just a minor point to make from a personal preference point of view.  I like an even split of fetch lands in case of an extirpate or pithing needle on one fetch or the other.

Haunted.

  Hey everyone.

This deck clearly has roots in U/W/b Fish from Slaver/Gifts mana ichorid era.  At this time Mr. Feinstien and myself did a lot of talking about the need for B in a U/W build.

clearly Bobs are a great engine and giving yourself access to Duress effects are almost a must for the first turn.  One thing that I never forgot Dave telling me is that 15 creatures was the absolute lowest he would go in a Fish deck.  Understanding that some current Fish builds go lower than that, one must ensure that the suit of creatures facilitates that in some way ie: clock or disruption.  As has been stated, you have to pay strict attention to the potential turns your disruption can buy you vs. the reliable clock you can beat face therein.

You have 5 waste effects; 3 waste and strip is fine, keeping in mind you also abuse stifle.  While we are mentioning Stifle, 3 may be too many - lets try 2 and clean up some room for more creatures.  Try converting that additional Wasteland into a plains.
Convert a moxen into a lotus petal:  it may sound silly, but the time when you need a moxen is turn 1 and that moxen usualy only gets used once or twice, in that case, it should be rainbow in nature before null rod shuts it off.
Demonic and vampiric:  Vamp needs to be Mystical.  Keep the U count up and keep an eye on your life total.
Yawgmoths needs to be Ponder.
Get the 4th canonist in.  Since you lack the brute force of a Grunt, Canonist and mage are going to be the back bone of the disruption for you.  Aven is big too, but works with Stifle and the mana denial plan.  Mage and Canonist are soft lock components.

All in all, this list seems best suited for Tezz and Storm.  Oath and ichorid are going to beat your face in...make sure your SB addresses this fact.  This list turns off artifacts and punishes light and stretched mana bases (though TPS might be able to race you game one because of it's mana base.  When facing TPS game one...shut off the Tinker into  big dude route).  You are going to have to learn how to manage your resources VERY well if you are going to get anywhere with this list.  G offers bigger beat sticks and you are going to have to pack SB cards that deal with that fact as well.  B offers some great potential to that end; as the same cards that you would use against leviathan/dsc et al are the same ones that you might wanna try and use against Goyfs.  Perhalps instead of edicts, you might want to entertain Smother as a direct selector of spot removal.  The life loss hurts, but it does allow you to select the creature instead of your opponent.

good luck with everything.

Haunted.

@ Gunslinga:  Yeah, could you imagen if he asked him to smoke an illegal joint, if they were going to draw...you better call a judge on that one too.

@ Homercat:  Clearly I have a LONG way to go with mastering TPS (honestly I haven't been playing it that long).  I've become enlightened as to the absolute necessity of Desire in TPS when considering Drain decks (which of course are quite popular right now)  In my area, there are not a lot of Drain players, so I'm sure that is a contributing factor to my lack of understanding here.

I'm also understanding that what I am trying to do with Dday is not in line with how TPS rolls.  It's risky and can potentially open you up to situations that you cannot get out of.  TpS seems to like having flexibility with what the next course of action will be, especially when an attempt to seal the deal or fire off a major engine has failed.  Doomsday, if answered, leaves you dead with no more outs (as Eric had stated some time ago).

Thanks guys for the input and potentially saving me from a horrid tourny exp.

Haunted.

@ David: point taken.  Understanding that it can be pitched and has built in counter protection (also it was not a cost consideration really), the idea that I was trying to suggest was a package deal.  By that I mean, with Doomsday, you look at setting the card up differently than Desire.  Desire wants multiple cards fired off before it, and thusly draw into more cards that will hopefully get you there.  It also begs Tolarians to ease the UU burden (which as I've read sometimes, is a point made by players with Desire), which opens you up to mana denial plans that I won't bother with here.  Doomsday wants a critical mass of mana to fire it off and the card that draws you into the chain to win.  Beyond that, it fits with the ritualcentric theme of TPS, as does Night's blackness.

On the other hand, there is the life points issue.  Understanding that if you fire off Necro or Bargain, Doomsday is NOT going to be an option when using Night's as the link into the pile.  In that situation, you are going Willcentric anyways so both cards are more than likely undesirable.

I'm unsure of exactly what decks you are talking about (not disputing, just looking for names here), but I'll assume they are decks that counter spells.  In that event (where desires storm effect works around that), I would assume one would set up Doomsday with a duress effect or have a Force in hand to protect DDay.  If I've missed your point or specific deck(s), please let me know because I really should know these things (serious, not being an ass here)

Michael

I'm not trying to reanimate a dead thread here...I just didn't know wether to start a new thread or use this as a forum for my thought.


Ok, since we are talking budget here, we are looking at the cost of running Grim tutors as well yes?  I myself cannot afford them, so I've been testing Night's Whispers and also looking at Doomsday as well.  My list is almost card for card of what Mr. Menendian has offered in his articles on TPS, save for I don't splash the , or run desire as I don't own one as of this moment.

Current list is as follows:

Kill: 2

Tendrils
DsC

mana sources: 28

2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted delta
2 Flooded strand
2 U. Sea
5 Moxen
Black lotus
lotus petal
manacrypt
mana vault
Sol Ring
4 Dark rituals
2 Cabal rituals

Lesser engines: 6

Ancestral Recall
Brain Storm
Ponder
2 Night's Whisper

Tutors: 5

Demonic
Vampiric
Imperial
Mystical
Merchant Scroll

Major engines/bombs: 9

Tinker
Time twister
Necro
Gifts
Fact
Jar
Bargain
Yawg's Win
Time Walk

Protection: 11

4 Force
4 Duress
Rebuild
Chain of vapour
Mis D (would replacing this card with another Duress effect/bounce effect be a mistake..I've never used it as much as pitched it)

I live in a proxy friendly environment, so the power is proxied of course.  I don't proxy the Grim's because I have cards available that allow me to work with the deck (night's Wispers).  There is no academy, becuase I am not running Desire (this will change when I own the card of course) and in reality the deck runs a black count that cannot really capitolize on the U mana.

Being that there is already a high reliance on black (with my list), I was thinking that I could/should run Doomsday.  I've always been a huge fan of this card since I was pushing for it in TTS (with other advocates this lead to NLD).  To fully abuse this card, we need to up the number of lesser engine cards to raise the chance of holding one and thusly fire off a tutored Doomsday.  Eric Becker has once stated that he was not a fan of the Doomsday Deck due to the narrow lines of play the card pushes the pilot into.  I totally agree with this sentiment, however -as with TTS- I think the budget player could really use this card as it allows you to assemble the needed line of cards to win.  In addition, you then do not have to fire off expensive Major engines and hope that it all strings along (there isn't much hope involved, the deck does what it is supposed to do most of the time..but still).  Clearly Doomsday is not as resilient as Desire, due to the lack of built in counter protection and it cannot be pitched, yet I think the lower and more accessable casting cost and the fact that you can end the game on the spot attempts to balance thoes facts out.

From a budget players perspective, could Night's Whispers and a singleton Doomsday be a good alternative to Desire and Grim's?  Further more, could this configuration allow a budget player to ease up on the moxen requirements and place that unto the Ritual camp?  I know that Ad Nause may be better suited for these thoughts, but to be honest I just don't like the feel of Ad Naus.dec

Cheers
Michael

Greetings Vintage community,

When we were in the Gush/Flash era (not too long ago) NLD and TTS were at the fore front of Storm decks (thank-you Mr. Becker).  At that point I was a huge advocate of Doomsday as a singleton.  Dooms Day is - as someone put it- an elagant win condition, that although tricky, seals the deal.  Although I am still learning the ins and outs of TPS, one thing that I have come to realize is:  TPS waits for the clear win, then crushes dreams.  To me, this would equal Dooms Day.

To quickly get it out there, I would be inclined to replace Mind's Desire with Doomsday.  As a budget player, I do not own Grim Tutors, nor Mind's Desireand thusly the lines of play that I have in my list are vastly different (I would assume) than the current "optimal" lists of TPS.  My draw package includes x3 Night's Whisper over sheer tutor power that current lists run.  With the increase of draw, I think that Dday becomes more of an option to the budget player.  Not only that, but replacing Grim costs with Whisper costs, and replacing Minds's casting cost to Dday, could also reduce the on board mana requirements.  There is a very real shift in the lines of play regarding which lands are fetched for; for instance, with Minds Desire you need to have   up, in a deck that is more   based.   As Mr. Menendian lamented in a TPS related article, he wished he had Desire in the main Day one, yet I query if this would have been the case had he been running Dday.  It's a much more involved question to ask as our lists would be vastly different, but a question to ponder none the less.

Part of what made Dday so successfull in NLD and TTS, was that there was an ability to run a light mana base and Brainstorm, Ponder and Gush - while all 4 ofs - were extreamly cheap and enabled turn 1-2 kills reliably.  In the current meta, with the loss of brainstorm, Ponder and Gush; one still has the time to employ Dday as a very real and solid bomb to end the game now.  In the current meta, it is still a card that one would tutor for when the requirements are met (brainstorm, Ponder or x3 Nights Whisper in hand).  However, unlike Mind's Desire, the cards sculpts the win on the spot, vs. flipping a stormed amount of cards into a hopefull situation.  Do not misunderstand me, I am not diminishing Mind's Desirer's capabilities or  benifits.  I am simply puting the question out there.

The disadvantages to running Dday are that it requires an increase in stand alone draw cards and that it reduces the number of   cards in the TPS list.  The benifits that i can see, are that it is easily casted off a Dark Ritual and, with a shift of Grims to raw draw, fits neatly into a more   based package and is a win now bomb.

A sample Night's Whisper Dooms Day win may play out like:

4 mana sources in play and available to you
ritual, dday (nights in hand)
l
Top
lotus
ancestral
ritual
yawgs
Tendrils
Bottom

play nights (draw lotus acestral)
lotus (cracked for BBB)
tap for U - Ancestral - draw rest of deck
ritual (BBBBB)
yawgs
lotus (don't even have to crack)
Ritual (BBBBBBB)
Tendrils - 20 damage (BBB floating)

Of course this is achived on turn 3, w/ 3 lands and an accelerant.  However can happen sooner depending on the cards drawn in the opening hand (like any other route to victory).  My point is, that with a reliance on   accelerants in the deck, there is an increaced chance of things falling inline (mana wise) with D.Day than with Desire  in the early game.  That is a lamens theoretical point of view.  In the end, this is a thread for discussion on the matter.

Other possible lines of discussion are:  
Does this inclusion speed the deck up to any significant level?
Are there structural benifits to this idea vs. the current builds?
Is this a very plausible build for the budget player?
Does the inclusion of D.Day - as a singleton in TPS- create narrow lines of play?
Beyond pitching to Force of Will what Does Minds Desire bring to the table that D.day cannot match?

The point of all this is that I have had good initial - although not concrete and out of tournaments- results with D.day; and I would like to see what the community thinks of this matter.  also if TPS could benifit, or at least create two strands of build, to give variety and unpredictability to the archtype.

Please discuss

Haunted.

I am very glad to see this thread taking place.  Congratulations Ben for striking a chord across the field.

I do not own power.  When I started to attend Toronto (401 Convienence), Vintage tournaments, they were non-proxy events.  This forced me into a narrow selection of cards that I could afford to build something viable.  I have 2 children and very real responsibilities to take care of and this, of course leads to a very restrictive ability to construct decks to play with.  So I played Fish and became quite the advocate for it.

When the store owner decided that he was "catering" to the locals who owned power, he elected to allow 5 free proxies $1 per proxy after that.  I was now able to compete with decks that I actually WANTED to play and the attendance increased in terms of new players. Had he not done this, I was on the verge of letting Vintage (and Magic in general as I have no interest in other formats) go!  The trade off was that the locals started selling thier power and quitting Vintage, so there is a trade off to whom you are catering too as the proxy rules stand...in short you're going to offend someone as it stands.

In reference to Menendian's point about attatchment through investment, I think there is something to be said about that and would be inclinced to agree to it..to an extent.  His offering of 5 proxies is falling just shy of the mark IMO.  I would think that offering proxy of cards $100-$200 and out of print, up might be a better target.  My reasoning for this is that, we are looking at making all decks available to players, yet forcing them to still make some financial commitment and thusly creating the attachment through investment.

Personaly I proxy 5 moxen, black lotus, walk and Ancestral... I play TPS.  My friend selected Ichorid so he only needed to proxy 4 Bazarrs and invest $200 into the rest of the deck, Shop players would have a tough time with needing 4 shops, 5 moxen, lotus under a 5 proxy restriction...god help the Staxx players with the additional 4 Bazarrs!  I've forced myself to hunt down any card that wasn't $100-$200 and up, if I was serious to play with it.  The result is an investment that I am very well aware of, yet I am able to compete comfortably in tournaments and have not hurt my financial obligations in life.

There is a need for a possible new thread here, that deals with "how do we structure prize support, to give players the cards that they need and cash to others"?  TO's have a tonne of responsibilities as it is, and Vintage on TMD should put focused effort into giving them possibilities, or a solution outright.

Are proxies hurting Vintage?  in some ways it seems like they are, yes and in others they continue to make Vintage accessable to people like me.  w/o them I would just stop playing, because as the format speeds up and slows down, some decks become impossible to compete with.  An example of this is the resurgence of Gush vs Flash wars..Fish was NOT an option.  Christ even Drain lovers had to take a seat.  There is an acceptance in Europe with concerns to no proxies and how to get to the power.  In U.S. I suspect that players would not be as accepting to this mindset, if they were, then the proxy thing would not have been tried in the first place yeah?

Here in Canada, (at least in GTA) Vintage seems like a dying dog, even with proxies.  I will echo what another poster said (from the UK asking for a green card in exchange for marriage), U.S. and Europe should NEVER take it's Vintage health for granted, because many of us from other countries would love to attend tournaments on a weekly or monthly level for ANY friggin' prize being doled out.

To finish, and reiterate:  we need to focus on serious efforts to solve the prize support issue, both to increase the collectors card pool and reduce the dependancy on proxies; and to offer prizes to the player who does not want power (for whatever reason), thusly staving off e-bay auctioning.  Social comparisons, with regards to motivations to win tournaments may yield some starting point.  Ponder this:  why would someone who does not own power, sell power he/she wins? then solve the prize structure that would keep this player from doing that.  Further:  A player does not own 4 duals that he/she needs and the 4 Goyfs that he/she needs.  Do you give them the Sapphire that they don't have, or do you offer a package deal; that includes all the other cards they DO need, plus the balance of worth (if any) against the worth of the sapphire?

Just my thoughts.

Haunted.

Though I think this post could be elsewhere on the boards:  I would have to go with blasts.  If you look at the recent win with Steve Menendian's christmas beats list at the hands of Troy, you will see that the ability for a deck not running force/drains/duress effects really needs blasts to counter and protect.

I'm not a Belcher player and I've never even tried to build it, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt I suppose.

Haunted.

DA

Though I don't play Bomberman, would it be best to seperate the thread from after the recent B/R?  I do read this thread as I do like the concept behind Bomberman.

Haunted.

Well, your thoughts are well presented and I can see what you are trying to do.  At this point I would love to see what your testing results will/have been and what decks you were testing against.  My exp.  with Moon effects hasn't been as promising, but then again I wasn't using Stifle.

I was wondering what your exp. with the following situation has been.

you: island/fetch - go
Op: Fetch /crack for -response, Stifle - go
You: fetch, moxen, crack for Volc, play BM - response, Force (let's just say that you didn't have a Force to back up) - go
Op: dual/island w/e - Brainstorm or, Ponder or, Ancestral .....(depending on the deck who knows what else gets played)

How has the rest of the game played out after that fact.  I know that it has happened to me and it didn't go very well barring that i too drew a decent draw/hand sculpting card post b/r.  Against Storm, It was like we reset to turn 1 and they blew me out of the water.

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to argue or troll here, I think it's great that there are people out there to keep CS alive.  I'm just interested in the conversation and exp. of going so heavy on mana denial through unconventional routes.

Haunted.

@ Itto:  Do you think that both Ponder and Brainstorm should be included?

At anyrate, I like the fact that you are trying to beef up the early game here.  I wonder about the effectiveness of Moon effects and if Stifle is not effective enough as is.  Stifle is cheap and seems to have effects all through the game states.  Moon effects, while cripling to decks not running enough basics, can become dead cards in the times that a fetch slips past you for some reason.  To magnify this query, my mono  Shop deck has been eyeballing Magus of the Moon to be cut, as it's been played around as many times as it's been a lock piece.

With Null Rod being a solid choice for players right now, do you think that the Top slot should be better used as the Ponder slot?

I understand how your build wants to shy away from cards that require you to fetch out Dual lands, but honestly, Night's Whisper really seemed like the best additional engine that I could come up with for CS.  I also understand that the use of Moon effects pushes the need to shy away from Duals.  It's another reason that I question the use of BM or MoTM.

Anywyas, it's just my 2 cents here.

Haunted.

Hey Kris

Not to be a kill joy or anything, but Bargain and Yawgs Will are both restricted (you can only have one of each in your deck).  Since you last played/built this deck, Tendrils of Agony has been printed.  Given the amount of spells you are casting to Drain Life for 20, you could just cast 9 spells, then tendrils for 20 points of damage.

On the other hand, you seem to like combo, I'd suggest looking at the various combo decks that are out there in the Vintage scene right now, I'm sure that you'd like the latest Ad Nauseam based Tendrils deck.  Please look around the site man, I'm hoping that you are going to find something that you like and keep playing M:TG on the Vintage tip!

Haunted.

I am in no way familiar with the original deck, so take waht I say with a grain of salt.

In the first place, the lack of counters worries me greatly to the point that I don't think I would try the deck out.  I find myself wondering why you don't have Tinker or Mystical Tutor in the deck (unless I've somehow missed them) and they would seem like auto includes based on your statements that there are 2 specific artifacts that you need.

I can see that there are multiples of the said cards in the deck.  However I think that they may be better off as one ofs so that you can include defensive cards in the deck.  Reducing the number of Strokes could be a good thing as well so for the same reason as above.  Null Rod seems like it would blow this deck apart, as well as Chalice at 0 - 1

I think that it is really cool that you are trying to work something different into the mix and I highly encourage you to continue to do so.  However, x4 Force of Will, Tinker, Echoing Truth, Hurkyls/Rebuild and a Mystical Tutor will all greatly help you out.  I would go and say Mana Drains, but as I know they are both hard to come by and very expensive, lean on other defences.  I don't know if trying to fit all these cards in the deck is going to water it down to the point that the deck becomes sketchy, but it really seems like you need to try.

I know that this next suggestion takes the deck out of the realm that you are trying to go; but why not include some Tezz?  At this point I know the thought would be, why not play Tezzvaultkey.dec; but seriously the man can get you the key artifacts that you need.

Anyways, just my 2 cents.

Haunted.

Hey Matt,

Great Topic to start a thread on.  I think that we can all go back to the days and remember the good times - which is NOT to say that tourny and current high level Vintage isn't good times.

I started playing when The Dark came out, and quit around Mirage or just as it had been released, having not bought any packs from the set.  I picked it back up at Mirrodon.  Before that happened, I had found my old cards one day and wanted to get back into it.  Having no knowledge of card shops in Toronto at the time I re-made a Goblin deck for a friends birthday.  I went through  the basics of turns and used a classic elf deck to battle it out with him.  As he learned, I gave him all the Goblins that I had and silly things like Goblin caves etc.  He quickly started to learn where the Gobbos were falling apart and what they needed to do to win a game of Magic.

It was at this point that I heard of 401 Convenience ( a store that sold smokes and gum, but really it was a front for a HUGE collection of Magic and other games/collectables(sp)) and we started blowing a silly amount of money on singles and started to build our casual decks from what we thought would be tight ways to abuse an area of play (for me it was a deck based on MyR Retriver and Diciple/Brain Freeze, with Tinker DSC as the secondary win condition).

Since then we've went on to play in tournys and found the decks that suit or personalities and play styles (Oath and Gobbos for him and Storm based and Drain based for me) - which still seem to fall in line with what we both started learning from.  I never mentioned it, but I actually started off as a mono U player, using clones and Dopplegangers w/ Icy's to beat my opponents w/ thier own decks.

We decided to make some casual decks as well and I of course went back into the hay days with my Mono U control, updated with Ley Line of Singularities and modern bounce/counters to fill it out.

4 Leyline of Singularity
4 Echoing Truth
4 Counterspell
4 Cancel
4 Control Magic
2 Icy Manipulator
4 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fabricate

4 Juggernaught
4 clone
4 vesuvan Doppleganger

19 Islands
1 Ice Flow

No side boards as I recall.

Well, thank-You Matt for creating this thread, it's been amazing to recapture the good ol' days and attempts to get em back.  I hope that your friends like my list and maybe even want to give straight control a shot, I know that it was a deck that served me well when I started (when creatures were king in high school games) and was a blast when updated for casual play.

Haunted.

I'm not sure if I am off point here or not, but it seems to me, that with Tezz being faster, that CS needs to pack maindeck REB.  Not only that, but perhalps another maindeck artifact hate card to combat faster, combo orientated Vault/Key lists, I was thinking Ingot Chewer for that purpose.  Welders are horridly slow in this meta as well, yet w/o them I just don't see CS holding onto the full "control" aspect of the deck.  I'm not sure about others reading this, but the meta that I am in (albeit scrubby and budget) doesn't see many playing Shop based decks, so cutting down to two Welders seems good to me.

In regards to the above post w/ Sharuum.  I encourage all forms of development in Vintage of course, however, I belive that it would be better off as Tezz himself.  Surely Tezz won't bring back Mindslaver, however it will bring 1/2 of the vault key combo and win on the next turn.  Beyond that, I always thought that it was the Welders job to recur the Mind Slaver.

In the end I think that CS is in the same position that it was in just before Shards was printed:  Needs more early/mid game and more than likely just plain old draw.  I was abusing Night's Whisper before I switched off to other decks and it worked great.  Mebbe I will sleeve it up again and see what I can come up with after a break from it.

The current state of Slaver?  Hangin in there and looking to have more impact in the early - Mid Game.

Haunted

Neat concept going on here guys.

My question here is, with the colour requirements, how are you going to reliably get the colours needed to go off?
seems like you need 2 lands that produce B (one for the B requirement and the other to fire off dark ritual for the 3) and 4 other lands.

With all the null rods and waste effects in the current meta, how do you all think that this can be accomplished with reliability?
I'm not trolling here, just wondering.

Also, what is the control package going to look like?  Seems like the deck is going to be terribly packed and will still need to have a very solid package to fight through everything.

As I said, it's a neat looking concept none the less.

Haunted.

I agree that there will always be a well defined list of auto includes in Vintage and Brainstorm was one of them, when playing Islands.  It's the adjustment that I was talking about, not choosing to use another sub engine altogether because Brainstorm is restricted.  The restriction of Brainstorm has, as you've pointed out, forced us to make adjustments; such as 1Brainstorm 1 Ponder 1X and 1X. A three card adjustment.  Now I don't know how silly I was in saying that the authorities that be, really wanted to see us select another sub engine.  As a last thought I should have pin pointed that I was really talking about Brainstorm and Ponder, rather than a blanket statement about "auto includes".

Haunted.

I read somewhere that Lou was considered a douche himself, that might explain being fine with him LOL!

On the other hand I am a fan of good hate and mind tricks.

just a random thought from an unknown.

Haunted.

Congrats on the Mise Ocho.

I'm enjoying reading your posts on the tournys.  I find that it's helping me in learning how to play TPS.  Even though I am forced to sub in suboptimal cards, I am still able to pull off some similar plays.

Keep up the god work.

Haunted.

greetings vintage community.


I insist on building subpar because I am only allowed so many proxies.  I own no power and therefore proxy acceleration and then sub in suboptimal choices to make the deck work.

An example of this would be my current TPS list.  I have no Grims, so instead of going the tutor route, I sub in Night's Whispers to give me raw draw power.  The result is that I am able to dig into quantity instead of the quality cards.  The deck goes off turn 3 w/o fail and still wields the same number of control pieces to protect.  I've adapted my list and playstyle to that very fact and do quite well with the list.  Would I suggest TPS pro's with power to take my list to a tournament?  no.  If you have the means to build optimally, then by all means do so, if you don't then run what you can.

There are times that using "suboptimal" selections are later looked at as "on par" with current "optimal builds" from a different angle.  Can my TPS list execute Grim based lines of play? No.  However it can execute other lines of play which TPS cannot because it lacks Night's Whispers.  They are suboptimal and they are more Will based to be sure, however I don't know when I've ever had a Nights Whisper countered.  This falls inline with the idea that when a player brings a "known deck" to the table you can play against it from a known angle.  When that same deck starts doing things differently from "suboptimal" card choices, do you know how they are going to reach the finish line?  probly not. ie " I should counter that Grim" vs.  "what is he doing when he strings along a few Whispers" or "what the hell is DD doing in TPS"? etc.

As a last thought, sometimes building suboptimal can throw your opponent off enough to gain a slight advantage.  Its a benifit, however I doubt that it is the reason why someone builds suboptimal.  The concept of rogue is based on suboptimal selections in general.  However rogue has a purpose in that the deck is being built to beat a meta in specific.

Sorry that this post seems to just wander about, I guess I don't have a linear train of thought on this one.

Haunted.

I was not really expecting any changes either, given the restoration of vault et al.  I was hoping to get my brainstorms back, however i guess that was a little too much to hope for given the settling that we are in right now with Vintage.  i also think that they would like us to adapt to other means of play and card choices instead of the defacto selections that we consider to be "auto includes", such as brainstorm.

So we build, play and wait to see what happens next time around.  Who knows, next time they make changes, we may get to play with Shah.  Not that I would be looking forward to that, beyond having another card brought of the shelves.

thanks for the post on the update.

Haunted.

again,  if there is a deck that is going to causeproblems (ie a bad match up) then pack side board considerations.  Like you bring leylines, extirpates et al for ichorid, you bring artifact hate for Staxx, so pack you tech for Shah.dec.  Just because YOU don't like playing against a deck because it strikes you the wrong way, doesn't mean that the card should be banned.

I have to consider the above post.  You played a game 2 that went to time plus 5 turns, thusly it didnt hurt the tournament any more than another match going to time plus 5.  I myself played U/W/b Fish against R staxx.  the same thing there...time plus 5.  So where is the basis on the argument?  I really hope that no one says "well what if there is a huge number of Shah.decs at a tournament", because every one of thoes matches are going to go the alloted time and who cares if everyone has to watch.  Is a tournament a drag race to just quickly get through your matches and snag your power and leave?  God help you if you attend a tournament with a huge number of control on control mirrors (ie landstill and tezz mirrors) because time will be called there a tonne of times and you might find yourself a little upset.

Just unban the card already and bring on the Shah decks.  Like I said, we've adopted to ichorid, I'm sure we can deal with a Shah based annoyance.  At least that deck would have to cast spells that we can counter.

Haunted.

take into consideration that I have never played against the Shaz effects. and that perhalps that is a good thing when considering my feelings on this topic.

I've also not read the article that Steve has composed (noting that I assume that it is of the usual quality that Steve puts forth...high).  My opinion on the matter is that one camp says "unban" from the stance that Vintage should have full access to all cards printed. 

That said, there is a fault line when considering Ante cards.  Ante cards do not give a player/builder an angle to manipulate the game beyond "fork over card x and play to win it back and my card y"  Does this change the game being played?  yes, but not in the aspect that we build decks for.  Further, it is not a strategy, it is merely playing a card to win it as a prize.

In the case of Shahrazad, this is a card that manipulates a game state (if resolved) to an extreme degree.  It takes the game and turns it right on it's head and then some ON ITS OWN.  Once we add in other build possibilities (such as outlined by the DD example), we can do anything from piss our opponents off, to legal negotiations, to confusing the opponent to the point of submission etc etc.  In this camp we have the players that simply do not want to have to face these situations and they say "leave the bastard banned"

The way I see it, simply not wanting to face a given situation is not grounds for letting a banned card stay on the rack.　Ｔｈｅｒｅ　ｗａｓ　ａ　ｔｉｍｅ　ｔｈａｔ　Ｉｃｈｏｒｉｄ　ｗａｓ　ｔｈｅ　ｂａｓｔａｒｄ　ｃｈｉｌｄ　ｏｆ　Ｖｉｎｔａｇｅ　ｕｎｔｉｌｌ　ｗｅ　ａｄｊｕｓｔｅｄ．　　Ｉｎ　ｆａｃｔ　ｉｔ　ｉｓ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｆａｃｔ　ｔｈａｔ　ｉｓ　ｄｉｓｈｅａｒｔｅｎｉｎｇ　ｔｏ　ｂｅ　ｒｅａｄｉｎｇ　ａｌｌ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｓｉｌｌｙｎｅｓｓ　ｉｎ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｔｈｒｅａｄ．　　ｒｅａｌｌｙ　ｐｅｏｐｌｅ，　ｊｕｓｔ　ｇｉｖｅ　ｏｖｅｒ．　　Ｕｎｂａｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｄａｍｎ　ｃａｒｄ　（ｒｅｓｔｒｉｃｔ　ｉｔ　ｉｆ　ｙｏｕ　ｍｕｓｔ）ａｎｄ　ｌｅｔ’ｓ　ｍｏｖｅ　ｏｎ．　　Ｐｅｒｓｏｎａｌｌｙ　Ｉ　ｄｏｎ’ｔ　ｋｎｏｗ　ｗｈｙ　ｔｈｅｒｅ　ｉｓ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｍｕｃｈ　ｄｉｓｃｕｓｓｉｏｎ　ｏｎ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｃａｒｄ．　　Ｉｔ’ｓ　ｈａｒｄｌｙ　ｔｈｅ　ｍｏｎｓｔｅｒ　ｔｈａｔ　Ｆｌａｓｈ　ｗａｓ　ａｎｄ　ｂｅｆｏｒｅ　Ｆｌａｓｈ　ｗａｓ　ｂｅａｔｅｎ　ｄｏｗｎ，　ｗｅ　ｗｅｒｅ　ｓｔａｒｔｉｎｇ　ｔｏ　ｇｅｔ　ｔｏ　ｔｈｅ　ｐｏｉｎｔ　ｏｆ　ｄｅａｌｉｎｇ　ｗｉｔｈ　ｔｈａｔ　ｐｒｉｃｋ　ｏｆ　ａ　ｄｅｃｋ．

Ｉｎ　ｓｕｍｍａｒｙ：　　Ａｖｏｉｄａｎｃｅ　ｉｓ　ｎｏｔ　ｇｒｏｕｎｄｓ　ｆｏｒ　ｌｅａｖｉｎｇ　　ｃａｒｄ　ｂａｎｎｅｄ．　　Ｓｈａ　ｉｓ　ｎｏｔ　ｇｏｉｎｇ　ｔｏ　ｒｕｉｎ　ａｎｙｔｈｉｎｇ．　ｂｅｃａｕｓｅ　ｉｔ’ｓ　ｎｏｔ　ａｓ　ｂａｄ　ａｓ　Ｆｌａｓｈ．Ｄｅｃ　ａｎｄ　ｓｏｍｅｔｈｉｎｇ　ｔｈａｔ　Ｉ　ｄｉｄｎｔｍｅｎｔｉｏｎ　ａｂｏｖｅ．　Ｉ　ｂｅｌｉｖｅ　ｔｈａｔ　Ｓｔｅｖｅ　ｉｓ　ｒｉｇｈｔ　ｗｈｅｎ　ｈｅ　ｓａｙｓ　ｔｈａｔ　ｗｅ　ｓｈｏｕｌｄ　ａｌｌ　ｈａｖｅ　ａｃｃｅｓｓ　ｔｏ　ａｌｌ　ｃａｒｄｓ　ｐｒｉｎｔｅｄ　（ｓａｖｅ　Ａｎｔｅ　ｃａｒｄｓ）

Ｈａｕｎｔｅｄ．
ＰＳ　Ｉ　ｄｏｎｔ　ｗａｎｔ　ｔｏ　ｈｅａｒ　ａｂｏｕｔ　ｉｔ．

I hope that I am not speaking out of turn here.

On Nights Whispers:  I've found them to be my replacement for Grim tutors, where I do not own any and don't know when I ever will.  They provide cheap draw and they help things along for me.  That said, I've found them to strangely make a TPS list more dependant on Yawg's Will.  Has anyone else got an opinion on this matter.

Haunted.

I will have to concurr here.  I am a player who has never known how to play TPS and the article being geared towards the lay was very very benificial and practicle.  I certainly see the case that Webster makes and it is valid, however I am certainly gratefull that the articles have been digestable for myself and others.  I can already atest that my ability to make things happen more consistently has increased.  That is to say a greatly reduced percentage of fizzles.

Webster, I have PM'd you about other matters considering TPS, I would greatly enjoy the time to talk to you about things that matter to the more adept TPS player.

thanks again Steve.

Mike
AKA
Haunted.

Mr. Menendian,

Always an appreciator of your efforts and work in Vintage.  Thank you for your never tireing efforts.


I've been looking into playing Storm in the current meta and I have been asking members of Vintage on thier opinions.  This is with regards to what form of Storm to be playing.  I see that you still advocate for TPS and that is reassuring.  However there are thoes that say the presence of Sundering Titan would position TPS poorly in the current meta, what are your feelings on this?  To further that question, what main deck considerations do you make, if you are expecting to see a lot of Sundering Titans?  I belive that many Tezz lists do pack ST as a secondary win (myself included), just as TPS packs DSC; so for me this is a heavy consideraton.

Not to derail the thread, but is TPS really the best storm deck of choice for players right now?  I am not trolling, but it has been suggested to me, that a form of Ad Naus Storm would possibly fair better with a field of Sundering Titans (which is really the crux of the agruments against TPSso far as I have heard).  What are the strengths for TPS, that AD Naus lists lack?  Of course this is your opinion and not the gosphel and I am merely looking to educate myself on such considerations.

Lastly, I see that the SB has considerations for game 2-3 against shop decks and others that pack a number of chalices etc.  Is this to inferr that we as TPS players, must be prepared to lose a large number of game ones against Chalice decks (shop, staxx, ICBM Oath)?  If that be the case, could the single Volcanic and a number of Ingot Chewers be considered in the sted of the G splash?


thank you for your time.

Mike
aka
Haunted.

  I would suggest reading articles that are based on established theories of magic.  Then apply them to test them out.

For an example, I once read an article on what rogue decks are.  This gave me clarification on a few levels and the result was that I put my U/W/b Fish deck down and started to try and solve the current meta with a rogue idea.  While I don't feel that I ever arrived to that solution, I do know that the ability to build and tweak given archtypes became much more focused.  The over all effect of the time spent was that I improved my understanding of Magic and thusly improved my game.

Haunted.

Certainly Ponder is not Brainstorm;  however the card digs as deep and depending on what you draw into, you still have a "brainstormy" feel, in terms of placing, or hiding what you would like to come next.  Ponder to me is still a very strong card and with the absence of x4 Brainstorm is an auto include to me.  At  , it's hard for me to come up with a debate that would see me not including it in any  deck I build.

On other matters, I have been looking at a  , , , build that houses a Volcanic in the Sb, with  options.  The Sb then contains the obvious  solutions.  This approach is inspired by Becker and something that he had said to me once, about liking an additional land and the options that the colour brings for given match ups.  Clearly this list was build on meta considerations and worked out great.  None the less, it has also been worked out that all meta's are not the same and thusly I feel that 4th colour options can be housed in the SB. I would like to hear what the great minds feel about this approach.

Haunted.

@ Hitman:  You may be right in terms of playing a Tezz build.  However, dropping welders and that stuff, means that you are not playing Slaver anymore.  The point of the experimentation with Tezz and the Vault Key combo, was to see how well it can function in Slaver.  To that end I have found that the deck has almost no flexability as the deck is stuffed with auto includes.  On the other hand, the U count is still good and at the end of the day you have a selection of win conditions to choose from.  Further to the last point, I can see how having that amount of win conditions can lead to the situations where you only have a piece of each condition.  So to that end, streamlining is a decent idea.  So to finish off the thought, Tezz and the combo was just something that I was testing before a "Tezz control/combo" deck is defined, or the home for him is found.

Haunted.