I don't see what the problem with a 2 for 2 is.  The purpose of duress is to slow your opponet down or remove his own disruption.  Presumably a 2 for 2 would slow your opponent down more than a 1 for 1.

Aether is good when you are not going off, pyrite is only good when you are comboing thats why.  As long as you are playing chains of meph tho pyrite is pretty good as you can't draw your entire deck.(although you could go until you hit the EE/Trinket and blow up your chains then draw the rest I suppose.

Choke is pretty horrible in 4 gush meta unless you get the root maze down.  Maybe if you went 3-4 root maze with a 1 of silverbullet choke it could work.  Clearly it is really hot when you get both down, and rootmaze is really good against fetches so their land takes 3 turns to come online.  Clearly needs to be in a deck that attacks their mana base pretty quickly, either a 2c GW/GB/GR or 5c deck.  Since it really isn't feasible to play rootmaze and your own fetch and 2C is the most you could support without going the city/gemstone route.   Some of those CIPT sorta gemstone lands would work pretty good(with just a couple of them) I think since their negative is negated by rootmaze.

Just making a list quickly 5c hate

4 Gemstone
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
2 Vivid Thicket
1 Vivid Meadow
3 Mishra's Workshop
7 Solo moxen
1 tolarian academy
---
27

4 Rootmaze
1 Choke
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
1 Tinker
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
2 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Crucible of World
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Powder Keg
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
___
33

Well I suppose as long as your hand isn't empty you can just use the aether to looter yourself until you find find the pyrite then you can go infinite.  If you went double aether like bomber normally does you would need to cut chains of meph.  As long as you are playing chains of meph you pretty much need a pyrite or you can't can't win at all.

As to teeg, he stops EE, and chalice (if you play a 1 of chalice and repeal in your normal bomber builds) and it ruins your mana base(one of the strengths of bomberman is that is can normally play 4-7 basic lands)

You can EE 0-3, 5 play meph, duress them a few times, vindicate a few lands, crypt them and have a spell bomb in play.  Not quite as good as playing out all your crits, timewalking and passing the turn with 7 counters in hand.  Probably lose 2% of games you combo off if you cut the pyrite, but I still think it is worth cutting.

Yes chains of meph would ruin the combo unless you had the pyrite already, I don't see why you would play chains of meph in bomberman.

How is this aggro bomberman, it plays essentially the same clock as reg bomber (which is an aggro control deck.. closer to control tbh) but with less counters and more tutors(ie turning it closer to combo)

These are completely useless in vintage now that they are 1 Mana,[T] instead of free[T] like you originally posted.

That is like saying magus of the moon is strictly inferior to blood moon.  It may not find its way to being overall better but I am sure there is lots of circumstances where you would rather be beating for two while their creature is stolen.

Moonglove extract doesn't seem favorable compared to lets say.. Granite Shard.

Seems like this would be really nice in shop aggro.  A deck that should roll any build of fish game 1 with little/no effort,

Opens up a whole new deck space, fish/creature aggro with spheres and significantly helps shop aggro decks disrupt without disrupting themselves as much.  Not sure if regular 5c stax will want to play this as it often only plays 3 spheres etc.

Well what if there is lets say.. a blue hideaway land that you can use any turn that you drew 4 or more cards? (ie brainstorm + drawstep) throwing a colossus, mind's desire or yawg bargain etc into play for free would absurd. 

Both the current lands are,
A. Too hard to activate
B. Don't tap for good colors (ie when is the last time you saw a basic plains(guess just bomberman) or forest(um.... ichorid maybe.. although 10 power is too win more)

I don't suppose it is possible for the moderators to make an official no-power/budget thread and not allow anymore of these posts outside of that thread?

Unlike something like slaver, having 4 gushes in your deck makes it incredibly easy to regain 7 cards in hand, even late game.  Seems like you would only cut it if you were expecting a high combo meta where library is just too slow.

This deck is really only budget for a player who plays type 2, legacy and extended.  A players that plays only vintage would find this deck extremely expensive 10 proxy.  G/R Fetches, Chants, Isamaru, Lions, Tiaga, Plateau, Savannah, etc.  Normally vintage players would have Blue fetches, FoWs, Oaths, Misdirections, Gifts Ungiven, Goblin Welders, Volcs, and Underground Seas in the same relative price range.  Personally I can do every major deck of the last two years 10 proxy, and I would be lucky if I could 25 proxy this.

Aside from that I nitpick I really like the deck, and it would be very good against alot of decks.

Do you really think that 5 color stax with a 5 color mana base and chokes in the board should be called 4 Color Stax because you cut crop rotation?  That seems like the most ridiculous rename since... well.... ever.

Wouldn't it be better to just replace the grim tutors with perplex, diabolic tutor, infernal tutor, demonic consultation etc, and proxy 3 moxes?(not that I have testing results that shows this or anything, but I assume moxes are more important then the grims)  Also the deck isn't exactly budget, with 11 cards over $10 and another 20 or so in the $5 +-$2 range.  Deck would be about $250 compared to a 5 proxy ichorid which would probably only run like $75... Ofcourse these cards are almost all staples and getting them is a wise course of action, however that doesn't exactly make it budget, just powerless.

$240? not really.. lol, they are $250 nm/m on starcity.

But I am certainly willing to buy it at Gunslinga's $175 =P

When I said good looking, I didn't mean "good" condition I ment a card that looks good... for example this is about the worst a card could be while still looking good,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antiquities-Mishras-Workshop-Power-Nine-MtG-004_W0QQitemZ8715898595QQihZ004QQcategoryZ38294QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Anything worse and its basically looks like someone threw up the card.

That shop auction on trademe is up to $200, and the seller has low feedback


Cheapest I see a shop in buyable condition is $240US
Imperial Seals are only ever sold on ebay at buy it now for $180 US or higher and there is never auctions so good luck getting $140
Same as Imperial seal, only ever on ebay for buy it now at $125 or higher, never any auctions.
Cheapest drain I see is $110 from a low feedback and $125 from a good source
I see an italian drain for $75 for low feedback and $100 from high
The lowest bazaar on ebay is $168 and looks like someone put it through the wash, an auction near end is $172
A pretty good library is ending in an hour at $132, but probably will go up more

If you can get me the cards at those prices I would be willing to spend a few thousand dollars right now =P

I don't like a board with 4 chalices in a heavy aggro & aggro/control meta, as they are only good vs control & combo.  Pyroclasm is good, massacre is probably better if your expecting more fish than ss/goblins.  Flametongue Kavu is really good at killing things like salvagers and jotun grunts.  I don't see the point of 3 fire/ice between maindeck and board.  The only reason F&I is ever played maindeck is because it is versatile, in that it pitches to force, kills mages, multiple x/1s, and can timewalk a colossus, I don't think it is a very good sideboard card.  Against x/1s dart/darkblast are both far superiror, and against x/2s pyroclasm, & massacre should be all you need.  While I personally don't like vampiric in CS, if there ever was a meta that was good for maindeck vamp, this would be it(as it is horrible in control metas).  Oath is gonna rip you hard 70% of the time with the way your board is, so I hope thats not part of the aggro/control meta.  I would probably recommend changing the chalices to 3 duress (and an E-bridge) as they as almost as good versus combo, and should atleast give you a chance vs oath.  Finally I don't think you need 3 tormod's crypts 2 should probably be enough.. In your meta(aggro & aggro/control) I would probably go

3 Duress
1 Ensanring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rack & Ruin
2 Pyroclasm or Massacre
1 Lava Dart
2 Tormod's Crpyt
2 Flametongue Kavu

...If you expect alot of the decks to be blue based however I would definetly fine room for a minimum of 2 red elemental blasts (probably at the expense of 1 R&R and 1 duress).



I feel that both gifts and combo are far more graveyard/will reliant than CS.  Tormod's Crypt is just so much better against either of those decks than against CS.  Against CS you fissle a single weld if they only have 1 welder.  Against gifts you basically force them to go the colossus plan, or to build their GY twice(or win off a rebuild).  CS could be fine without yawg, neither long or gifts could survive without it however, in CS it is just a random turn 10 win card.  Planar Void hurts both of those decks more aswell... Even leyline, CS can bounce, tfk & weld, and gifts is unlikely to have the mana to do a setup in a single turn.

Lately these are the prices I have seen roughly for good looking condition cards.

Shop - $250
English Drain - $130
Bazaar - $185
Imperial Seal $180
Library - $155
Grim Tutor - $125

Power varies way way more than the other cards, and especially based on condition.  On ebay you generally get much better deals on power if you go with low reputation sellers, but that is risky.

Cards like FoF, and Gifts are almost always boarded out in CS.  That doesn't mean they aren't good.  In the control matchup for example, something needs to be boarded out for REBs & Crypts.  Does that mean REBs should be maindeck? Probably not, as you won't be happy when you lose to FCG, or random Affinity... Turn 1 FoF is really good against random no FoW deck =P  Generally you use the better overall cards maindeck in an attempt to reduce dead card count, and than remove the least useful cards for the matchup for specific cheaper answers... That doesn't mean FoF/Gifts isn't good.  If CS took away the 3-4 cards that usually get boarded out (mystical, FoF, etc) it would probably have the worst match of any top decks against randomness.

Are there actually metas that contain a large portion of TPS? Is this europe? I have found the percentage of players that play TPS is so low that it isn't worth testing the match, and yes, CS is good versus stax.

I like the deck, but I do think that 1-2 maindeck triskilions would be a huge boon.  With 4 bazaar, 4 mongrel my recommendation would be for the card to come from those slots.  Essentially triskilion is better in most of the matchups you have listed as duplicant being good in.. all matchups if you assume oath boards in their SSSs against you.  Duplicant is superior game 1 vs oath, and basically every other time trisk is better.

Obviously Misdirecting a recall is essentially game over versus fish, but really thats 1 card in 60 for them and 1-2 in 60 for you, seriously rare situation when they have nearly no tutoring.  I can't imagine duress is any good in the matchup, can't hit lands or creatures, and their biggest threats come down turn 1-3 and then your duress went from bad to nearly dead.  I can't see duress maindeck being good in anything but high high control/combo meta, it is just so awful versus stax/fish/ichorid/etc. 

What I mean to say is preboard is from 40-60 to 60-40 versus fish depending on the versions.  The matchup is never is my opinion great, and never really awful.  Postboard I think it is mostly dependant on the CS players sideboard 4-6 slots of pure fish/aggro hate(ftk, razormaze masticore, pyroclasms, massacres) will really swing it CS's way more than anything Fish could bring in I think, worst cast scenario really seems to be crypts and old men with both players bringing in rebs.  Ofcourse if the CS deck has none of that stuff in the board it will most likely become really bad, and committing too much to the fish matchup will ofcourse hurt oher match ups.  Overall I would say most CS decks have a favorable game 2/3 versus most fish decks, and a unfavourable game 1.

I don't really think of CS as a deck that has a great fish match up, ofcourse this is depending on version and sideboard for both decks heavily.  However it is overall much better for CS than it is for long or gifts.  CS's strongest benefits in my opinion is the lack of really bad match ups, the ability to overcome any situation, and it is a rewarding deck for experienced players who know what they are doing.

Clearly you are playing the deck like MDG gifts and not being the control deck, or playing the beat down as they like to say.  Playing the deck Jar/Tendril's style is very diffirent than how the deck plays out for other people.  I tend to just counter stuff/draw cards winning little until I stumble onto the win on turn 5-20 randomly.

As to Jar, the amount of times that you filter through close to 7 dead draws is probably pretty close to the amount of times you filter through 4-5 counterspells and lose them all.

Jar draws lands, moxes, and any other permanants you can play before the end of the turn just because it doesn't draw you force of wills and mana drains for their main phase does not mean its not a draw spell.  Is an ancestral recall that hits mox, mox, lotus not a draw spell?

What do you think CS's combo matchup is? Lets say Rich Shay's winning list from Richmond.  4 Drain, 4 Fow, 1 Scroll, 1 Crypt MD, Chalices/Duresses/REBs/1 crypt in the board.  Seriously there is no way this matchup is worse than 40-60.  40-60 in best of 3 means you win 2 games.  Against gifts I would be suprised if it wasn't a coin flip.  The only real advantage gifts has over cs is that it rolls janky decks instead of sometimes being randomly knocked out by them, and a better combo matchup.  The biggest advantage of CS is imo that it doesn't have horrible matchups like gifts vs fish, stax vs ichorid.  Personally I would rather have a 40-60 versus combo than what gifts has vs fish, and the matchup got worse with timespiral adding wipe away, trickbind and children.

Add to this that most metas I've seen don't have over 10% combo(even the major tournaments), and most that do play combo make too many mistakes to be a real threat, and the fact that trickbind is going to force combo to play duress/xantid again thus greatly increasing difficulty of play and reducing wins off blind draw 7s.


Um, CS has like, the most draw of any deck in the format without night's whisper.  FoF/Jar+4 Thirsts+ maybe library or gifts is about as much as any deck is packing atm.  Gifts has 4xGifts+FoF and that is imo less of a draw engine.  Not saying more draw isn't good, just its not exactly lacking.  In a meta where you can afford to fetch out your sea turn 1 (ie higher combo/control meta) it is probably a superiror choice.  It really worsens your fish/stax/anything with wastelands match ups.  Also it changes how the deck plays quite abit.  Adding so many sorceries really reduces the draw go play style of the deck, depending on your play styles that could be good or bad.

Slaver has not just put up good numbers in new england.  It did amazing in richmond, great at waterbury, great all over the place except at gencon.  Why did slaver do poorly at gencon? because everyone was playing combo because combo wrecks jank decks, and cs loses to jank like sligh and sui black.  Slaver is not the deck of choice if you are going to play against GR beats, increased combo and burn decks.  The best thing slaver has going for it in reality is that none of its matchups against good decks are worse then 40-60.  Oath, and pitchlong are probably its worst match ups and I would be very suprised if they were worse than 40-60 pre-board and combo gets better post-board.  It isn't like 5c stax and its horrible ichorid match or jank vs combo match.

I would be very suprised if there was not more fish+shop than gifts+long decks in an average field.

It is interesting that control slaver is considered by some to be hand dependant the last time I played it in a tournament I went 8 rounds without needing to muligan and lost a total of like 3 games I think.  Compared to the amount of hands in stax or oath you need to throw back it is very generous.  4 TFK + 4 Brainstorm usually smooths over dead draws like slaver/trike/dsc.

Right now I am testing a board with 2 chalice, 2 duress, 2 tormod's crypt, 2 reb, 2 pryoblast as control/combo hate, it is probably overkill tho.


Lastly people again talk about slaver like it is dead.  It put up 2 top 8, 4 top 16 in boston and 4 top 8 and 8! top 16 at waturbury thats 25% of the top 8 and top 16 at waturbury, and 12.5% at boston.

So slaver has 12 top 16 appearances in the last 2 major non-sanctioned events(4 tournaments).
 
Long Variants
Waturbury - 1 top 8 2 top 16
Boston - 1 top 8 2 top 16

So Long has 4 top 16 appearances in the last 2 major non-sanctioned events.

Gifts Variants
Waturbury - 1 top 8 1 top 16
Boston - 5 top 8 8 top 16

So Gifts has 9 top 16 appearances in the last 2 major non-sanctioned events.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm CS sure is dead, and damn thats an impressive showing by Long, Gifts was non-existant in the meta before gencon it would seem, sorta like 5c stax before it last year.  I could do this for the whole year and I have no doubt that in 2006 CS put up the best showing of any deck in major tournaments(although to be fair it has been played in numbers higher than alot of other decks).