utter-Layton and Bob Maher's, at least some of the time, the choice is about doing something cool or fun rather than something that wins.

I'm 50/50 on these games, and I think it depends on my mindset when I seat and decide to watch some VSL games.

Sometimes, I just skip these matches as I don't think it's serious enough for my liking. Granted some of these were new brews (which is great), they were not advanced/good enough to make it that interesting.

Other times, I'm after some easy entertainment & fun commentaries and I enjoy watching them. Saying that, after watching one round, discovering which janky tech is involved and hearing some good jokes & anecdotes, I rarely go watch the other 2 weeks with these decks (unless there is an unexpected upset!).

Maybe the wider crowd should vote for a handful of decks they want to see being played. Whenever the VSL players lack time, ideas or preparation for a new round (private life, GP, etc...), they could just pick at random one decklist from the hat.

[VibeBox]

it's hard to take this league too seriously when only 2 of the 34 decks so far have been a Shops variant.

it's like getting a peek into a healthy, more open format and i love it.

[Phele]

The videos are still great to watch, but I don't agree that this would be a more healthy open format. I count 4 Delver, 2 Dredge, 2 Belcher and 2 Gush Combo. Not very open, especially the Delver mirrors remind me a lot of Legacy and I am missing broken Vintage moves in these kind of games a lot. And as much I hate it to play against Shops: At least they keep in check, that people don't play too greedy manabases. Otherwise we will face a world with more and more cantrips.

[tribet]

"More open format"?! Where people will soon sideboard 3 Electrickery, 3 Slice&Dice, 3 Stifle,  3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 REB (because they already maxed out the Pyroblast in the main).
Sounds healthy to me.

[fsecco]

Yeah... all those Delver decks are a real bore... I wish someone would just play Humans for a change. And I bet in a full-blue meta it would be very well positioned. Even against Blue-Belcher, dropping Thalia or CotV turn 1 shots them down a lot. A few Missteps on the SB and you're good to go.

[desolutionist]

I wish the regular joe got a chance to play because then the pros would get beat

[The Atog Lord]

I wish the regular joe got a chance to play because then the pros would get beat

What does that even mean? A general supposition that the pros are worse than the average player at an FNM?

[desolutionist]

That means I still think it's pretty lame to put a few players on a pedastal and give them a chance to play premiere vintage on mtgo. No one else has that opportunity.

Rich, someone is either in the VSL or just a random FNM guy, but in actuality, many of the most dedicated Vintage players don't even go to FNM. You already know this.

I for example wanted to play last season when Randy announced there would be a spot and I along with many other people were ignored. Not even the slightest acknowledgement.

So its a country club. A tournament for celebrities. Its more based on that than any sort of competitiveness

[Twaun007]

So its a country club. A tournament for celebrities. Its more based on that than any sort of competitiveness

Isn't that the entire point of the Vintage Super League?

Take the Justice League for example. You don't have your average Joe fighting crime and in the VSL you don't have your average Joe battling Vintage.


[EDIT] However, Average Joe's was the bomb in Dodge Ball.

[jcb193]

It would be cool to have a big online tournament where a "commoner" or two, could win in and play with the rest.  Obviously they don't have the same draw as the other names, but might be an interesting way to further tie the community in, create some buzz, and maybe even get some rogue decks in there.  If nothing else, could show why the pros are pros.

[diophan]

The point of the VSL is to drum up interest for vintage, especially Magic Online interest; it is not supposed to be a tournament you qualify for. As much as people on TMD might be annoyed that many of the vintage greats are not there, you should pay attention to the twitch stream. 95% of viewers are not vintage fans and primarily know about the "normal" formats. Most don't even know who Rich or Steve are outside of seeing them in the VSL. It's easy to drum up interest if Kai or LSV is playing this format that many people haven't seen outside of VSL.

[Twaun007]

maybe even get some rogue decks in there

Rogue? I'm pretty sure there were more Blue Belcher decks in the VSL than I've ever even seen at a RL Tourney and that pile is pretty rogue.

I'm pretty sure we aren't going to find dude.dec in the VSL. Not because they aren't bad   , but because they don't stand on the peak brokenness other Vintage decks do.  

The point of the VSL is to drum up interest for vintage, especially Magic Online interest; it is not supposed to be a tournament you qualify for. As much as people on TMD might be annoyed that many of the vintage greats are not there, you should pay attention to the twitch stream. 95% of viewers are not vintage fans and primarily know about the "normal" formats. Most don't even know who Rich or Steve are outside of seeing them in the VSL. It's easy to drum up interest if Kai or LSV is playing this format that many people haven't seen outside of VSL.

This.

[saspook]

So its a country club. A tournament for celebrities. Its more based on that than any sort of competitiveness

The winner of the Winter Festival (or whatever the MTGO event was called) was a member of the VSL.  Second place was also.  And third place.

[JACO]

That means I still think it's pretty lame to put a few players on a pedastal and give them a chance to play premiere vintage on mtgo. No one else has that opportunity.

Rich, someone is either in the VSL or just a random FNM guy, but in actuality, many of the most dedicated Vintage players don't even go to FNM. You already know this.

I for example wanted to play last season when Randy announced there would be a spot and I along with many other people were ignored. Not even the slightest acknowledgement.

So its a country club. A tournament for celebrities. Its more based on that than any sort of competitiveness

I think you're welcome to set up your own Vintage league from scratch and stream it on Twitch, and get whatever other average joes and community members you want. That's all Randy did. He also said to Wizards, hey we're going to give you a ton of exposure, would you mind throwing a set of digital P9 our way as a prize (which they did, probably very begrudgingly). It's not that hard, it just requires a lot of man hours, which thus far, nobody else has been willing to do in an organized scenario.