4 Land Tax, 0 Scroll Rack? Tax seems a lot less good without Scroll at a glance.

If you're looking for some general Parfait ideas, Smmenen had an interesting article detailing his vision of Parfait 2008.

Other than that, you could try dropping Enchantress altogether and experimenting w/ Mobilization + Humility instead of Mesa/Ascension. I don't know if this would be better, it's just an idea. If you stay with the current version, Aven Mindcensor is probably superior to Sacred Mesa in that it's disruptive in addition to being a source of damage. I've just never been a huge Mesa fan to begin with, truth be told. I hate anything with an extremely high aggregate cost (obv this includes the aforementioned Mobilization—you're paying  for a 1/1 vigilance token).

If you're making the deck mostly white, Preacher seems like a sideboard option vs. Fish if you decide against the Humility plan.

Interesting discussion so far. Right now we're all over the road with our ideas. Which I kinda like, actually!


I don't even know if it's my place to say so, but after going down that road, I kinda think you start to ask yourself "Wait, now that I'm playing a drain/replenish deck, is my drain deck better than a more conventional drain deck using say, Mystic Remora +Repeal/Sensei Top for an engine w/ Painter/Grindstone for win condition?

And if the answer is no, then you start tweaking it further still and eventually just end up cutting the enchantments entirely at which point you're just playing another drain deck.   Okay, maybe I am just projecting but this happens to me a lot when I am trying to do something creative in a well defined format. It's not easy being a Johnny in a world of Spikes. With that said, I just don't see how it can ever really be a bad thing to open up access to broken goodness in the form of Ancestral and Time Walk, plus Tinker+Robot for shoring up leaks vs. aggro.


My only question is is this actually better so far than the old Stax decks which used Suppression Field alluded to earlier? I guess only testing will tell for sure.

RE: the Rector plan, it doesn't tickle me with a feather but that doesn't mean you shouldn't test it out anyway just for the sake of exhausting every option. Hell, try everything, just to be sure. I've learned to be cynical and I suspect this deck is doomed from the start if you're trying to actually putting something together that can really be competitive, but fuck it. Trying and failing to make a pet deck competitive is usually a learning experience anyway, so it's not like this whole thing is a waste of time.


I guess filter w/ Bazaar/Frantic Search/Thirst for Knowledge/Attunement. At some point PandeBurst decks were using 4 Bazaar/Squee if I'm not mistaken.  (Though no synergy between Suppression Field and Bazaar/Attunement, obv.)

I'm always a fan of anything fun/creative and therefore want to see this deck flourish.  Most of what I wanted to say has already been said by Delha and madmanmike but I still have some general ideas I'd like to throw out there.

-RE: Rancor + Auratog—I'm a fan. I don't think putting opponent on a clock is ever a bad thing, plus Tog is a decent blocker vs. most non-tinker/oath creatures.

-How about splashing black for Bitterblossom + Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize?

-No disrespect intended but your anti-Oath/Tinker-robot creatures are mind-blowingly horrible imho. Splashing black opens up Edict as an answer for Shrouded/protected fatties. But if you're gonna stick with the blocker plan, why 1 of each? I'd rather have 2 Alaborn Zealot, 0 Abu since at least Zealot has 1 power. And I think I'd just maindeck Swords if I wanted something more generally useful against non-Oath threats. Another card to consider might be Tariff. It gets rid of Colossus/Emrakul/Progenitus/Iona-on-green/Terastrodon and possibly Sphinx/Inkwell. It's also the tiniest of speed bumps vs. Double Dragon.

-I'm probably biased since it's such a pet card but I think Aura is worth making the main color White.


Qasali Pridemage and Trygon Predator are two annoying as shit creatures that make Moat/Solitary Confinement/The Abyss/other a lot less good than they once were. And they weren't even that good before the printing of said creatures, imo, despite having a place in my heart as pet cards.


Null Rod is your friend imo. The main problem with your deck is that it doesn't interact enough w/ opponent's deck, ie, disrupt hand/board/other rather than focusing on just developing its own board.



Those are both really slow, imo.


Aggressive/disruptive.


Edit: to answer your question, Sphere effects are Sphere of Resistance/Thorn of Amethyst/Lodestone Golem.

You just can't make this shit up...


OGKUSH :u spEAK ENGLISH?
Mr. Fantastic: sure
OGKUSH :CAN U NOT READ
OGKUSH
OGKUSH :ORIGINAL
OGKUSH :NO NET DECKS
Mr. Fantastic: yeah
OGKUSH :ITS BASIC
Mr. Fantastic: lol
OGKUSH :GET LOST FAGOT
Mr. Fantastic: this is not a net deck

[at this point I actually show my library to my opponent so he can see for himself]

OGKUSH :is looking opponent's Library...
OGKUSH :GET LSOT FAGOT
OGKUSH :ITS SAME SHIT
OGKUSH :AND IS A NET DECK
Mr. Fantastic: what?
Mr. Fantastic: its mono green
OGKUSH :GET LOST
OGKUSH :DUDE
Mr. Fantastic: completely original
Mr. Fantastic: your deck is more net deck than mine
Mr. Fantastic shuffles library
OGKUSH :stops looking opponent's Library...
OGKUSH :NAME ANOTHER CARD IN IT
Mr. Fantastic: show your library
OGKUSH :SEE HO WMANY MORE U CAN COME UP WITH
OGKUSH :FIRST
Mr. Fantastic: wtf?
Mr. Fantastic: Drop of Honey, Realms Uncharted, Cloudthresher
Mr. Fantastic: plays Drop of Honey from Hand
Mr. Fantastic: puts Drop of Honey to Hand from Play
OGKUSH :untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
OGKUSH :draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
OGKUSH :taps Swamp
OGKUSH :taps Swamp
OGKUSH :taps Swamp
Mr. Fantastic: who plays that in net decks?
OGKUSH :plays Phyrexian Arena from Hand
OGKUSH :End.
Mr. Fantastic: tombstalker's dead
OGKUSH :NET DECK IS NOT NECESSARILUY TIER
Mr. Fantastic: Tabernacle
System Player Lost

Not a specific mistake but more a recurring leak I need to be more mindful of—I frequently get so excited I top decked the card I did that I end up playing the wrong land and then can't cast the game winning spell for a critical turn and lose.

Yet another 25 year old player in the house, yo. Holla!

I feel as though this card should have been printed 10 years ago.  Good job.

Yeah, I also dislike that a lot.  It seems to me dropping some Spheres for Lodestone Golem can't be horrible here.

I'm not a Stax player, but there are a few things that just leap out at me from looking over your list.

1. If you're playing 9 artifact mana and 4 Null Rod main deck, you'll probably want a full complement of 4 Bazaar to filter out dead cards.

2. I don't even really know that Mindlock Orb/Ghost Quarter are worth it, to be honest. I think I would rather play a traditional Red stax deck w/ 4 Goblin Welders and just splash green for Crop Rotation into Strip. Green also opens up Fastbond, a no-brainer.

3. If you stick with blue, what about adding Tinker + Robot for additional win condition? Obviously you can filter either if they're not useful w/ Bazaar. (edit: never mind, just realized Orb effects both players; wait, no, re-edit: besides filtering dead cards you can just Tinker-sac the Orb itself. ha)

4. Worth reading if you haven't already: Vroman's Bazaar tutorial.

Thank you.

Just wanted to double check that this combo does indeed work—discarding Emrakul with Tortured Existence or some such, putting Emrakul's Gaea's Blessing trigger on the stack and then responding with a reanimate effect.

Is Flame-Kin Zealot really worth it here? Also, with this general it just seems to me you would want more Goblins and whatnot than Wrath effects and dragons. Siege Gang Commander probably works either way.

1. Am I alone in thinking Thoughtcast isn't that bad here, even without Seat of the Synod (which I also kinda like here)? If fear of Wasteland is an issue, I think I'd rather have the synergy of Seat + Thoughtcast + Drain over Ancient Tomb + Grim Monolith. You're getting mouth raped by Null Rod in any case, so I don't know if ~2 Seat are going to make it that much worse.

2. Is a second copy of Tez all that trashy?

If you're able to resolve Rit, Rit, Yawg Will, Rit, Rit, do you really need a  2/1 to help you win the game? 

I think Phele nailed it.  The one thing I do like about it that hasn't been mentioned hitherto is the fact that it is blue, ie, has synergy w/ Force. But then, so does Selkie; pre-obsolescence redux.

You specified "alongside Thoughtseize as opposed to 'instead of.'"  No way is this better than Cabal Therapy if you are already running 4 Duress + 4 Thoughtseize imho.

My thoughts exactly.  I could maybe see it being played in EDH Kira. Not so much in more competitive formats.


Yes, that is what I do as well. Or in MWS, set counters as you normally would and then set a note for additional counters.

RE: bounce to top-of-library, some cards I've always been partial to include

Æthertow
Repel
Ether Well
Forced Retreat
Hunting Drake (This card evokes fond memories of Invasion Block Limited)

The best card in this vein of bounce that I'm aware of is Temporal Spring.  Of course, that would necessitate a different general...

Also, if you include Spin/Hinder/Vendilion Clique/Jace, the Mind Scultor, you might as well give Tunnel Vision a shot.

RE: flashback, Chainer's Edict seems like a card you just can't go wrong with. Flash of Insight is a pet card from way back when. Think Twice seems okay. I mean, if you draw it it cycles and when you mill it it just gives you a way to sink extraneous mana on your opponents' end steps when not a lot is going on.

Duplicant is another theoretical solution.  Also, if Annihilator works the way I think it does, Maze is not going to slow it down for more than a turn or two.

Edit: woops, this has already been pointed out. Shame on me for not reading ahead.

I like it for its low commitment of resources and acceptable power-and-toughness-to-casting-cost ratio.  My build is strictly a duel deck and more rush based, though in general rush strategies are obviously sub optimal in a format w/ 40 life and I don't take my deck too seriously.


True.  The only equipment I am using is Lightning Greaves for Eladamri himself.


I don't entirely agree.  Sweepers in general obviously give any mono G EDH deck a big old mouthful of AIDS, but two of the best monochromatic generals—Vendilion Clique and Jaya—are highly dependent on spot removal for board control. Against these decks and others in their vein, Eladamri is quite disruptive to their general strategy, especially w/ Lightning Greaves/Dense Foliage.

JMHO.

I've been working on a similar list myself but with Eladamri, Lord of Leaves instead of Kaysa.  Actually, Kaysa isn't in my list at all but perhaps warrants testing.

I don't like her as a general as I feel she is overpriced for what she has to offer. Not initially, perhaps, but the idea of paying 7 and then 9 to replay her from the command zone is very unattractive.  I like Eladamri (who I see you aren't using at all, actually) because he remains reasonably priced at 4cc and while trashy at 6cc, not intolerable. Shroud and Forestwalk for the little green men have both been very, very good thus far in duel games. No thoughts on Multiplayer as it remains a mystery to my humble self.

RE: Bloodline Shaman—I've long been a fan of this frail unassuming gem.  I also like Wolf-Skull Shaman and feel it's under priced at   . I'd probably still play it at   and wouldn't really think it was terrible at   .

Other than that, it all looks pretty good to me. If you feel inclined to periodically update this thread with testing results, I for one would be an interested audience.

Timmy, Power Gamer explained by Maro.

MWS is Magic Workstation, a free application you can use to play MTG online. I like it a lot better than MTGO, personally.

Anyway, yeah, I see now why you wouldn't use coat in your deck.  Is Caller of the Claw not Elf-y enough since it creates bears instead of more elves? That's definitely a card I think your deck could use as a measure against Wrath/Damnation/Disk/Pyroclasm/other.

Regarding Voice of the Woods: I've long been a fan of this card and commend you on your Timmy-ish use of it in this deck.  This list looks really familiar, actually.  Do you play on MWS?

Also, no Overrun? Coat of Arms? I think both of these cards are just so much better than Ambush Commander in basically all situations.

Less creatures (particularly 5 casting costs), slightly more burn, 2 or 3 more lands.  I'd probably drop the Bonesplitters for Cursed Scrolls (which I imagine are priced to own by now) or Skullclamps. Other than that, it looks good.

I have always been partial to Zuran Orb, but I couldn't say it isn't going to be useless a huge percentage of the time.  The ability to cylce Sunbeam Spellbomb early and then later recur it with Academy Ruins could be pretty good.

I believe Matt's comment was directed at Smmenen.

You seem to be missing the point completely.

If you read the discussion that followed the original post, you'd know that the OP already decided an Enchantment would be inferior to an Instant.  Moreover, the card you linked to is—in addition to being completely unplayable at 5cc—blue.  Decks with access to blue mana aren't going to play Uba Mask-lite; they are just going to play their own broken blue draw.  The whole point of this discussion is finding a way to put non-blue decks that don't have access to broken draw on equal footing.

Edit: that came across as a lot harsher sounding then I intended it to.  I'm sorry if I was rude or offensive in some way.

I think that's exactly why Plagiarize costs   in the first place.  

I don't see this being so unfair in Vintage but at , I think it might be insta-banned in Legacy, which in turn is probably an obstacle to it seeing print at all.  And in Vintage, when it comes to leveling the playing field against blue decks, would this card really be better than Uba mask?  That is the standard for comparison, after all.  It seems to me that Uba is a better conceived hoser of Brainstorm/Gush/Ancestral/take-your-pick in that even though it can be abused with Bazaar, it can't be used by blue decks against one another.  In other words, as an Instant, I'd compare Knowledge Reflection to Red Elemental Blast; it was designed to hose blue but actually Blue decks are the most likely archetype to play it, as a sideboard option against one another.

So basically, the fly in the ointment maligning your attempt to level the playing field has been here since Alpha. What is the solution? I really don't know.  I have a few general notions though, based on what has been effective in the past.  First of all, I think in order for anything to level the playing field against Drain based control decks running instant speed draw effects unavailable to other colors, whatever cards are printed to hate against said draw have to be priced such that they cannot be splashed and merely added to the arsenal of the very decks they are trying to hate.  In other words, I think the price of   is the biggest problem with your new card.    is also out of the question, imo, while might not see play at all though I think it probably would still be fairly priced for what it has to offer.

  seems pretty good in that a Drain shell couldn't splash it, but are there enough playable white cards in Vintage for a deck in the vein of Parfait to be viable?  In other words, GW Beats couldn't use a 2cc counter since they aren't going to have the mana open and it would go against their general style of play.  I just think the power level available to UB decks in Vintage is so incredibly high that very few hate cards can really make a dent.  In Legacy however, your card becomes a lot more exciting.

I think that a   version of your card would be ideal as an anti-Brainstorm and co. hate card in Legacy, but in order for it to be truly viable, Land Tax would have to be unbanned first in order to open up the possibility of mono or heavy white control as an archetype.  I don't claim to know what repercussions that unbanning would have.  Maybe Mox Diamond would have to be banned in its place? One wonders.

On a side note, I've been fooling around for a while now with an anti-storm WW hate deck and I like that this could potentially counter Ad Nauseum, though I suspect if the storm player ever got to cast their AN, my deck would have already failed in its general hate strategy.

To the best of my knowledge, this won't actually foil Demonic Tutor due to the active player having priority during his or her main phase; they can play the tutor, pass priority (you can't play your Trap since they haven't searched yet), then tutor resolves and the stack empties.  After the resolution they have priority once more as the active player and can cast the spell they tutored for before you have the chance to respond with your Trap; by the time you can finally cast your Trap, the spell is out of their hand and onto the stack.  (If I'm wrong about how this works, let me apologize in advance; I am not an authority on passing priority).

With that said, this looks like a very good card nonetheless.  In fact, I almost wonder if it might be too good in Legacy as just a hand disruption plus cantrip for , ignoring the cap effect.  You could play it main deck in multiples since almost every non-Dredge deck uses fetches and is going to cast spells every turn for the first the first 5 turns or so.  I think "cast a spell" should read "played an instant or sorcery."

The biggest problem with this card (besides being undercosted at   , imo) is that it doesn't kill the most popular draw engine of UB Tez decks, Dark Confidant.  Bob is good on his own and insane with Sensei, obviously.  So I think it would slow down the VV combo but really wouldn't kill it completely since they'd still have an effective draw step with Vault/Key in play, albeit one with more self destructive variance.

On a side note, it also doesn't affect Ancestral (you can just target your opponent), FoF, Gifts, and the seldom used Jace Beleren.

I don't think it's a bad card, by the way.  I just don't see it being a solution for Time Vault, as you suggested in the other thread.