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Author Topic: [Discussion] Tangle Wire in Ubastax!  (Read 34171 times)
yespuhyren
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« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2006, 06:46:51 pm »

I think the SB I'm going to use is

2x Duplicant
4x REB
3x Viashino Heretic
4x Fiery Tempter
2x Pyrostatic Pillar
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« Reply #91 on: March 01, 2006, 06:48:56 pm »

My SB, actually, now that I think about it, is very similiar:

4 Fiery Temper
3 Viashino Heretic
3 Pyroblast
2 Duplicant
2 Null Rod
1 Pyrostatic Pillar (I can't fit in anymore, and I need those two null rods).
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 06:51:40 pm by Evenpence » Logged

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yespuhyren
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« Reply #92 on: March 01, 2006, 06:51:20 pm »

My list stands as the following

30 Manazaars
17 Locks
2 Duplicant
2 Shaman
3 Wire
3 Uba
3 Rod
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« Reply #93 on: March 01, 2006, 06:57:00 pm »

I totally sported that list at Blue Bell and went undefeated in the Swiss, and lost to not having REBs.

By the way:  I think your exact list might be the future of Ubastax.

Pyrostatic Pillar is 10x better against Combo than Sphere of Resistance, and it kicks Gifts ass too!  I might switch to your exact list soon.

Here's a sample list of what I might be running in the future, just for experimental reasons:

30 Manazaars
17 Locks
2 Duplicant
2 Shaman
3 Wire
3 Uba
3 Rod

SB:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar  (wtf?)
3 Fiery Temper
3 Viashino Heretic
3 Pyroblast
1 Duplicant

Pyrostatic Pillar, in multiples, is absolutely game-breaking.  We can just sit back and cast big guys and locks while the opponent squirms.  Moreover, we can get locks out, then cast multiple pyrostatic pillars and just win that way.  Moxes become VERY hard to cast with multiple pillars out.

I don't think this will be better than the list with spheres in it, but it might, as it does do very well having 2 Shaman and 2 Duplicant MD.  I really like those numbers, as well as 3 Null Rod, probably more than I like 3 Sphere.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 07:07:17 pm by Evenpence » Logged

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yespuhyren
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« Reply #94 on: March 01, 2006, 07:12:34 pm »

I really wish there was a way to fit Pillars 3/4 in the SB against Gifts/Combo, and yeah, it is far better than SOR because of Rebuild and stuff.  The main thing about REB though, is that most GOOD decks don't play that.  I know OFM doesn't play it, gifts doesn't play it, etc.

Its really the only reason I would have it in though.  I'm a big fan of the 3 MD rods, as it also frees up the SB of 2 slots.  The Resistors haven't proven to be ABSOLUTELY necessary, and as such made room for the extra rod and 2 more slots - being in your case, Shaman 2 and Duplicant 2.

The 2 Rods freed from the board means that you can add in the 2nd/3rd pillar or 4th REB.

So, even against combo, we now have in addition to all our locks, 2 shamans and 3 rods MD.  This should be enough, and having 2-4 pillars in the SB are also extras to seal the deal.

EDIT:
SB:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar  (wtf?)
3 Fiery Temper
3 Viashino Heretic
3 Pyroblast
1 Duplicant

That SB is only 14 cards, which means you can add 1 more Temper/Duplicant/Pblast
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 07:29:35 pm by yespuhyren » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: March 01, 2006, 07:53:20 pm »

So it is.  I'd probably add in the 4th Temper then, but it really depends on the meta.

The beautiful thing about Pyrostatic Pillar is that it substitutes for locks that are inferior to it.  Like, when siding in on the play against Gifts, you just take out 3 Wire for 3 Pillar.

Revamped Sideboard previous build with no spheres/3 rod/2 shaman/2 dups.

4 Fiery Temper
4 Pyroblast
3 Viashino Heretic
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Duplicant

The pyroblast/pillar numbers might get inverted then.

However, I think we have an optimal list of Ubawire, then, and it's sphereless!

I do like 3 Null Rod/2 Shaman/2 Duplicant ALOT more than I like the 3 Spheres, and Pyrostatic Pillar will make up for the loss of Resistor.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 07:56:43 pm by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: March 01, 2006, 08:28:08 pm »

The one thing I don't like is having only 1 duplicant in the board, as Oath really is our hardest matchup, and even though the wires help, the ability to SB out

-2 Shaman
+2 Duplicant is really powerful

I still can't completely make my mind up on REB, as although its amazing in the board against energy flux, its not really something I would side out lock pieces for in other matches.  There aren't THAT many decks that actually play flux either, as the main blue control decks (Gifts, CS, Oath) don't run the flux.  Its only the random fishlike decks, and some TPS decks that actually can ruin us with Flux.  The random fish decks we already have 4x Fiery Temper against, and just running the Pillars is enough to hurt most combo/tps decks and aren't artifacts, and are therefore unaffected by Flux.

Basically, I can't decide if its worth it to dedicate SB spots against a single card thats not played all that often.
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« Reply #97 on: March 01, 2006, 08:31:02 pm »

Right now, I'm putting it in the SB, because while I hated it before, I forgot how much I hated it when Energy Flux ripped me a new one in the Top 8.

What the hell is out there against Slaver?  We need something against them.

Energy Flux in Gifts SB would be tech.  They SHOULD run it, but never will.  Oath doesn't need help, so they will never run Flux.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 08:33:47 pm by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2006, 01:40:29 am »

Hello, there.

Although it is becoming slightly of topic, but since the recent posts have been discussing about the sideboard of the Uba Lock deck, does anybody feel that Blood Moon from opponent is quite detrimental to the Uba Lock deck?

I know that Energy Flux is much more scarier, but this Blood Moon turns off all of the utility lands and make the strategy of overpowering opponent with one lock component after another seem quite shaky, as the Blood Moon also make our mana comes in parity with the opponent. i.e, no 3 mana or more mana from 1 land anymore.

Thank you all.
 
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« Reply #99 on: March 02, 2006, 01:56:51 am »

Blood moon schools this deck.  Well, sorta.

Luckily, the only decks that play Blood Moon are bad.

EDIT:  I removed the other thread before it got locked.  Suggesting that we should ever drop Null Rod, at any time, for any metagame still draws a ton of, "This is stupid."
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 02:22:17 am by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2006, 02:35:09 am »

Have any of you had problems actually winning the match in the time alotted against an opponent who refused to scoop?
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« Reply #101 on: March 02, 2006, 02:38:59 am »

Blood moon schools this deck.  Well, sorta.

Luckily, the only decks that play Blood Moon are bad.


I see. What do you think about some CS or Gift decks, designed to carry some basic lands with enough fetchlands to fetch those basics when needed. They design it that way for mana stability so as to avoid wasteland effects, plus to use nonbasic hate cards in their sideboard when needed.

I think if I am not mistaken I remembered a couple times a go I saw some CS list with at least 2 Blood Moons in the sideboard. They don't carry Energy Fluxes, but they carry that nasty enchantment.

Suppose that Blood Moon appears to be quite interesting for those player to bring in their sideboard, then what is your suggestion for our sideboard to fight that card? It can't be killed easily with the present sideboard without altering the color of the manabase, and some reworks on the maindeck components as well.

Reworking the manabase and trying to fit some Naturalize, or maybe Ray of Revelation in the sideboard is what I could think for the present.

But if the majority of the Uba Lock players agree that it is not a direct threat in the heavy powered field, then maybe it is just OK. Because in my field, some people really using them in their sideboard, and having to see that Moon on the table again and again round through another without being able to side some deterence is just plain tiring for me.Smile

Thank you all.


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« Reply #102 on: March 02, 2006, 02:44:40 am »

Slaver wrecks us pretty good already.  They don't think they need Blood Moons against us.
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« Reply #103 on: March 02, 2006, 03:33:56 am »

blood moon is an all around bad card. its not really mana denial, since enemy can at worst tap their lands for colorless (from their prespective). both every teir deck and the metagame decks that prey on the tier decks, all run tons of non basics lands. theres no way to run bloodmoon wo hurting yourself. tapping out to play 3 cost enchantment that is only a semi-hoser that is semi-balanced. yawn. do better.

re: wishing null rod only effected opponent
lord I miss running infinite granite shards.
4xgranite shard was the removal/kill condition in my 4 color, type 2 hokori dust drinker + icy manipulator/floodbringer prison deck.

re: pyrotastic pillar
not interested in the slightest. who cares about combo? if you cant beat them w chalice, null rod, and resistor, you are trying too hard. pyropillar HAS to be strictly worse than redblasts as a metagame call.

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« Reply #104 on: March 02, 2006, 03:34:36 am »

Pyrostatic Pillar kicks Gifts ass though.

EDIT:  Well, not really.  But they don't expect it, that's for sure.

DOUBLE EDIT:  I'm trying it out.  Dark Confidant combo kicked my ass the last time I played it.

I keep thinking Blood Moon says ALL LANDS.  Like, we drafted The Dark earlier in the week (a set, not boosters) and I was like, "Dude, mono-red would kick ass in this draft because once you play Blood Moon, your opponent can't do shit."  I was like, 'I should make a deck around Blood Moon."

Okay.  So I DID.  I MADE A DECK AROUND BLOOD MOON.

Okay, so I own four copies of The Dark Blood Moons.  So as I'm playing my friend, he thinks the same thing as I do, and we're both like, "THIS CARD IS SO OVERLOOKED IT'S UNBELIEVABLE."

So we run through like a series of decks, like 4-5 decks, Gifts, Slaver, Oath, 5c Stax, and something else, full matches on each one,

WHEN I SUDDENLY READ THE CARD.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 03:43:31 am by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #105 on: March 02, 2006, 08:00:13 am »

I don't know why everyone says dropping rod to SB is stupid.  I was doing that for a good while about 3 months ago, and it was good for me.
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« Reply #106 on: March 02, 2006, 04:19:55 pm »

I don't know why either.  It's not like Null Rod is the only thing that wins us games.  We don't even run the full number of them in the MD.  I guess people that play other decks really fear Null Rod more than the other components of the deck, and so when we say that we might think about dropping them, they call us dumb.

I don't think it's smart for large tournaments, but for aggro enviroments, Karn is definitely better than Null Rod in most cases.
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« Reply #107 on: March 02, 2006, 04:43:46 pm »

Yeah, we were just thinking about it in a separate thread, which I removed, because it was getting too stupid.

"Karn isn't that good.  Null Rod is really good."
"Drop Null Rod?  You don't even know how to play the deck."
"Are you serious?  Null Rod is way too good to cut."
"Karn is hosed by Null Rod, and I'd rather have Null Rod than Karn."
"Why not have both in your deck?  Vroman did that and won with it."
"How often do you want Karn in your hand and how often do you want Null Rod?"
"Why is Karn so much better than Null Rod?"
"Hey, play both.  Karn can make Null Rod a 2/2 beater at worst."

And so on.
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« Reply #108 on: March 02, 2006, 06:50:50 pm »

Karn making Null Rod a beater is hot.

When did JD join the ranks of sadistic prison players? I thought I'd join the ranks of masturbatory combo players before that ever happened. What a strange world we live in.

Anyway, have the Uniball detractors noticed how wicked good it + Tangle Wire is against decks with Islands? I did some testing against Gifts the other night, and if you can turn off Force for a turn it's basically game over. I also noticed that Tangle Wire + Null Rod is not nearly as hot as Tangle Wire + Gorilla Shaman.

I did some minor tweaking after that sesh and came up with

17
30
2 Uba
3 Wire
3 Sph33r
2 Null Rod
2 Shaman
1 Karn

I'm not sure if there's too much mox hate or what. Maybe I'm overly aggressive with Chalice for 0 (which, by the way, is also much hotter with Tangle Wire than Null Rod), but I find myself drawing into hands that only work if I either set Chalice at 0 or drop turn 1 Null Rod and basically muck on Chalice for a few turns. Maybe I'll drop back down to one Shaman and end up more or less where I started.
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« Reply #109 on: March 02, 2006, 07:37:30 pm »

I had a list very similiar to that one up for a long time:

Standard 47.
3 Uba Mask
3 Tangle Wire
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Null Rod
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Duplicant

Duplicant is better than Karn because there's no dyssynergy with Null Rod.

I personally don't fear Force of Will hardly at all.  I don't want my opponent to ever mana drain anything I do.  Sphere is good at this, especially in a 3 sphere/3 tangle wire build, but Uba Mask is just better at removing counters.

In fact, if I have multiple threats in my hand, and my opponent doesn't force my first threat, I get pissed off, because I fear that he's gonna force my second one.  When he does, I get extremely pissed off.  This is one of the scenarios where Sphere of Resistance comes in handy, because if they allow it, and you somehow get five mana to cast a smokestack, you are SICK.

What really pisses me off is when my opponent forces a mana crypt, and I'm holding strip mine/crucible.  With some more 1-mana lands in my hand and more threats.  My friend Mike likes to do this just to piss me off.  Smile

But yeah, I like my first threat getting forced because it's card advantage.  It's basically a 1 for 2.

Uba Mask is far superior to any other lock for getting rid of counterspells.

My current list is this:

Standard 47.
3 Uba Mask
3 Tangle Wire
3 Null Rod
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Duplicant

More consistency in pieces, plus double duplicant.  Double Shaman is good too, but I can cut one or both of them for something else, but the problem is when you cut Shaman for stuff, you have to add in other things too.  Like...

Standard 47.
4 Uba Mask
4 Tangle Wire
3 Null Rod
2 Duplicant

I don't think this list is as good, because Uba Mask redundancy is nice, but it's not needed.  The 4th Tangle Wire, however, is REALLY nice.  However, it doesn't have Shaman to compliment it.

I might try this list:

Standard 47.
4 Tangle Wire
3 Uba Mask
3 Null Rod
2 Duplicant
1 Gorilla Shaman

This might work better than everything, but it limits my chance of drawing Shaman to make Tangle Wire effective.  I like 3/2 better.

Another thing that might be tried is the following:

Standard 47.
4 Tangle Wire
3 Uba Mask
2 Null Rod
2 Duplicant
2 Gorilla Shaman.

I don't think this has ever been tried before.  This puts the pressure on Gorilla Shaman, which has dyssynergy with Chalice at 1, which is why we wanted to get rid of him in the first place.  This hasn't be tried before for a reason - it's probably the worst of all of them.

I think the current build that Yesphuryen and myself has come to is the best, if you're not trying to incorporate spheres.

With spheres in, everything gets mucked up, because out of this skeleton:

Standard 47.
3 Uba Mask
3 Tangle Wire
3 Null Rod
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Duplicant

At least THREE of those components has to go.  Unless you're JD, and put Tangle Wires in the board (which I don't think is right as it doesn't give you enough SB space), you've got a real problem on your hands here.

You could try the following:

Standard 47.
3 Spheres
3 Tangle Wire
2 Null Rod
2 Uba Mask
2 Duplicant
1 Gorilla Shaman

This list sacrifices an Uba Mask for a Duplicant.

You could try to get rid of Shamans all together, but I don't think that's particularly advantagous, because then your opponent gets to keep moxes in play.

You could try to get rid of Duplicants all together and put them in the board, which isn't a particularly bad option:

3 Spheres
3 Tangle Wires
3 Uba Mask
2 Null Rod
2 Gorilla Shaman

This is really good against blue based control, but does bad against most other stuff because of the lack of Duplicant.

Many people have put locks in the board for certain decks, the most notable of these is JD's putting Wires in the board.  I think Spheres are better to put in the board, because you can side them in for Duplicants and other such things against Blue Based Control (like Gifts or Slaver).

There needs to be ALOT of SB analysis when it comes to HOW MANY of a lock piece you put in the board.  I personally feel that Wire is better against the entire meta than spheres, and will probably not put spheres in the SB, as my SB is already getting crammed for space.

I already don't lose on the play, I really don't need to increase my chances of losing on the draw by putting Sphere into the MD and Wires into the board.  I'd rather do it the other way around if anything.  I want to be VERY strong on the draw game 1.

I ran a version with no resistors in the MD or SB, and went undefeated on the play (except for one game because of double energy flux, where I didn't have pyroblasts in my SB), at Blue Bell.

Our deck does NOT have a problem on the play against blue based control.

Also, a few things about the non-core group of cards.

You don't need 4 of any of the non-core group.
Singletons are not as beneficial to the deck as adding to other locks to increase probability and consistency.
However, if you play 2 Null Rod MD, you're going to want to play 2 Null Rod SB as well, to make up for the losses that going down on a Null Rod might give you Game 1.  Null Rod sometimes does singlehandedly win you games, and against Slaver, you're going to want a 4th Null Rod in particular.
3 Uba Mask is pretty much what the community has settled upon as the optimum number, although going down to 2 isn't necessarily bad, although you pretty much forfeit the chance for Uba Lock, and you're more dependant on Welder now, but your Slaver Matchup is actually better game 1.  If you go with 2 Uba Mask MD, you probably don't want to go with more than 1 SB.
Sphere of Resistance is good at 3 or 4, but never 1 or 2, and is actually a very good SB card at a set of 4, or possibly even 3.
Tangle Wire is good at 2, 3, or 4.  I believe it to be best at 3, because you increase your chances of drawing it in the early-mid game but have a lower chance of drawing it in your opening seven.  If you run 3, I've found 1 in the board to be VERY good, as you can side it in on the draw to increase the probability that you'll get it in your opening hand.
Duplicant is good at any number, although a singleton Duplicant is a BAD plan against Oath.  After EXTENSIVE testing, I'd go with 0 or 2 in the MD.  You want to have 3 or 4 total with SB, however.  If you're not running any other Oath Hate, I'd go with 4 Duplicants total, however, if you're also running additional hate, like Jester's Cap (SICK!) or Maze of Ith, I would only go with 3 Duplicants, as you don't want to draw a 6cc guy in your opening hand most of the time.
Gorilla Shaman is better with Tangle Wire than he is with Sphere of Resistance.  If you don't understand why this is, you should not be playing Ubastax, straight up.  He, unlike Duplicant, can be run as a 1-of in the MD.  He is not an "answer" to deck strategies, so he does not need to be played as an at-least-to-of-mentality.  He can also be played in the board, but I would never play more than 2 of these guys total because of dyssynergy at Chalice at 1.

Personally, I have crafted the MD with the SB VERY heavily in mind.  Because of this, I don't go down to 2 Null Rod (because it cuts 2 slots away from the board) and also I have taken into consideration ways to combat Oath without giving us dead SB cards (Jester's Cap is so sick against Oath, but nearly nothing else, so it had to go), as well as trying to minimize slots in the SB simply against Oath (Maze of Ith) that do little against other decks.  This is also why I have Shaman maindecked.  He is better in the Maindeck Game 1 because if I lose the roll, I will be much happier playing second with Shamans in my deck.  Moreover, he can be boarded out for things, but not always be boarded in for things, giving us more slots in the SB.

The SB is a VERY important part of my deck, and I view it as more important than the MD in most cases, as most of the games you play will be WITH SB.  Because of this, I have spent quite a long time developing and testing new SB tech and have comeout with a diverified and intense SB to go with the MD.  The pyrostatic pillars are still in testing (about 50 games tested with them now) and they've been better than I've expected, actually.  There have been times where they've actually screwed me over, however, and I'm probably going to cut them, even though I like them alot.   The current MD and SB up for netdecking, however, is the following:

4 Bazaar
4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
1 Academy
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

4 Smokestack
4 Crucible
4 Chalice
4 Welder
1 Trinisphere

3 Uba Mask
3 Tangle Wire
3 Null Rod
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Duplicant

SB:
4 Fiery Temper
3 Viashino Heretic
1-2 Duplicant
6-7 Metagame Slots

I really have determined that those 6-7 slots are totally metagame based.  I put Jester's Caps in mine because they kick Oath's ass.  Everyone can decide what to put in theirs based on what is in their area.  If you have alot of Slaver, play something else, but if you insist on playing this deck, your best options are probably Lava Darts, Null Rods, and Pyroblasts in addition to this.

If you're getting schooled by Energy Flux every week, Pyroblast is the way to go.


I hope this helped some people.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 08:33:35 pm by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2006, 11:41:10 pm »

I'm definitely cutting the pillars back out, as they just haven't seemed necessary to me.  Glad you like our deck list though, I really do think that what you and I are playing at the moment is the optimal list.

I really do think its funny how we both ended up with the same lists without talking about them card for card though  :lol:

EDIT:  The SB I'm going to use right now is

4x Blast
4x Temper
3x Heretic
2x Duplicant
2x Metagame Slot
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 12:02:26 am by yespuhyren » Logged

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« Reply #111 on: March 03, 2006, 12:01:40 am »

Well, I know I sent you that PM looking for a good version of a list without spheres, as you had been playing without spheres for longer than any of us, but I think I've been playing with that list for longer than anyone - I was playtesting it 2 weeks before the tournament at Blue Bell, and I'm surprised I've had the same one for a while now.  I'd like to get spheres back in there somewhere, but there's no room for them.

I suppose you could cut the Shamans and a lock piece, but then you don't have good synergy with Tangle Wire.  Killing moxes to force your opponent to tap out his lands during his upkeep mid-game is tech.

But you're right, we both pretty much came to the same list without being in contact about it.
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yespuhyren
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« Reply #112 on: March 03, 2006, 12:05:31 am »

Although I really don't like spheres, as I've been looking for alternatives and playing without them forever,realistically, to play spheres, I would do this

-2 Shaman
-2 Duplicant

+3 resistor
+1 Tangle Wire

the extra 2 duplicants would be in the SB as my 2 metagame slots

The thing is though, is that I really hate to cut Dupes from the MD as so many decks tend to use Tinker/Colossus, so having this is just so good, although the spheres version is strong as well.  Its really tough to figure out which is better, as they are both situationally better.
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« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2006, 12:26:52 am »

I see the Duplicants as more insurance against Oath, and assurance in winning the Welder war with the mirror.

Against Gifts, I think the key is to strain their base so they can't play stuff while you can play locks, but if you should get an active welder out so they can't tinker-colossus and then that's all the better.

I would actually play a 4 Resist Orb/3 Tangle Wire build if I were to fit Spheres in for cutting Shamans and Duplicants, but I think the deck is better with Duplicants and Shamans in.

I think the MD should be able to handle all kinds of decks, and not be geared towards beating blue based control, for instance.

However, if I were up against a Gifts heavy field, I would definitely MD Shaman and SB Duplicants.  It would look like this:

Standard 47.
3 Resist Orbs
3 Tangle Wire
3 Null Rod
2 Uba Mask
2 Gorilla Shaman

The board would be:
4 Pyroblast
4 Duplicant
4 Fiery Temper
3 Viashino Heretic


2 Uba Mask sucks though.

EDIT:  This example proves how important the SB is to this deck.  By MDing Spheres and shifting a usual part of the deck to the SB, we eat up SB slots.  I don't have ANY room for anything.  I have 0 metagame slots open if I want to run this build, although I'm pretty well covered against a variety of decks.  I still lose to Oath, and my Slaver matchup probably stays the same, although it might actually get a little better.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 12:42:17 am by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #114 on: March 03, 2006, 06:56:36 am »

Not to mention that 2 uba masks means that your will be getting the ubazaar engine and just the general advantage of uba MUCH less this way.  Its actually good enough to be a 4 of, and its probably one of the things I would like to add a 4th of more than any other lock, because of Ubazaar and the ability to randomly screw blue decks draws.

I really just love being able to respond to a brainstorm by bazaaring, pitching a mask, and welding it out to screw people over.  They never see it coming.
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« Reply #115 on: March 03, 2006, 11:38:18 am »

Ok, here is something that I tested last night against OATH:

Standard 47(jesus, i cant belive i have only 13 cards to work with....)

4 Tangle Wire
3 Uba Mask
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 POWDER KEG

omg! wtf! noob! powder keg? say it isnt so!   Here is my logic,(not all is related to oath matchup)
1.  I like these when I am on the draw as it allows me to pop off multiple moxen/chalice. 
2.  OR, I can sit on it a turn and pop off welder/mox monkey(this is much faster than waiting on b-ring)  Granted the keg is in place of monkey, but its ablilty to pop off multiple permanents is VERY helpful to Stax.   OF COURSE it requires some thought about what you drop. 
3.  In addition, your chalice @ 1 gets better and you can pop off your chalice when u do draw a welder.  Try it, then complain.
4.  GETS RID OF SPIRIT TOKENS!  once i got a powderkeg at 0 and then wasted the orchard, it won me the game.

Null rod exists, i realize but 3 copies doesnt warrant NOT tryin the kegs. 

I only lost the games where oath came out first turn(very easy to lose those games...)

In my opinion you have several cards that are OPTIMAL on the play:
4 welder
4 crucible------oh so solid
3 sphere
3 uba------------more disruptive than i ever imagined
4 stax
4 chalice
1 Trinisphere
(3 null rod)-granted these are fine on the draw, but again, optimal on the play as they cant use them even once.

And then you have cards that are OPTIMAL on the draw.
4 tangle wire
3 powderkeg
(3 monkey) if on the play, u let them think about how best to use their moxen.
(2/3 dupes) possibly,  most lists seem to run 2.  I have a hard time with this guy as there are no tutors to fetch him.  Having 2 of these guys in your opening hand kinda sux i think.unless you also have 2 workshops Smile

I believe it is always important to maximize your 'on the play' cards, while having some solid on the draw cards.

Since Oath is a hard matchup, and I know it has been suggested, but consider ensnaring bridge,  for instance the second place oath deck that won in richmond had no bounce(if it did then im blind)  This is better than Dupe because you dont have to hold it.  You can cast it as soon as you see it.  While i know you wont even be able to swing with your welders, thats where B-ring comes into play and wins u the game.  Or, you simply weld it out.  Bridge buys u lots of time(unless its destoryed, but christ, you can say that about any card...) and isnt that what stax needs???  Bridge+no cards(thank you ubazaar!) = bad news for Aggro/Oath/Heavy D(aka Darksteel Colossus)
mike
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 11:44:55 am by madmanmike25 » Logged

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Evenpence
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« Reply #116 on: March 03, 2006, 03:13:30 pm »

Ensnaring Bridge is the best card available against Oath aside Jester's Cap and Duplicant.

The two have pros and cons, but there are essentially a few things that make Jester's Cap and Duplicant better:

Ensnaring Bridge can be bounced, then they can Time Walk and win the game.

If you activate Jester's Cap, you've won the game unless they get an angel in their hand.

Duplicant RFGs the guy so they can't get them back.  They can't activate Oath if you have a welder in play and a Duplicant in the graveyard.  They can activate Oath if you have an ensnaring bridge in play, though, and just shoot for the rushing river.
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« Reply #117 on: March 03, 2006, 10:03:58 pm »

Alright, I'll throw in 2 more of my cents to this discussion; overall I haven't been able to playtest much at all lately, but the little bit I've done has mostly been trying to resolve the issue of which combinations of cards are optimal in this awesome deck. 

First of all I want to say that I also dropped SoR from my list, since I just found that SoR + null rod was just too much and out of the two I would much prefer having a null rod.  Secondly, I love Tangle Wire; I remember loving it when I played 5c Stax and now that I'm testing it in UbaStax, I feel the same way about it again.

As for the number of tangle wires, I'm currently trying out 4.  My reasoning for this is (1) that I will be on the draw (theoretically) 50% of the time in game 1 and I want to have this in my opening hand as much as I can if I'm on the draw.  Secondly, it's so good at gaining back tempo against so many decks, but especially against blue based control decks and against random janky bullshit.

As far as my number of Uba Masks goes, I currently have 3 of them, because I really don't like the thought of completely exiling gorilla shaman from the list; I definitely agree with your sentiment though, yespuhyren:  I wish I could fit the 4th into the deck because Ubazaar brokeness almost always = game win.
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« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2006, 11:26:28 pm »

What are you cutting for the 4th Tangle Wire?

The build right now which we're trying out (and liking very much) is:

Standard 47.  (Regular Manabase w/Bazaars + Chalices/Crucibles/Stax/Welders/Trinisphere)
3 Uba Mask
3 Tangle Wire
3 Null Rod
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Duplicant

What are you cutting to get a 4th Tangle Wire?
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yespuhyren
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« Reply #119 on: March 04, 2006, 01:02:52 am »

My issue, is I really want to play 4 wires AND 4 ubas.  Can't do it easily though.
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Team Blitzkrieg:  The Vintage Lightning War.

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