I have been sitting on this decklist for some time, but u...

[Blommando]

Quote Why PsiBlast over a 3rd Fire/Ice? That's strange for a deck running red, anyway I recognize it can be a "surprise" tech, expecially if red mana sources are somewhat stripped away.

Well I allready ran 2 Fire/Ice's maindecked due aggro field.

Playing bouncer over voidmage is kinda same as Jacob stated, if you want to use it, you cant attack with it.  Voidmage is just solid beater for 2 which can save your ass from time to time.(atleast its the way I see it)

[Nastaboi]

I also played in Helsinki and I ran two Stifles main in place of power. Afterwards I have to concur with Blommando that F/I's were the right call. Will be in next time. My side was a bit random, but next time I'll be running something like this:

4 Maze of Ith
2 Energy Flux
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Stifle
1 Fire/Ice
1 Null Rod
1 Boomerang (gotta try this)
1 REB
1 BEB

I think that PTW's MD list is the most optional against anything, it really works and I got screwed very very seldom. Just SB what you think that helps in your meta.

[PucktheCat]

Quote You are completly right: No Wizards will be included, just for being a wizard, but the seer ist just a typicall gay man. Grim Lavamancer by the way is the better option instead of Fireslinger. I just wrote about an 1.5-Gay-Wizard-Version here. In Type 1, I gues, its too blue-mana-hungry, but we can try to build an classic-version.

Of course Grim Lavamancer is better than Fireslinger, but if you are looking at wizards for the deck he is a consideration.  At least he provides additional insurance against Welders.

Here is why none of the three options mentioned (Fireslinger, Seer and Escape Artist) here are better than the Hatchling  -- they all assume your opponent wants to play the creature part of the game with you.  If they don't play creatures Fireslinger is just a 1/1.  If they don't play creatures or try to remove creatures the other two are just 1/1s as well.  In addition their interaction with Kai is just really slow for this format.

If you want to make Kai more useful you might consider splashing white for Meddling Mage.  I have been running the Pikula over Kai, becasue I think Spiketail is better than Kai (especially considering the casting cost - I don't want to run 8 spells that require double colored) but you might try an 8 Mage build.  Splashing white increases your exposure to NBLH but it doesn't hurt the overall consistency of the deck if you do it carefully.

Leo

[Hi-Val]

Two considerations, bad ones at that, but considerations-

Razorfin Hunter- I have seen this run before in gay/r, and it has some nice perks: 2 casting cost, gets welders, and with Curiosity it is nasty. However, it is gold, and doesn't so a whole bunch.

Flametongue Kavu- I play one of this in my landstill SB to deal with scrub aggro that sometimes pulls out nasties. It costs 1 more than Psionic Blast, but on the other hand, it does attack for 4 every turn after that. Mean mana drain target, but you don't side them in for Keeper anyway.

[Misemaster]

if you want to run a 4 casting cost answer for crap aggro i would run control magic. it takes the creature and allows you to beat and can get things that have more than 4 power. Its way better than ftk against madness and madness is not crap aggro. Taking a roar token is sick.

[Chaos Blade]

I have tried Razorfin Hunters but there ONLY good in a Lord build which is to slow it seems nowdays. Also on Mox Monkey, its way to mana intensive on the deck it seems. It will really make your mana to clogged.

[Hi-Val]

In a workshop heavy environment, what do you guys like better, Rack and Ruin or Energy Flux? Right now I run 2&2 and I want to free up a bit of space in the sideboard. Also, there's the secret tech of Overload, which scraps Spheres and artifact mana efficiently, but may not do enough for the sideboard.

How does this deck beat Long? I really like the Arcane Labs, and I am using Thieves instead of Voidmages to stop combo. Aside from stopping the Draw7s and Wishes, any other real strategy? Is this the deck to play in a combo/control heavy environment?

[panne]

Null Rod shuts down combo. BEB/Daze/FoW takes care of Burning Wish and Stifle should be pretty good too.

Flux > Rack (more blue mana in deck, stays in play)
Overload is good, but I think Shaman is better. Sure, that sphere dies, but what about 7 SoLoMoxen, Chalice, Crypt, Vault..? Don't we wanna kill them too?

[Hunted Wumpus]

I like the deck alot. However im suprised that it won. The voidmage must give it that little extra edge. However i dont see how u stand a change to keeper, TNT, Madness, even grow! No offense intended, is this deck really good, or did u just get lucky?

[TylerS]

I think it must be PTW's gigantic testicles that win the first couple rounds with this deck--I started off with a build taken right from him, and I couldn't buy a win against suicide until I started tuning more to beat fast_fat_creatures.dec, which lead me into the white splash, which beats crap.dec without TOTALLY giving up PTW's Tier-One Eating Prowess. (I like comprimise.)

Lavamancer beats suicide by himself (kills Shades and Spectres on his own, and romances Negators into harikari), but how do you beat Madness or Stompy? Just balls?

[wuaffiliate]

Quote (panne @ Nov. 23 2003,09:37)Null Rod shuts down combo. BEB/Daze/FoW takes care of Burning Wish and Stifle should be pretty good too.

Flux > Rack (more blue mana in deck, stays in play)
Overload is good, but I think Shaman is better. Sure, that sphere dies, but what about 7 SoLoMoxen, Chalice, Crypt, Vault..? Don't we wanna kill them too?

@Hunted Wumpus, thats the outlook all people who have not played or played vs Gayr have. i suggest you play or play vs it because it will changed how you look at it in a second.

now for something a little contreversial  im running 3 fanatic over kai now. he is so very good, deals with hated creature such as welder/plaguebearer/lackey to name a few. hes less mana intensive and more of an aggresive card. but so far in testing hes been working well. i dont need kai to beat combo, i have plenty to do that.

rod slows combo. it doesnt shut it down.

and RnR > Flux, RnR works in many more situations where flux would be useless. sure a mask player will let his mask die and pay for his dread for a few turns to stomp you. or the scepter player can just support his scepter. or any number of situations. RnR can come in and be more effective in more matches.

the deck doesnt really need shamen, rods do a good enough job as it is.

[Chaos Blade]

Well how do you guys play the Dragon matchup? That and the Keeper matchup Im trying to find feedback on since my brothers dont play Keeper so I cant test it

[wuaffiliate]

lets see:

stifle
tormods crypt
blue elemental blast
boomerang/seal of removal
force of will

this deck and its mono-u brother are meant to take our control, you should be able to take the majority away from keeper if you play the match well.

[Chaos Blade]

I just saw Seal Of Removal in PTW's last sideboard. What are its advantages over boomerang and Maze??

[panne]

Mox Monkeys are good and goes very well with the manadenial-theme(5 Waste, Rods). It also makes Daze alot more effective.

The only bad thing I can see about Gorillas is that they cant be pitched to FoW/Mis-D.

[Phele]

And they don't counter spells...

[panne]

No they dont, but voidmage doesnt either, and it costs UU.

[Dante]

Quote (Chaos Blade @ Nov. 24 2003,20:16)I just saw Seal Of Removal in PTW's last sideboard. What are its advantages over boomerang and Maze??

It's a U answer to Dragon (either Dragon or Verdant Force).  Boomerang is UU and with the 5 strips, 4 Factories, LoA, and 2-4 Faerie Conclaves coming into play tapped, you might not have UU in time if they have a fast start and Maze doesn't do much against Dragon.

@Panne - Voidmage Prodigy DOES counter spells.  

voidmage prodigy - UU
Creature - Wizard 2/1
UU, Sacrifice a Wizard: Counter target spell. Morph U (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)

You can sack it to itself OR a grim lavamancer (note the creature type is a wizard on the lavamancer)

Bill

[PucktheCat]

Quote (Dante @ Nov. 25 2003,11:41)

Quote (Chaos Blade @ Nov. 24 2003,20:16)I just saw Seal Of Removal in PTW's last sideboard. What are its advantages over boomerang and Maze??

It's a U answer to Dragon (either Dragon or Verdant Force).  Boomerang is UU and with the 5 strips, 4 Factories, LoA, and 2-4 Faerie Conclaves coming into play tapped, you might not have UU in time if they have a fast start and Maze doesn't do much against Dragon.

And here is what I think is particularly techy about it - you get to chose when the counterspell war over it happens!!!!!!!.

Read that again, because it is super-duper cool.  Dragon.dec is fairly unlikely to be able to Force first turn because they run fairly few blue cards.  Usually they pick their time to go off and Bazzar/Compulsion have set up their hand for them before they need to worry about needing a Force.

Of course Stifle can counter the Seal and Deed can kill it, but you can't have everything.

Leo

Edit:  @Panne:  What does Gorilla Shaman offer that Null Rod does not?  That is the question you need to answer to start any discussion of the Monkey's role in Gay decks.\n\n

[Phantom Tape Worm]

Quote (Chaos Blade @ Nov. 24 2003,18:16)I just saw Seal Of Removal in PTW's last sideboard. What are its advantages over boomerang and Maze??

Just to add to what Puck and Dante have already said, seal also circumvents xanthid swarm.  Which they may bring in against you.

[Chaos Blade]

Do you guys still think Maze of Ith is valid in a powered meta with Mask in it? Or would you drop it altoghether?

[BreathWeapon]

Gorilla Shaman is only a valid inclusion if you drop Null Rod for CotV, which should only be necessary in a Long style environment. The Rod isn't fast enough for these games.

I am REALLY liking Waterfront Bouncer a whole lot. Combined with Grim Lavamancer, you PWN Aggro. The Bouncer has perfect synergy with the deck. He handles Madness, ROTW gets PWNED by Bouncer. He feeds Grim Lavamancer. He gives you total board control under a Standstill, and he is mad tech vs Dragon  Mad props for this suggestion. The Bouncer is exactly what this deck needed.

My current U/R Gay build is looking like,

Creatures

4xCloud of Faeries
4xFlying Men
4xWaterfront Bouncer
4xGrim Lavamancer

Denial

4xForce of Will
2xMisdirection
4xStifle
3xNull Rod

Draw

4xStandstill
4xCuriosity

Lands

1xStrip Mine
4xWasteland
4xMishra's Factory
4xFaerie Conclave
4xFetch Lands
4xVolcanic Island
2xIsland

I think the original Fish players will understand this deck's extreme Tempo values. While Spiketail Hatchling and Voidmage Apprentice are cute, they don't improve Fish's Aggro match ups. The Double Blue for Kai is an annoyance for this deck, and sacrificing a Spiketail is double edged if your looking at a Curiousity.

Flying Men are a total house in terms of Tempo with Curiousity, and Waterfront Bouncer is absolutely amazing. With the inclusion of the Bouncer, you can immediately free up those SB Maze's of Ith slots for more Artifact Hate ... a big plus. Bouncer improves two of your most important match ups, Madness.Dec and Dragon.Dec.

Also of worthy note, Stifle > Daze. Stifle OWNZ Madness and is an Instant Sinkhole for U. It is useful for countering a Scepter activation, and is a Silver Bullet vs Decree of Justice and Dragon. It even Time Walks vs Mask. Stifle is doing a lot more than Daze ever could in the Early/Mid/Late games  ... and you don't return an Island to your hand.

Although I miss the Gayness that the Fish brought to the deck, Flying Men and and Big Burly Bouncers are pretty damn Gay.

Gay4Life

[Chaos Blade]

Aint Gorilla Shaman just as slow? It takes him 1 mana to take out 1 mox while Null Rod takes 2 and takes them all out. Gorilla Shaman cloggs the decks mana up really bad. Like how many times will you have 3-5 mana to kill a Sphere, even have a red source. While with Null you can play it for 2 and forget about this annyoing artifacts and go on a beat down or get absolute control over the game.


EDIT: Sorry about that I misread the last post thought it said Gorilla Shaman betta my bad. But anyways thats some stuff why not to play it.

[BreathWeapon]

Well, first off it isn't better to include him ... its just meeting a different need.

In a Long environment, otherwise known as that suitcase carrying bastard who wont play nice, Its more important to pre-emptively shut down Moxen than to nullify them after they hit the board. However, if you go second .... your in a poor position vs other Moxen based decks like Keeper in Hulk. So, you want to have a card that can pick up the initial burst of Moxen AKA Mox Monkey.

I definately agree that Null Rod is better all around for this deck, but some people have to deal with Long.dec a lot ... so there is justification for the Monkey.

Play to taste.

[Jacob Orlove]

Null Rod always shuts down all moxen in play. And any other artifacts with activated abilities. Shaman does hit Chalice, though, which Null Rod will not stop.

[Chaos Blade]

Well its best to say both have their pros and cons. On the issue with creature base, I see PTW's base optimal but then I could see yours in a more aggroish enviroment. Bouncers have good synergy with Grim Lavamancers to.

Daze is to good in this deck to drop. I run 2 Stifle and 3 Daze. I might try to find room for the 3rd Stifle, possibly dropping a Spiketail hatchling

[BreathWeapon]

The more you see Stifle in deck lists, the more you can assume that those players see Madness or Dragon in their play environments. I think we have reached a firm division between Fish players, the ones who like Daze ... and the ones that swear by Stifle. Go with what works for you.

A note on Bouncer, he PWNZ DRAGON. Never forget this.

As far as "optimal" creature bases, its all metagame dependant. I for one, only worry about Aggro running unchecked. If you can completely fortify this deck vs Aggro, which a combination of Lavamancer/Bouncer does ... you can walk into any metagame with it. The fact that Bouncer significantly improves your game vs Dragon is no laughing matter either.

[Chaos Blade]

yea bouncer is razzzy tech in the Dragon matchup but I just think Spiketail is more verstitale or however you spell the damn word,since I can stop their threats then rather put them back in their hand but both ways are correct needless to say.

[Sytupal]

has anyone else made note that this thread has more views than any other thread in the newbie forum... including mod based ones?  haha. i found that amusing...

[Chaos Blade]

its Gay Red what do yea expect  . So do you guys think this deck is Tier 1? Im starting to believe so...