Pitch Long

[Luiggi]

I can see that the SS matchup is pretty rough... What about stuff like U/W Fish, or U/B/W SS (I played against this deck 4 times at Waterbury with my 2-Land Belcher, and it was sad times)?

Also, what cards does everyone generally side out? I know what comes in in the major matchups, but pulling cards is always the hardest thing to figure out...

Luis

[Moxlotus]

U/W Fish is much easier than SS.  They have Rods or Chalices.  The deck can run them over.  I'm not sure what U/B/W lists you played against but if the deck has lots of guys (18+) and include True Believer than you are probably in trouble.

[TK]

So i decided to play pitch long for the first time. day one waterbury went ok for me i was in contention until i lost the last round and ended up going 5-3 with SS.

So around 2 in the morning me and spooky kid are sitting in the hotel room while the carps and mark Pharaoh are asleep and building decks for the next day.

So i decide that i really want to play something aggressive but i dont fell like playing my usually stax and or gifts build. Spooky is planning on playing grim long so i decide that i will play pitch long. Becker had told me in Charlotte that the deck was really good and i should try it out sometime. so me and spooky sit and test the combo mirror for like 2 hours and then decide we should probably get a few hours of sleep in. I wake up get ready for the tourney, once we get there I'm going through all of Ben's stuff trying to find all the combo cards i need since i hadn't brought common cards like dark rituals or anything like that. I pretty much just dive into Ben's ridiculous foil Asian binder and begin to grab everything i dont have on me and finish making the deck.

The deck was really solid for me all day with my only match loss or even game loss coming to feinstein play u/w fish in round 3 of the swiss. But anyway the deck was a joy to play it was actually the first time i have ever played a ritual based deck in any t1 tourney. I will be writing a full report sometime today when i get a chance.

P.S  Eric Becker is a savage deck builder and my Hero.......lol

[Luiggi]

U/W Fish is much easier than SS.  They have Rods or Chalices.  The deck can run them over.  I'm not sure what U/B/W lists you played against but if the deck has lots of guys (18+) and include True Believer than you are probably in trouble.

So against them you bring in the bounce? What do you take out?

The decks I played against ran stuff like Bobs, Meddling Mages, Stifles, Force of Will, Duress, Null Rods, Chalice, Kataki/Flux/Lab in the SB, etc. So basically a hybrid of SS and U/W Fish, I think.

TK: looking forward to your report. Please include how you sideboarded, if possible, .

Luis

[DoubleDrain]

So i decided to play pitch long for the first time. day one waterbury went ok for me i was in contention until i lost the last round and ended up going 5-3 with SS.

So around 2 in the morning me and spooky kid are sitting in the hotel room while the carps and mark Pharaoh are asleep and building decks for the next day.

So i decide that i really want to play something aggressive but i dont fell like playing my usually stax and or gifts build. Spooky is planning on playing grim long so i decide that i will play pitch long. Becker had told me in Charlotte that the deck was really good and i should try it out sometime. so me and spooky sit and test the combo mirror for like 2 hours and then decide we should probably get a few hours of sleep in. I wake up get ready for the tourney, once we get there I'm going through all of Ben's stuff trying to find all the combo cards i need since i hadn't brought common cards like dark rituals or anything like that. I pretty much just dive into Ben's ridiculous foil Asian binder and begin to grab everything i dont have on me and finish making the deck.

The deck was really solid for me all day with my only match loss or even game loss coming to feinstein play u/w fish in round 3 of the swiss. But anyway the deck was a joy to play it was actually the first time i have ever played a ritual based deck in any t1 tourney. I will be writing a full report sometime today when i get a chance.

P.S  Eric Becker is a savage deck builder and my Hero.......lol

I am curious as to how many gifts/CS decks you played. How close were the matches?

[ErkBek]

The only change I'd make is this:  My quesiton is: why Flooded Strand over Bloodstained Mire?  In my testing, I wanted Mire more frequently than Strand.  The Strand is better in the Stax match, but the Mire is better everywhere else.  I think that 1/1 may be appropriate. 

I started off with Mire in the deck and swapped them for strands after testing the post board stax matchup.

I can see that the SS matchup is pretty rough... What about stuff like U/W Fish, or U/B/W SS (I played against this deck 4 times at Waterbury with my 2-Land Belcher, and it was sad times)?

I'd say the SS matchup is about 40-60. I've played 12 games vs. the SS and have an overall record of 5-7 against it. 6 of the games I have lost invovled them playing a both a duress/hymn and a FoW by the end of turn 2. They usually follow this disruption up with a CA man and get far ahead in little time. The mana disruption suprisingly hasn't been all that much of a problem.

So against them you bring in the bounce? What do you take out?

The decks I played against ran stuff like Bobs, Meddling Mages, Stifles, Force of Will, Duress, Null Rods, Chalice, Kataki/Flux/Lab in the SB, etc. So basically a hybrid of SS and U/W Fish, I think.

Vs. UW Fish I'd prob go

+1 Massacre
+1 Hurkyl's
+1 Tendrils
-1 Desire
-1 Iseal
-1 Necro (when on the draw)
-1 MisD (when on the play)

Massacre owns WU fish. I haven't really gotten around to testing this matchup.

[zulander]

I know this is the most noobish question ever, but how is misd actually like fow 5-8? I think the card confuzzles me  ???

[Moxlotus]

I know this is the most noobish question ever, but how is misd actually like fow 5-8? I think the card confuzzles me  ???

You misdirect their force of will/mana drain to target the misdirection instead of your bomb and then proceed to win the game.

[zulander]

I know this is the most noobish question ever, but how is misd actually like fow 5-8? I think the card confuzzles me  ???

You misdirect their force of will/mana drain to target the misdirection instead of your bomb and then proceed to win the game.

Oh, twas much simpler than I thought. Thanks

[Machinus]

There is a lot of good information in this thread. I appreciate the discussion from combo players.

I have a some questions for Eric:

1) Is Wheel of Fortune good enough to consider altering the manabase for it? Is it possible for it to work with fetchlands?

2) How do you compare Xantid vs. pitch counters in the control matchup to decide which is better? (Also, this obviously affects the manabase. How much do basic lands matter?)

3) What are your ideas about the mirror, or against other versions of long?

[ErkBek]

1) Is Wheel of Fortune good enough to consider altering the manabase for it? Is it possible for it to work with fetchlands?

Intially I thought playing a 5C manabase just to run wheel may be worth it. However, after further testing I've decided that I'd rather have the following

-Basic Lands
-Brainstorm -> Fetch
-quicker thresh + replayable lands post will
-massacre on the SB

With that said, I'm yet to put together a 5C build.

2) How do you compare Xantid vs. pitch counters in the control matchup to decide which is better? (Also, this obviously affects the manabase. How much do basic lands matter?)

Xantid is huge against control decks in games 2 and 3, however it doesn't answer things like duress and sphere of resistance on control's sideboards. A resolved xantid is definitely not game over for them when they draw sideboard cards too. Xantid deals only with counterspells, something that FoW and MisD both do quite well.

I'd say the drain matchup is about 70-30 game 1, while games 2 and 3 really depend on their sideboarding plan. I decided that rather than overkill this matchup, I'd rather run a better sideboard for your bad matchups.

Basics are nice to have, but as stated above there are additional reasons to run this manabase. JD ran 1 Trop, 1 Bayou, and 3 Xantid in his 2.5C long list since his maindeck was better vs. stax than mine.

3) What are your ideas about the mirror, or against other versions of long?

Mirror matches are often times stupid, and this is no exception. Without duress these games will just be play a bomb, do you have a counter?

[Mr. Type 4]

Mirror matches are often times stupid, and this is no exception. Without duress these games will just be play a bomb, do you have a counter?

The Storm Combo mirror is perhaps the stupidest mirror match ever, often comming down to who goes first.  I don't know how many times I've experienced the following scenario, but it's real frustrating:

Opposing Long player: I win the roll, ok, I go first.  Keep my hand.
Me: Keep.
Opposing Long guy: Play Black Lotus.
Me: Force of Will
Opposing Long guy: Force you back.  Win game. Yay!

Pretty random.   

[Implacable]

Mirror matches are often times stupid, and this is no exception. Without duress these games will just be play a bomb, do you have a counter?

The Storm Combo mirror is perhaps the stupidest mirror match ever, often comming down to who goes first.  I don't know how many times I've experienced the following scenario, but it's real frustrating:

Opposing Long player: I win the roll, ok, I go first.  Keep my hand.
Me: Keep.
Opposing Long guy: Play Black Lotus.
Me: Force of Will
Opposing Long guy: Force you back.  Win game. Yay!

Pretty random.   

It's just a roll of the dice to see who wins, which is exactly the scenario that Type 1 has so far managed to avoid having as a general metagame.  That's why a combo deck that becomes too prevalent is usually restricted out of existence.  Control on Control is fine, but Combo v. Combo is pissant.

[Smmenen]

I'd say the drain matchup is about 70-30 game 1, while games 2 and 3 really depend on their sideboarding plan. I decided that rather than overkill this matchup, I'd rather run a better sideboard for your bad matchups.

Note that MDGifts probably actually has a favorable Pitch Long match, at least, post board:  4-5 REBS post board and 4 FoW, 3 Misd, 4 Drains, and 4 Scroll md.  I would seriously fear MDG if I were a pitch long player. 

[VegasJake]

Mirror matches are often times stupid, and this is no exception. Without duress these games will just be play a bomb, do you have a counter?

The Storm Combo mirror is perhaps the stupidest mirror match ever, often comming down to who goes first.  I don't know how many times I've experienced the following scenario, but it's real frustrating:

Opposing Long player: I win the roll, ok, I go first.  Keep my hand.
Me: Keep.
Opposing Long guy: Play Black Lotus.
Me: Force of Will
Opposing Long guy: Force you back.  Win game. Yay!

Pretty random.   

If your opponent gets a first turn lotus that often I'd say they might be cheating.

[ErkBek]

I'd say the drain matchup is about 70-30 game 1, while games 2 and 3 really depend on their sideboarding plan. I decided that rather than overkill this matchup, I'd rather run a better sideboard for your bad matchups.

Note that MDGifts probably actually has a favorable Pitch Long match, at least, post board:  4-5 REBS post board and 4 FoW, 3 Misd, 4 Drains, and 4 Scroll md.  I would seriously fear MDG if I were a pitch long player. 

MDG is a scary matchup, but nobody really plays your list. From my testing Pitch Long has the upper hand game 1 by a little, but I haven't tested games 2 and 3 yet (which will prob be unfavorable for Pitch Long). MDG's ability to have 2x pitch counters on turn 1 or 2 can get really frustrating when trying to resolve your spells.

[M.Solymossy]

or stop theirs from resolving, eric.

[sean1i0]

I've done a little bit of testing with this list since the last time that I posted and so far I really like it.  As far as MDGifts and combo goes, I had a thought.  Sadly, I haven't gotten to test this yet, so it's only a thought, but here it is:  Eric, you said that brain freezes are in the sideboard so that something could be done about combo matchups post-board; after that Paul commented that without duress, the combo matchup can be a real coin toss.  So, I've thought about dropping the brain freezes for duress and possibly trying to squeeze a 3rd one in the board somehow.  It seems that this would help out not only the combo matchup, but also possibly the MDGifts matchup.  The only thing that I'm really not sure about without more testing is if that would dilute the threat density too much, but for some reason I don't think it should.  It does seem to me, however, that as good as MDGifts actually is, there should at least be some sideboard plan available in case it becomes more common in the metagame.

[froz3nn]

why would you have cards in your sideboard for a matchup that you dont expect to play?        .

[Implacable]

why would you have cards in your sideboard for a matchup that you dont expect to play?

He's not saying that he's going to build his sideboard around facing Meandeck Gifts; he's saying that he's going to take Meandeck Gifts into account while constructing his sideboard. Cards aren't good against just one deck, you know.

[Liam-K]

I've done a little bit of testing with this list since the last time that I posted and so far I really like it.  As far as MDGifts and combo goes, I had a thought.  Sadly, I haven't gotten to test this yet, so it's only a thought, but here it is:  Eric, you said that brain freezes are in the sideboard so that something could be done about combo matchups post-board; after that Paul commented that without duress, the combo matchup can be a real coin toss.  So, I've thought about dropping the brain freezes for duress and possibly trying to squeeze a 3rd one in the board somehow.  It seems that this would help out not only the combo matchup, but also possibly the MDGifts matchup.  The only thing that I'm really not sure about without more testing is if that would dilute the threat density too much, but for some reason I don't think it should.  It does seem to me, however, that as good as MDGifts actually is, there should at least be some sideboard plan available in case it becomes more common in the metagame.

The problem with this is the blue card ratio, and increasing the opportunity cost of pitching by increasing the average gasiness of your blue stuff.

[Implacable]

U/W Fish is much easier than SS.  They have Rods or Chalices.  The deck can run them over.  I'm not sure what U/B/W lists you played against but if the deck has lots of guys (18+) and include True Believer than you are probably in trouble.

May I point out that you have ignored Meddling Mage in your analysis of the UW Fish matchup?  While it's not hard to get rid of if you just go nuts, a large quantity of your wins are not going to be the product of Storm 30 Mind's D's, but instead will be kindof tight.  It's hard to find the extra mana to tutor again and get Chain, so Meddling Mage slows you down quite a bit if it has time to resolve.  I really like the basics against the UW match; they're amazing.

[Moxlotus]

U/W Fish is much easier than SS.  They have Rods or Chalices.  The deck can run them over.  I'm not sure what U/B/W lists you played against but if the deck has lots of guys (18+) and include True Believer than you are probably in trouble.

May I point out that you have ignored Meddling Mage in your analysis of the UW Fish matchup?  While it's not hard to get rid of if you just go nuts, a large quantity of your wins are not going to be the product of Storm 30 Mind's D's, but instead will be kindof tight.  It's hard to find the extra mana to tutor again and get Chain, so Meddling Mage slows you down quite a bit if it has time to resolve.  I really like the basics against the UW match; they're amazing.

Massacre > U/W Fish
Chain > U/W Fish
Large Man>U/W Fish

Honestly, if they name Tendrils with Mage I'm going to jump for joy because that's a terrible card to name 95% of the time.

[Btown]

@ Eric

I have only been back on the vintage scene for a couple of months now, and started with CS to learn to format.  I quickly turned to Grim Long as that is more my play-style, and when I saw this list, well, there truly is such a thing as love at first sight.

Since then I have not been able to put this thing down, and have done relatively extensive testing - less the bazaars since I didn't really understand them at the time.  Most of my testing has been done versus oath, and I find this deck to be about 70%.  Drain simply isn't relevant, you out-counter the control player 7-4.  Nonetheless, the deck seems to treat me right, and   I figure the least I can do is share some of my results.  I have played in one tournament (a 35 man one, small but relatively skilled).  Here is how it went:

Round 1 - DEVASTATED by UBW Fish (0-2):

Rods, Chalices, Mages, Duress', Force of Wills, Stifles, and on top of that the Wastes and Strip that usually just do not matter.

Round 2  (2-0) - I don't know what he is playing, I won the dice roll, and the match consisted of him playing a wasteland and watching me kill him . . . twice.

Round 3  :lol: vs Oath.

A very close match, but the Misdirections were golden, and her mana drains were never a factor.  I did not sleep the night before, so some rounds are hazy to say the least.

Round 4  vs Meandeck Tendrils (2-1).

I kill him on turn one of game one.  He kills one on turn one of game two.  In game three, I force his yawgmoth's will, he can't recover, and I can act like a control player and establish something busted and win the game on turn 3 or 4.

Round 5    vs Gifts (2-0).

By far the most fun round of the day, and a round which truly shows the strenght of this deck.  I lose a very critical counter-war, and my will ends up in the bin.  He Has Drain, Misdirection, to my Will, and misdirection.  My hand is a Mox Emerald.  Fortunate for me he needs a turn to find gas and set up.  I draw cabal ritual,  .  He tinkers out DSC, im at 13.  I draw a delta, he smacks me down to two and passes.  I end up at one, because I am not in any position to draw another land to accompany my mox and ritual.  I rip . . . Demonic tutor.  I DT for tinker, Tinker away my crypt for jar (needing storm 10 here, and not having a twister left to replace will.  I jar into the nuts, which includes ancestral, I ancestral into lotus, tendrils, force of will, and I have UUBBB up in case of any shannanigans.  GG.

Round 6 - ID

Top 8 - Versus Gifts  (2-0) - not even close.

I get misdirection for his Recall game 1 on his mulligan.  He decides to force it, and I decide to force that.  He has no hand.  I have a hand.  I win.  Who is the one playing control anyways?  Game two, he mulligans again, and I have a nut draw which involves t1 bargain, play it safe, and t2 win.

Top 4- Versus Stax w Pillars.  (1-2)

Game 1, soft locked on turn 1.  Game 2 I win on turn 1 - Hooray for goldfishing.  Game 3 we both mulligan, but he won the dice roll, so he gets to play - mox, mox, shop, cap, chalice zero.  I have the turn one in my hand, but sadly it involved mox, lotus, crypt.  I lose

A few things about the deck that I am still bad with.  First and Foremost- Time Walk.  Is Walk the Sixtyth Card?  I read your post about pre/post draw 7's, but I am still unconvinced of its merits.  Can you provide me with a play situation or two?

Also, I am concerned with the fish matchup after getting devastated like that.  How can I address this matchup for better results?

Thanks
Ryan

[slyfer]

Hi,
Why don't you consider to run 1x  fact or fiction and/or 1x rebuild and/or 1x gift ungiven main deck?

I know there are so few slots available but i think these cards are bombs or "business spells", as you call them.
Gift is a 2x tutor, interacts with Will, it's instant, so you can use it as a bait during opponent eot, it's blue
Rebuild, makes storm, it's simmetrical, so you bounce also chalices and rod, or stax permament, it's blue instant, could be cycled
Fact is simply ridiculous.

I appreciate much the use of pitch counters to have free access to bombs and mana (i mean cutting duress for misD), but I think this deck could be more powerfull if you fit some INSTANT cards able to break the game, because now imho its too much "sorcery speed", and misdirection doesn't help against opponent threats (other than ancestral), it's more usefull to protect my threats.
In this sense, duress helped to avoid opponents threats better

[LordHomerCat]

Fact draws 2-3 cards for 4.  Timetwister and Tinker draw 7 cards for 3.  Seems like a better deal to me.

[rare hunter]

Hi,
Why don't you consider to run 1x  fact or fiction and/or 1x rebuild and/or 1x gift ungiven main deck?

I know there are so few slots available but i think these cards are bombs or "business spells", as you call them.
Gift is a 2x tutor, interacts with Will, it's instant, so you can use it as a bait during opponent eot, it's blue
Rebuild, makes storm, it's simmetrical, so you bounce also chalices and rod, or stax permament, it's blue instant, could be cycled
Fact is simply ridiculous.

I appreciate much the use of pitch counters to have free access to bombs and mana (i mean cutting duress for misD), but I think this deck could be more powerfull if you fit some INSTANT cards able to break the game, because now imho its too much "sorcery speed", and misdirection doesn't help against opponent threats (other than ancestral), it's more usefull to protect my threats.
In this sense, duress helped to avoid opponents threats better

This isn't Gifts, or a Gifts Variant. This is a Long varaint. Which means its based on speed. Gifts and Fact maybe be instants, but tendrils is a sorcery. Hence, an EOT fact doesn't add to the storm count. And any time you can produce that much mana, why can't you win anyway?

Fact draws 2-3 cards for 4.  Timetwister and Tinker draw 7 cards for 3.  Seems like a better deal to me.

This guy it on the head.

[Lou]

and misdirection doesn't help against opponent threats (other than ancestral), it's more usefull to protect my threats.
In this sense, duress helped to avoid opponents threats better

Don't get confused.  This is not a control deck.  The counters are not meant for your opponents threats most of time.  They are meant to protect your threats.

[Moxlotus]

Hi,
Why don't you consider to run 1x  fact or fiction and/or 1x rebuild and/or 1x gift ungiven main deck?

I know there are so few slots available but i think these cards are bombs or "business spells", as you call them.
Gift is a 2x tutor, interacts with Will, it's instant, so you can use it as a bait during opponent eot, it's blue
Rebuild, makes storm, it's simmetrical, so you bounce also chalices and rod, or stax permament, it's blue instant, could be cycled
Fact is simply ridiculous.

I appreciate much the use of pitch counters to have free access to bombs and mana (i mean cutting duress for misD), but I think this deck could be more powerfull if you fit some INSTANT cards able to break the game, because now imho its too much "sorcery speed", and misdirection doesn't help against opponent threats (other than ancestral), it's more usefull to protect my threats.
In this sense, duress helped to avoid opponents threats better

You are playing the deck completely wrong.  Instant speed is irrelevant since you just want to kill them now.  FoF and Gifts cost 4 mana and don't win you the game immediately 90% of the time.  You have no reason to be afraid of your opponents threats, you only need to be afraid of their answers.  Their answers consist of FoW and that's about it--maybe Stifle.  MisD stops both.

[Liam-K]

Also remember that it will probably cost you 1-shot resources to resolve either card, and that neither card is likely to replace them.  They won't really help you ramp.  Your investment will usually not pay off.