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1  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Dark Confident on: November 04, 2005, 01:37:09 pm
How does BOB interact with split cards?  Do you chose the (obviously) lower cc?

You don't "choose" anything.  You simply reveal the card, and the effect asks, what is this card's converted mana cost?  In which case, it returns the converted mana cost of each half, which is then added together.  So, if you reveal Fire/Ice with Dark Confidant, then you would lose a total of 4 life (2 and 2 equals 4).  That's because of this rule:

505.5. Effects that ask for a particular characteristic of a split card while it’s in a zone other than the stack get an answer that consists of a combination of the split card’s two halves.

Since the converted mana cost of Fire/Ice is a combination of the converted mana cost of Fire and converted mana cost of Ice, you add them together.
2  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Living Death on: November 02, 2005, 11:09:10 am
oh hehehe.  yeah i grabbed it from official rulings underneath the card pic because this ruling specifically applied to this question.  I shouldnt have used the word oracle as it caused confusion.  What I meant was that I went to the oracle site and grabbed one of the official rulings.

Ahhh, now that begins to make sense.  Yes, that is definitely not the Oracle wording of the card.  Yes, it is a ruling (or, more specifically, a clarification on how the card works) that is for Living Death; but Oracle wording is the actual text on the card (or what should be on the card if it were printed today).  The two are very different.

But yes, that ruling effectively describes the process for how Living Death functions.  Hence why your description and analysis were okay, but calling that "Oracle text" wasn't.  More of a nitpick than anything else (but I did want to make it clear what is, and is not, Oracle text in case there was confusion from anyone else who may have seen that and noticed it being different from what shows in Gatherer).
3  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Living Death on: November 02, 2005, 08:59:33 am
i grabbed it right from wizard's gatherer fro up to date oracle wordings.

With respect, the text that I quoted is from Gatherer.  I also know that WotC has dropped the usage of such things as "at once".  Likewise, I certainly know that there's no need to include text such as "If there are any choices for a given step...", as it is not relevant to the card's ability and effect.  There's no "step" in Living Death.

So, I don't know where that text you quoted came from, but it's not the Oracle text of Living Death.  The text I quoted came directly from the Oracle in Gatherer and was simply cut and paste.
4  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Living Death on: November 01, 2005, 11:12:09 pm
"Both players remove their creature cards at once. Then both players sacrifice all creature they control at once. Then both players put all creatures they removed into play. If there are any choices involved for a given step, the current player makes their choices first, then the other player, and finally you do the action all at once." - from gatherer

Not sure where you got that, but the current Oracle text of Living Death is:

Each player removes all creature cards in his or her graveyard from the game, then sacrifices all creatures he or she controls, then puts into play all cards he or she removed this way.

But your answer is basically correct.  The ability of Vulturous Zombie will only function (and therefore trigger) when it is in play.  Since the creatures are sacrificed before the Vulturous Zombie is in play, then its ability can't trigger (as it wasn't in play when the cards went to the graveyard).
5  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Triskelion after Pyroclams resolves on: October 25, 2005, 10:08:36 am
That's only if my feeble understanding of sbe and priority are correct.

Unfortunately, your understanding is not correct.  Limbo's answer was the correct one.

The reason your understanding is not correct is because a player receives priority after spells and abilities are played and after spells or abilities resolve.  So, each time you play a spell or ability, you regain priority in order to keep playing spells or abilities or you can choose to pass priority to the other player (CR 409.1i).  That means, after you play a spell or ability and would get priority, the game will check for state-based effects.  So, in this situation, you play the ability of the Triskelion once and it becomes a 3/3 with 2 damage on it (SBEs are checked, but do nothing).  Then you play the ability of the Triskelion again and it becomes a 2/2 with 2 damage on it (SBEs are checked, and this time the Triskelion goes to the graveyard).  You never get the opportunity to play the ability a third time.

So you don't simply gain priority and then play as many spells as you want and then pass priority, you actually are regaining priority after each time you play a spell or ability and have the option to either play more spells and abilities or pass priority.  The game checks for SBEs every time you play a spell or ability.
6  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Dragon Shields: Old vs. New? on: October 24, 2005, 08:27:04 pm
I am wondering if anyone has any similar experience with Dragon Shields. I heard that there are "new" ones, but I don't have enough of them to know. Are they any different? Do they split as much as the old ones do? Are they worth using?

I'm a huge fan of the Dragon Shields, though my experience is limited to about the last year and a half.  So, if they are a "new" version, I couldn't tell you.  I will say that they do split from time to time, but it takes a pretty good beating to do it.  Usually, catching the seam directly when shuffling and really crunching it together.  The backs do scuff up and will eventually get marked, but it does take a fair amount of time (I've had some sleeves last for two or three tournaments easily).  My major complaint is that the sleeves are very slick to start with and take some time to "wear" a bit before they are more manageable.  But, the overall quality of the sleeves outweigh these negatives, as well as what you get.

But, in comparison to some of the other sleeves I've used... They are definitely very good.  If your past experience was bad, then I think you will probably find the new ones are much better.
7  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Dredge and Bazaar of Baghdad on: October 21, 2005, 03:37:51 pm
Speaking of replacement effects, Yawgmoth's Will and discarding (or sacrificing) a Darksteel Colossus. Both have replacement effects. Could you will DSC away if you wanted to? (RFG Colossus? )

Provided the Colossus would somehow go to the graveyard, yes you could.  The controller/owner of the Colossus can choose the replacement effect of the Will to remove it from the game, or you can choose the replacement effect of the Colossus to have it shuffled into your library.
8  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Plague Boiler on: October 21, 2005, 01:53:29 pm
No.  In order for the Plague Boiler to destroy all non-land permanents, it must be sacrificed to its own ability.  If you sacrifice it to another ability, it will not be there to be sacrificed to its own ability when the ability resolves and the Boiler won't be able to blow.
9  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Dredge and Bazaar of Baghdad on: October 20, 2005, 09:57:28 am
Let's say we have 2 Darkblasts in our graveyard (or any other Dredge card, really), and activate Bazaar of Baghdad. At this point we choose to replace both of the Bazaar's draws with the Dredge mechanic and return both Darkblasts to our hand. The question is, do we still need to discard 3 cards?

Yes.

Bazaar of Baghdad says "{Tap}: Draw two cards, then discard three cards."  When you would draw a card, Dredge allows you to replace the draw (and only the draw) with the ability to Mill X cards and then return the card with Dredge to your hand.  However, all that does is replace the event of the card draw itself.  It doesn't change anything else about the ability that caused the card to be drawn.

So, with two Darkblasts in your graveyard and choosing to replace both card draws with Dredge, effectively the text of Bazaar might read:

"{Tap}:  Put the top 3 cards from your library into the graveyard and return Darkblast to your hand.  Put the top 3 cards from your library into the graveyard and return Darkblast to your hand.  Discard three cards."

Since the discard is not dependent on having drawn cards (if it were, it would have to say "If you drew cards this way, then discard three cards."), then you still have to discard three cards.
10  Vintage Community Discussion / General Community Discussion / Re: Magic Personality Test: who remembers this? on: October 19, 2005, 03:22:48 pm
I'm a Guerrilla (CDIP).  And the only card I don't own out of that set is the Battle of Wits. Wink
11  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Ill-Gotten Gains: Timing and Card Selection on: October 18, 2005, 10:18:57 am
As the graveyard is viewable to all players, I assume common sense dictates that the chosen cards are shown to all players. I assume a judge will back me up on this one.

Correct.  Even if the instruction was "Return one card from your graveyard to your hand.", all players in the game would still be aware of which card was chosen before it was actually returned to the player's hand.  There does not need to be any wording that the card is "revealed", as it was never hidden in the first place (since the contents of the graveyards of both players are  public information).
12  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Final Fortune & Time Vault on: October 14, 2005, 08:17:46 am
It was this one (though it is not recent):

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8747.html

Quote
Q: I play Final Fortune, then activate the untap ability of Time Vault. Then I tap Time Vault to take an extra turn. Do I lose the game at the end of the extra turn? I think not, because the FF "lose the game" trigger is tied to the turn created by FF, and won't happen if that turn is skipped. This is true regardless of whether I tap the Time Vault.

A: You are correct; you will not lose the game at the end of the turn granted by Time Vault. Final Fortune's delayed triggered ability will only trigger at the end of the turn created by Final Fortune. If you never take that turn, then you won't lose the game due to this effect. It does not matter that you still end up taking an extra turn due to the Time Vault.

Chris (and Godder as well) made one mistake regarding this (read the forums for this), which was that the order the turns are added to the game does matter.  Since they are taken in reverse order (that is, the last one added is the first one taken), you have to ensure that you would take the Final Fortune turn before the Time Vault turn.  That way you can skip that turn with Time Vault and then create extra turns that you do not lose when they end.
13  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Darkblast question? on: October 13, 2005, 07:35:26 am
Note that, in 502.47a which you quoted, Dredge has actually been reworded so that it doesn't even use the 'if you do' and 'otherwise' template anymore. Having the right amount of cards is now a prerequisite to using the ability in the first place, presumably to prevent exactly this kind of confusion.

That text was never the official rules to begin with; it was simply reminder text regarding how the ability worked.  Magic shorthand, as it were.  Close to what the actual rules say, but not actual rules.

But yes, basically if you would draw a card, you can either choose to mill or draw a card.  And you can only choose to mill, if you actually have at least that many cards in your library.  So, you can't choose to Dredge if you have 2 cards left in your library, and you have to mill 3 to Dredge.
14  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Comp. Rules update on: October 09, 2005, 08:02:23 pm
What is the end result of Humility and 2 Opalescences in play?

All three enchantments are 1/1 creatures with no abilities.
15  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Necro's cards on: October 08, 2005, 01:55:25 pm
So if i'm correct, there is no conceivable way to stop those cards from being put into hand @ EOT?

No, as Time Stop in response to the end of turn triggers (since all of them will go on the stack at the same time when the End of Turn Step begins) will prevent the cards from being put into the player's hand.
16  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Comp. Rules update on: October 06, 2005, 09:46:42 am
Wait, so the whole counters thing gets added AFTER the P/T is set to 1/1?

The answer, as of October 1, 2005, is "Yes".  Had you asked the day before, the answer would have been "No".


So someone has Ravager in play, and they sac all of their artifact creatures to it in response to Humility, and it can still be 5/5 or 10/10 or something absurd?

It will start as a 1/1 (as opposed to a 0/0) and then get the bonuses from the counters added to it.


Then if it goes to the graveyard, does modular trigger?  What about when Academy Rector goes to the grave?

No.  Humility makes it so that neither the Ravager or Rector has an ability when it leaves play.  So, neither Modular nor the search would trigger.


And I don't understand how the change affects the age-old "Humilty and Opalescence in play" question.  Is it safe to assume every global enchantment (including humility, not including opalescence) are 1/1s without abilities?

Correct.  The reason is much technically different now, but it still works the same way it used to.
17  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Comp. Rules update on: October 05, 2005, 11:37:11 am
He just randomly logged into gatherer and searched for "substance"??

Well, either that or he saw the comment about the CompRules being updated from the Judge listserv.  Because those are the only two ways I can think of how anyone would even think to look for something like that.
18  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Comp. Rules update on: October 05, 2005, 09:14:47 am
EDIT: Where dit Matt get this info from, BTW??

He got it out of the Gatherer search engine that WotC has set up to link to the Oracle text of all the cards printed for Magic.
19  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Comp. Rules update on: October 05, 2005, 07:55:54 am
Humility = 6a, Giant Growth =6d ==> 4/4

Actually, Humility qualifies as 6b.  Characteristic-setting abilities are limited to abilities that affect the permanent itself and no other.  For example, Nightmare's ability that sets its power and toughness is a characteristic-setting ability (and the Kobolds "~this is red." ability is another such thing).  So, Humility sets power and toughness to a specific value (so it can't be 6d), but isn't a characteristic-setting ability (so it can't be 6a).  Nor is it a counter (so it's not 6c) or switches power and toughness (6e).  So, it must be 6b. 

This is the correct result, just for a different reason.


I find my own answers kinda counterintuitive. If Spike Weaver is in play and someone casts Humility, it actually gets BIGGER.
I must be missing something.

Actually, it used to be that Spike Weaver 1/1 with Humility in play (Humility used to be applied after +1/+1 counters).  However, as a result of the creation of these sublayers within 418.5a, it now becomes a 1/1 in 6b and then the counters are added to it in 6c, making it a 4/4.  Go figure.
20  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Enduring Ideal vs Medling Mage/Circu on: October 04, 2005, 07:54:23 am
Correct, you are not playing the copied Ideals (You can't, remember?) so Meddling Mage or Circu won't stop you.

More importantly, both Meddling Mage and Circu, Dimir Lobotimist only prevent you from playing cards.  Copies of cards are not considered cards by the game, and so would not stop you from playing copies.  This is important to remember for things such as Isochron Scepter (which creates a copy of a card that you do, in fact, play).
21  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Comp. Rules update on: October 03, 2005, 06:46:41 pm
I won't tell you what we've taken to calling "substence".  Suffice it to say, it's not very polite. Wink

On a lighter note, Humility's wording has changed AGAIN, back to the actual cards' wording.

And you don't want to see the change that they made to that section of the CompRules that made this possible. Razz
22  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Necro's cards on: September 30, 2005, 01:21:19 pm
When cards are removed, normally or in response, with a necro, what happens to the cards removed in the event of disenchant or bounce?  Are they gone for good and can only be wished back?

The ability that removes the cards also sets up a delayed triggered ability that will put the card in your hand.  This is independent of Necropotence itself, and is just part of the ability that removes the card (so removing the Necropotence will not affect this triggered ability).  It is much like the ability of Kiki-Jiki or Astral Slide; it does something, then sets up the delayed triggered ability as well.
23  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Cosmic Larva on: September 30, 2005, 07:54:23 am
Suppose that in response to the trigger the Larva is removed from play (bounced, plowed, sacced, whatever).
When its ability resolves can I choose to sac two lands if I want to (e.g. planning on playing Balance)??

Yes.  The ability allows you to choose to either sacrifice two lands or not instead of sacrificing the Cosmic Larva, and it doesn't check to see if the Larva is in play or not.  If you sacrifice two lands (and you can only choose this option if you can sacrifice two lands), then you won't have to sacrifice the Larva (even if it isn't in play).  By the same token, you aren't forced to sacrifice the lands if someone removes the Larva from play; the ability will simply resolve and be unable to do anything.
24  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Mana Drain Mana, A rules nightmare on: September 23, 2005, 12:38:47 pm
Since Mana Drain's trigger has to go onto the stack, whether or not both players have actively acknowledge it, it is assumed that it did and that both players passed priority thus allowing the trigger to resolve.

I'm not certain I would go quite that far, at least not without qualifying it slightly.  Again, as I initially noted, the DCI policy is that untargeted mandatory triggered abilities that do not have a choice on announcement (such as mode) don't have to be announced.  They are simply put on the stack.  The resolution, on the other hand, is going to be based on shortcuts demonstrated during the game and/or how players are playing.  And players do have to ensure their correct resolution.

Generally, yes, it will be assumed that the delayed trigger from Mana Drain is going to resolve automatically, as most people don't respond to it.  But, given that you can respond to it (for example, with Abeyance or Orim's Chant), then there may be times where you have to specifically say you are responding to the triggered ability.  Otherwise, you get into situations where intent has to be determined and the use of the shortcut previously has to be evaluated in light of the current situation.

So, it's not always going to be assumed that it did; just that based on how it has been played during the current game is how it is going to be assessed.  Not to mention what was said when the last spell or ability was played (as that gives a pretty good indication of whether or not the trigger had resolved).
25  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Mana Drain Mana, A rules nightmare on: September 22, 2005, 09:25:47 am
So, in other words, instants can be played without that mana even being in your pool before the trigger resolves, but at the point in time where you can play a permanent and/or a sorcery then the trigger must have already resolved?  So, if I play an Intuition at the beginig of my main phase and my opponent Power Sinks my intuition, I don't have to use up my Mana Drain mana?

(of course, this would be in bizzaro world where you can see Mana Drains and Power Sinks played at the same table...)

You could respond to the Mana Drain trigger with an Instant.  However, I would advise you to definitely be careful about what you say in this situation.  That is, whether or not you are responding to the Mana Drain trigger with the Intuition.  Because if you don't say that you are responding to it, then you could be in a rather grey area with this, especially when your opponent suddenly finds out that you have Mana Drain mana available to you and the Power Sink didn't get that mana.
26  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Mana Drain Mana, A rules nightmare on: September 22, 2005, 08:07:52 am
If i accidentally play a swords on an untargetable creature can i take it back?

If you "accidentally" play a Swords on an untargetable creature, you've committed a Procedural Error.  Your opponent should point it out and call a judge to get it corrected (which means reversing the action, if possible, or recording that you did commit a Procedural Error).  In this respect, both players are indeed responsible for ensuring that the rules are being followed and that the game is being played "correctly".  Not necessarily played "well", simply that the game rules are being followed.


And this concept of hinting to the opponent is even more retarded I shouldn't have to ask what mana is for, if they tap lands, they put mana in their pool.

If you observe an incorrect game state, you are required as a player to correct that game state or call a judge to correct that game state.  As has been explained repeatidly, you have some freedom in how you correct the game state.  If you want to be "nice" and remind your opponent of the Mana Drain mana before they do anything in their Main Phase, you can.  If you want to simply note its presence and ensure that they burn when they don't use it, you can.  The only thing that has been stated is that if the game state has the potential of getting confused, in which case you do have to take steps to ensure that it isn't confused (and has been discussed, there are ways to do it that are perfectly legitimate, but don't "remind" your opponent about the Mana Drain mana).


And if a judge has the nerve to penalize me for not pointing out to my opponent something he is supposed to keep track of i'll repeatedly punch him in the throat till he turns blue.

And I would happily, and with extreme prejudice, DQ you for this action.  After which, I'm sure you could enjoy your "vacation" from playing Magic in sanctioned events.  And yes, I would do this even in an unsanctioned event (so that other TOs who run unsanctioned Vintage events are aware of what you were on "vacation" for).

@Gort32: Mana Drain has a delayed triggered ability that adds the mana to the next Main Phase.  This is done at the beginning of the Main Phase, and is a normal triggered ability that can be responded to (hence my earlier comment about using Abeyance or Orim's Chant in response to force the mana burn when the player can't play spells).
27  Eternal Formats / Miscellaneous / Re: [Deck] Glimpse/Clamp-Kobold on: September 22, 2005, 07:54:42 am
*chuckles*  You beat me to it with that observation.  But yes, I'd noticed that card as well and realized that you could probably more effectively set up a Storm count and card drawing engine between the interaction of Glimpse/Kobolds/Curio then you could with the Skullclamp drawing you cards and just playing the Kobolds you draw.  Of course, the Curio doesn't work very well with Ornithopter (because Ornithopter won't trigger the Curio), so that may be a card to cut if it is being run.  But, yes, the addition of Cloudstone Curio does seem like it might be good for the deck.  If I can get some time (probably not since I have the PR this weekend), I'll see about putting together a list to try and work on this card.
28  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Rain of Filth on: September 20, 2005, 01:45:46 pm
Yep, that deck is officially in the trash now.  I still can't believe that not one judge said anything in the Legacy Champs while half of them were watching Eric go off. 

Eric Becker is a cheater of epic proportions.  Who else can cheat in front of so many judges and not get caught?

To be fair, both the player and the judges could have missed that interaction and not been aware of that particular section of the CompRules.  In and of itself, that's still not very good to have seen (and certainly I'm not happy as a judge that it happened), but it may not have been intentional on anyone's part.  It could be just simple ignorance through which this happened.

That being said, hopefully this will ensure that such an incident doesn't happen again to anyone.  Whether accidentally or purposefully.
29  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Rain of Filth on: September 20, 2005, 12:31:40 pm
Holy crap, that means that trick with Second Sunrise doesn't work, since the lands forget the ability when they leave play.  Well, there's a round I shouldn't have lost.  Oh well.  So much for GWS's SecondSunrise.dec in Legacy...

Correct on that account as well.  If the lands leave and return to play, they are treated as "new" lands and forget anything about their previous existence.
30  Vintage Community Discussion / Rules Q&A / Re: Rain of Filth on: September 20, 2005, 07:57:03 am
Wow, the judges who watched multiple matches of my friend playing it wrong never said anything at GenCon.

I'm sorry to hear that.  But it is covered by the following rule:

418.3b Continuous effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that modify the characteristics or change the controller of one or more objects don’t affect objects that weren’t affected when the continuous effect began. Note that these work differently than continuous effects from static abilities. Continuous effects that don’t modify characteristics or change the controller of objects modify the rules of the game, so they can affect objects that weren’t affected when the continuous effect began.

Which is different from continuous effects like Glorious Anthem or Crusade, which apply as long as they are in play.  Effects generated from a resolving spell or ability don't do that.
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