Pitch Long

[Whatever Works]

I still don't understand why cutting Wheel, Regrowth, Duress, and Swarm is worth the random "Misdirect your Ancestral" play.

Then you clearly dont understand pitch long. The deck doesn't run misdirection to misdirect ancestral... It runs misdirection to act as a Fow 5-7 against opponents counters when you try to resolve bombs.

This is what seperates pitch long from grim long. They play completely differently etc.

Also Swarm is by no means an auto win. Most control decks like gifts when play well will just race your swarm, and actually can win the race a decent amount of the time if played well. Sure, pitch long gets alot of turn 1-2 kills, but that doesnt mean CS doesnt get turn 3 mindslavers, or that gifts cant easy win turn 3-4.

The reason I like duress is that unlike swarm that just acts defensive... Duress is also proactive card that can be used to take there FoW off line. Or even more importantly... Taking a valuable card like Demonic, Yawg will, etc. out of there hand.

Swarm is good dont get me wrong... but duress can be used turn your going off, and you dont have to WAIT an entire turn (an eternity in type 1) to put the card to use.

Swarm is by NO MEANS a gg card. ITs easy to deal with, and can be raced by competent players. Its also a dead card vs. a greater # of decks.

Kyle L.

[Liam-K]

I think a card that essentially reads "Remove your opponent from the game." is way, way too good not to play in combo.

Absolutely agreed.  This is the single reason I would play (smemmen-style) Grimlong over Pitchlong any day.  Why bother with 7 blue cards that don't do anything off a draw7 when you can cast a swarm on turn 1 and proceed to win turn 2?  It's completely incredible; you just auto-win.  And if they're boarding shit like Darkblast or Fire/Ice and digging for it to answer your turn 1 Swarm, they're not digging for Force for your turn 2 Necro/Bargain/Wheel.  I still don't understand why cutting Wheel, Regrowth, Duress, and Swarm is worth the random "Misdirect your Ancestral" play.

This makes no sense.

I crack jar and get FoW + Bomb.  gg.
You crack jar and get Xantid + Bomb.  have a counter? orly? pass.

Xantid is great in the opening grip, and sometimes in mutual topdeck mode.  The rest of the time you wish he did something now.  Force is occasionally bad in mutual topdeck mode (no other blue cards) but the rest of the time does the exact same thing as xantid: make it so your spells aren't countered.  It also, incidentally, has applications against shit like shop, trinisphere.

[ashiXIII]

I think a card that essentially reads "Remove your opponent from the game." is way, way too good not to play in combo.

Absolutely agreed.  This is the single reason I would play (smemmen-style) Grimlong over Pitchlong any day.  Why bother with 7 blue cards that don't do anything off a draw7 when you can cast a swarm on turn 1 and proceed to win turn 2?  It's completely incredible; you just auto-win.  And if they're boarding shit like Darkblast or Fire/Ice and digging for it to answer your turn 1 Swarm, they're not digging for Force for your turn 2 Necro/Bargain/Wheel.  I still don't understand why cutting Wheel, Regrowth, Duress, and Swarm is worth the random "Misdirect your Ancestral" play.

This makes no sense.

I crack jar and get FoW + Bomb.  gg.
You crack jar and get Xantid + Bomb.  have a counter? orly? pass.

Xantid is great in the opening grip, and sometimes in mutual topdeck mode.  The rest of the time you wish he did something now.  Force is occasionally bad in mutual topdeck mode (no other blue cards) but the rest of the time does the exact same thing as xantid: make it so your spells aren't countered.  It also, incidentally, has applications against shit like shop, trinisphere.

You can't compare Xantid to Force of Will. We are very specifically talking about sideboarded Xantid Swarms against Drain decks. Obviously you don't bring them in against Shops. Thanks for wasting time.

Anyway, Kyle, turn 1 Xantid IS good game against most of the control decks. If they have Force for it, then it was essentially Duress. (which is still really good) If they don't have Force, then you pretty much win on the spot. You have a completely unmolested 2 turns to win after that. I don't think your argument of "Well, Gifts can win turn 4 and CS can slaver you turn 3." is a good argument for multiple reasons. First off, you're still faster. Second off, your reasoning is basically "Well, this card isn't good against their nuts draws." which is not logic I would rely on when choosing a sideboard card. Lastly, it's the combination of those two things. So, for your reasoning to actually work, they A) need to get a nuts draw and B) you have to have a very, very slow hand.

[Whatever Works]

My more important point is that duress you can use imedietly... Swarm = Wait a turn... a turn matters alot imo.

[ashiXIII]

My more important point is that duress you can use imedietly... Swarm = Wait a turn... a turn matters alot imo.

You're right, a turn is eternity in Vintage. However, in this situation it only really matters if you have a first turn kill, or your opponent can go busted once you pass. A first turn kill can wait until turn 2 if it means not having protection or waiting until Xantid is active. In this situation, though, yes, Duress is better. Against Drains, though, I don't think their first turn busted is really an issue. Yes, it comes up, but can it really be worse than Tinker, Recall, Walk? Probably not.

[Smmenen]

xantid swarm is better becuase as long as you are still going to win before the control deck, then so what?

[ashiXIII]

xantid swarm is better becuase as long as you are still going to win before the control deck, then so what?

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make.

[Moxlotus]

I think a card that essentially reads "Remove your opponent from the game." is way, way too good not to play in combo.

Absolutely agreed.  This is the single reason I would play (smemmen-style) Grimlong over Pitchlong any day.  Why bother with 7 blue cards that don't do anything off a draw7 when you can cast a swarm on turn 1 and proceed to win turn 2?  It's completely incredible; you just auto-win.  And if they're boarding shit like Darkblast or Fire/Ice and digging for it to answer your turn 1 Swarm, they're not digging for Force for your turn 2 Necro/Bargain/Wheel.  I still don't understand why cutting Wheel, Regrowth, Duress, and Swarm is worth the random "Misdirect your Ancestral" play.

You're cutting Wheel, Regrowth, Duress, and Swarm for

unwastable lands
fetchlands for threshold
fetchland+Brainstorm
lands that don't kill you
Being able to play your protection for free and not wasting B on it.

How often do you have 1 black source, duress, and ritual in hand.  What do you play?  Your Duress so you can pass the turn?  Or the Ritual which if it gets countered you're SOL?  Duress+Draw7 ain't exactly a combo either, while MisD+FoW isn't bothered at all.  Don't forget that there are other decks in the format besides Drain.dec.  Duress pretty much blows against all of them, but FoW is good against everything.

These are reasons why FoW+MisD+2 colors are > 5 colors maindeck.

Sideboarded:

 Swarms are insane against Drains no doubt.  I'd say they are better than Duress against Drains.  I still see how you can fit all of them in though, and include stuff for the Stax match too.  I don't see sideboard space as a limitation at all for Pitch Long.

[Whatever Works]

I think Xantid Swarm is great too. That was not my arguement. My point is that if you run swarm in your sideboard you really shouldnt run duress. They both would come in against the same matchups accept perhaps the combo mirror, and If your worried about the combo mirror there are probably better options.

All I am saying is I wouldnt run both cards in the same board, because they similar, and i would want more answers to things like chalice for 1-2.

Kyle L

[Moxlotus]

I'm not seeing the space issue

2 green duals
3 swarms
3 duress
3 ESG/basics
3 bounce spells
1 extra slot for something.  I like Pentavus.

What problem does this generic sideboard not address?

[LordHomerCat]

I am also curious of the problem you have Kyle, I mean, what more are you trying to fit in your board?  You don't need like Ray of Revelation for Oath or crap like that, just relatively generic solutions (things like bounce spells, duress, maybe a massacre, maybe some big artifact dude) to really scary stuff.  Personally, the Xantid + Duress plan isn't a perfect fit, but I feel like I can afford to cut an extra bounce spell and move the second tendrils into the main to fit the extra two duress and be quite happy with my board.  Xantid is just so insane, and MDG is like my least favorite deck to play (other than the mirror), I would love to have free turn 1 wins against them by resolving swarm.

[Dakkon]

Swarm doesnt have haste. so it would be a free turn 2 win, unless they can tutor up hate for the swarm which is highly plausible.

[Moxlotus]

Swarm doesnt have haste. so it would be a free turn 2 win, unless they can tutor up hate for the swarm which is highly plausible.

If they are tutoring up hate for Swarm instead of a Force, I'm all for it.

[Komatteru]

Swarm doesnt have haste. so it would be a free turn 2 win, unless they can tutor up hate for the swarm which is highly plausible.

If they are tutoring up hate for Swarm instead of a Force, I'm all for it.

I will totally trade their tutor for my 0/1 idiot anyday of the week as well.

[Dakkon]

Swarm doesnt have haste. so it would be a free turn 2 win, unless they can tutor up hate for the swarm which is highly plausible.

If they are tutoring up hate for Swarm instead of a Force, I'm all for it.

I will totally trade their tutor for my 0/1 idiot anyday of the week as well.

I failed to realize that the control player would also have to cast the hate which would be difficult on turn 1/2 if tutored on the same turn. but this IS post board, so the drain deck will have answers sided in that will affect storm despite xantid in play. Like graveyard hate and duress (build dependant).

Either way it still comes down to playskill and luck.

And I dont see what better sb cards there could be than 3 swarms and 3 duress.

What do the opposers of this argument say should be in the side instead of duress or xantid?

[ashiXIII]

I don't think you're boarding in 3 Duress and 3 Xantid against Drain decks. You'd have to remove too much gas to do it. I feel the Forces/Mis-D's are better than Duress here, anyway. Duress is insane in the combo mirror, though, and that's where it'd come in.

[Moxlotus]

I don't think you're boarding in 3 Duress and 3 Xantid against Drain decks. You'd have to remove too much gas to do it. I feel the Forces/Mis-D's are better than Duress here, anyway. Duress is insane in the combo mirror, though, and that's where it'd come in.

You missed the point of the debate.  The point is since Duress and Xantid are similar, why waste sideboard space to include both of them when you can use that space for something else.  My point was space wasn't an issue in the first place.

[Mr. Type 4]

I think Xantid Swarm is great too. That was not my arguement. My point is that if you run swarm in your sideboard you really shouldnt run duress. They both would come in against the same matchups accept perhaps the combo mirror, and If your worried about the combo mirror there are probably better options.

All I am saying is I wouldnt run both cards in the same board, because they similar, and i would want more answers to things like chalice for 1-2.

Kyle L

Xantid and Duress are functionally similar in that they both serve as combo protection, but Duress actually serves as disruption. 

Duress - Good vs COMBO

Xantid - Good vs CONTROL

The real problem with both of those cards is that it's hard to board them in without lowering your blue card count and therefore making your FOW's not as good. 

Seriously though,is there really a better card for the absurdly random combo mirror?.  Becker had Brainfreeze, but I fear that you aren't playing the kind of deck that allows you to leave mana open in case you need to Brainfreeze. 

[Moxlotus]

We had Envelop.  It was pretty good.  Stopped Duress+every business spell minus necro and Bargain.  And most importantly, it was blue.  However, it doesn't protect your own stuff.

Seriously though,is there really a better card for the absurdly random combo mirror?.   

It is the most random match ever.  It is completely stupid.  I've almost gotten to the point that its not even worth boarding for since the cards you bring in matter so little.

[ErkBek]

We had Envelop.  It was pretty good.  Stopped Duress+every business spell minus necro and Bargain.  And most importantly, it was blue.  However, it doesn't protect your own stuff.

I like envelop over duress for the above reasons, as well as
 - BS in response to a duress often times negates your duress
 - Envelop can be played off an opponent's draw7 on their turn
 - Often times an opponet invest 1 or 2 rituals to play their threat which you efficiently counter for a U, netting you tempo and cards
 - Envelop cannot be Misdirected

With all this said, I lost 3 of 4 mirrors at Gencon, however I only had envelop for 2 of the matches (both of which I lost). Each match that I lost largely came down to my opponent drew the nuts and/or I drew the anti-nuts. Every single time I drew envelop, I'm fairly certain it was better than duress would have been. I highly recommend that people test this card. For reference I ran this SB

1 Trop
1 Bayou
3 Xantid
3 Envelop
2 Hurkyl's
1 Rebuild
2 ESG
1 Tendrils
1 Massacre

[Spartacus210]

The real problem with both of those cards is that it's hard to board them in without lowering your blue card count and therefore making your FOW's not as good. 

On that note, how would any of you go about bringing in the Xantid package against Gifts or CS?

Obviously, the first thing:
-1 Island
-1 Swamp

+1 Trop
+1 Bayou

Then what about the Xantids themselves? I've been doing something like:
-1 Windfall
-1 Cabal Ritual

And I'm never sure what the third card to cut is. I'm hesitant to side out another blue card, for fear of making MisD/FoW ineffective. Where would you go from here, anyone?

[Liam-K]

I think a card that essentially reads "Remove your opponent from the game." is way, way too good not to play in combo.

Absolutely agreed.  This is the single reason I would play (smemmen-style) Grimlong over Pitchlong any day.  Why bother with 7 blue cards that don't do anything off a draw7 when you can cast a swarm on turn 1 and proceed to win turn 2?  It's completely incredible; you just auto-win.  And if they're boarding shit like Darkblast or Fire/Ice and digging for it to answer your turn 1 Swarm, they're not digging for Force for your turn 2 Necro/Bargain/Wheel.  I still don't understand why cutting Wheel, Regrowth, Duress, and Swarm is worth the random "Misdirect your Ancestral" play.

This makes no sense.

I crack jar and get FoW + Bomb.  gg.
You crack jar and get Xantid + Bomb.  have a counter? orly? pass.

Xantid is great in the opening grip, and sometimes in mutual topdeck mode.  The rest of the time you wish he did something now.  Force is occasionally bad in mutual topdeck mode (no other blue cards) but the rest of the time does the exact same thing as xantid: make it so your spells aren't countered.  It also, incidentally, has applications against shit like shop, trinisphere.

You can't compare Xantid to Force of Will. We are very specifically talking about sideboarded Xantid Swarms against Drain decks. Obviously you don't bring them in against Shops. Thanks for wasting time.

Did you miss the part I bolded specifically so you wouldn't miss it?  The part where it talks about xantid being better than force of will OFF A DRAW7?  Please don't condescend me with the implication that I don't know how to play, especially when you have to blame a comparison I was attacking on me to do it.  You're not being helpful.  (edit: I concede my shop, 3ball example was poorly chosen.  Would you prefer Chalice?  Duress?  Tinker?)

Since apparently I wasn't clear the first time, my point is specifically that xantid and force operate differently.  The reason I prefer force is it happens now.  In case you thought I was a bandwagon jumper of some sort, I'd been testing smmenen's grimlong list before pitch long was revealed, primarily against control.  If you care to look you will find me asking Steve why he sides out all of his Duress against control in his GrimLong post, for the same reason.  I consistantly felt hamstrung by the fact that xantid is slow as balls.

And (this is addressing practically everyone) please stop pretending that no other decks can do things when they get turns.  Yes, you are faster and yes, you can reliably race someone without trying for reckless speed and yes, your stream of threats makes it difficult to devote resources to anything that isn't stopping you.  But giving someone more turns than you have to still makes it easier for them to win (or not lose, depending on how they choose to fight you).

[ashiXIII]

I don't think you're boarding in 3 Duress and 3 Xantid against Drain decks. You'd have to remove too much gas to do it. I feel the Forces/Mis-D's are better than Duress here, anyway. Duress is insane in the combo mirror, though, and that's where it'd come in.

You missed the point of the debate.  The point is since Duress and Xantid are similar, why waste sideboard space to include both of them when you can use that space for something else.  My point was space wasn't an issue in the first place.

I was referring specifically to the post above mine.

I think a card that essentially reads "Remove your opponent from the game." is way, way too good not to play in combo.

Absolutely agreed.  This is the single reason I would play (smemmen-style) Grimlong over Pitchlong any day.  Why bother with 7 blue cards that don't do anything off a draw7 when you can cast a swarm on turn 1 and proceed to win turn 2?  It's completely incredible; you just auto-win.  And if they're boarding shit like Darkblast or Fire/Ice and digging for it to answer your turn 1 Swarm, they're not digging for Force for your turn 2 Necro/Bargain/Wheel.  I still don't understand why cutting Wheel, Regrowth, Duress, and Swarm is worth the random "Misdirect your Ancestral" play.

This makes no sense.

I crack jar and get FoW + Bomb.  gg.
You crack jar and get Xantid + Bomb.  have a counter? orly? pass.

Xantid is great in the opening grip, and sometimes in mutual topdeck mode.  The rest of the time you wish he did something now.  Force is occasionally bad in mutual topdeck mode (no other blue cards) but the rest of the time does the exact same thing as xantid: make it so your spells aren't countered.  It also, incidentally, has applications against shit like shop, trinisphere.

You can't compare Xantid to Force of Will. We are very specifically talking about sideboarded Xantid Swarms against Drain decks. Obviously you don't bring them in against Shops. Thanks for wasting time.

Did you miss the part I bolded specifically so you wouldn't miss it?  The part where it talks about xantid being better than force of will OFF A DRAW7?  Please don't condescend me with the implication that I don't know how to play, especially when you have to blame a comparison I was attacking on me to do it.  You're not being helpful.  (edit: I concede my shop, 3ball example was poorly chosen.  Would you prefer Chalice?  Duress?  Tinker?)

Since apparently I wasn't clear the first time, my point is specifically that xantid and force operate differently.  The reason I prefer force is it happens now.  In case you thought I was a bandwagon jumper of some sort, I'd been testing smmenen's grimlong list before pitch long was revealed, primarily against control.  If you care to look you will find me asking Steve why he sides out all of his Duress against control in his GrimLong post, for the same reason.  I consistantly felt hamstrung by the fact that xantid is slow as balls.

And (this is addressing practically everyone) please stop pretending that no other decks can do things when they get turns.  Yes, you are faster and yes, you can reliably race someone without trying for reckless speed and yes, your stream of threats makes it difficult to devote resources to anything that isn't stopping you.  But giving someone more turns than you have to still makes it easier for them to win (or not lose, depending on how they choose to fight you).

I apologize for being condescending. It was just that your example didn't match the topic of conversation. I still feel that there is no card as strong against Drains as Xantid Swarm. I also agree that it serves a completely different role than Force of Will.

[darkchild]

The real problem with both of those cards is that it's hard to board them in without lowering your blue card count and therefore making your FOW's not as good.

On that note, how would any of you go about bringing in the Xantid package against Gifts or CS?

Obviously, the first thing:
-1 Island
-1 Swamp

+1 Trop
+1 Bayou

Then what about the Xantids themselves? I've been doing something like:
-1 Windfall
-1 Cabal Ritual

And I'm never sure what the third card to cut is. I'm hesitant to side out another blue card, for fear of making MisD/FoW ineffective. Where would you go from here, anyone?

I think cutting either the Hurkyl's or rebuild, depending on which you are playing for the 3rd swarm is fine. You still have chain to bounce their colossus in an event that you need a bounce. However, if CS boards in SoR then, you will be in deep trouble. Nonetheless, that is probably what I will board out.

[Dominik]

What would you usually take out/add in for the stax matchup?

Let's assume a SB of this type:

1  DSC
1  Massacre
3  Xantid Swarm
1  Tropical Island
1  Swamp
1  Island
3  Duress
2  Hurkyl's Recall
1  Chain of Vapor
1  Rebuild

You'd probably want to add in:
1  DSC
1  Swamp
1  Island
2  Hurkyl's Recall
1  Chain of Vapor
1  Rebuild

But what do you take out? Disadvantage tutors?

[Whatever Works]

I dont like running both duress & Swarm in the board, because it makes me feel like I have a transformational board that turns the deck into grimlong. Then in my mind the question then becomes why not just play grimlong?

I find that in the spots I save from not running both Swarm & Duress I am given the option to run more hate cards vs. matchups that I actually care about.

SWARM prevents your opponents from playing spells on your turn. WHO CARES... I am not afraid of ANYTHING my opponent can play on my turn... Unless he has 2-3 counters I probably will win through it, and if he has that many... then I depleted his hand...

Swarm does not stop what scares me... What scares me? Pyrostatic Piller, Arcane Lab, CoTV @1, Duress targetting me after I pass turn w/sworm in play, Tormod's Crypt (primarily as a nuisence & slows me down about a turn or 2), my opponent winning on there turn...

Swarm makes my already very good control matchup a little easier... However, it really doesnt help me much postboard to what I expect them to bring in.

In the extra 3-4 slots I have I run a more wide variety of bounce & removal... This helps my poorer matchups like Stax, good fish lists, etc... Also, its very usful vs. everything postboard.

Swarm is good, but I rarely find it neccessary. Duress I find much more neccessary because unlike control... Combo mirrors can be a harder matchup, and a more random matchup, and duress provides extremely usful information on how to play my cards.

Kyle L.

[darkchild]

What would you usually take out/add in for the stax matchup?

Let's assume a SB of this type:

1 DSC
1 Massacre
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Duress
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild

You'd probably want to add in:
1 DSC
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild

But what do you take out? Disadvantage tutors?

I think my changes would be:

+1 DSC -1 Tendril of agony (assumption that you play 2 and its normal stax not uba stax) If they cap you, 1 or 2 probably does not matter
+1 Swamp - 1 Cabal Ritual
+1 Island - 1 Lion's eye diamond (If you know they have chalice)
+2 Hurkyl's Recall - 2 Misdirections
+1 Chain of Vapor - 1 Windfall
+1 Rebuild - 1 Either mystical or imperial seal

That is probably what I do, can any of the better pitch long comment if I am sidebording correctly, thanks!

[Tin_Mox5831]

I dont like running both duress & Swarm in the board, because it makes me feel like I have a transformational board that turns the deck into grimlong. Then in my mind the question then becomes why not just play grimlong?

I actually did the exact opposite at the Lakewood Mox tourney this Saturday, playing a very generic Grim Long list MD, then having the ability to board into any combination of the blue pitch spells when I felt I needed to. My extremely fuzzy logic is as follows: I only expected a couple of Stax players (Mainly Nam and Mark), so I figured the Fetchland vs. Rainbow Land debate was fairly moot here. Second, I want to maximize my chances of winning game 1. For this reason, I ran the most concentrated list I could in the MD. Basic Grim Long (- 1 Duress, +1 Cabal Ritual, meta decision) Then, once my opponent is confident I don't have Misdirections, FoW, whatever, they come in for game 2. This gives me a clear advantage in that game due to the impact of those cards. Finally, if a game 3 is needed, I go back to the most potent list I can, giving me the absolute best chance of winning on turns 1 or 2. It may be an absolutely awful decision on my part, but I had a winning record on the day and didn't miss the T8 by all that much. C'est la vie.

Peace,
Dave

[Moxlotus]

Each of us has our own preference on how to board against Stax, but this is mine  (maindeck 2 MisD, 2 Tendrils, 0 Chalice, 3 sea, 6 fetch)

+1 Pentavus
+2/3 ESG/land
+3/4 bounce

-1 Tendrils
-2 MisD
-1 Imp
-1 vamp
-1 desire
(-1 bargain or Grim)

I like Bus over DSC since it completely taps Stax and SS instead of getting Welded or bounced, but that's just a personal preference.  The important thing is to keep the Blue card count high enough.  This way it will still be around 18.  If you have the extra mana and bounce, I'd take out Bargain and/or Desire.  Now that is way out of the norm and many will probably disagree with me.  The reasoning is those spells cost 6.  There are 2 ways to beat Stax usually--win turn 1 or whack off until you bounce their shit and do a ritual/tutor kill.  Winning turn 1 happens about 15-20% of the time in my experience, so I'll focus on the other one.  Desire is obviously harder to cast than Bargain.  Plus, you are boarding in non business spells and taking out some, making Desire less appealing.  Jar is also an option to board out since you have a guy who if Tinkered will usually win no matter what lock components they have out.

[verduran]

Could Daze possibly fulfill the same role Misdirection does? When you're on the play I could see it being the better card; freeing up an entire (blue business) card in your hand (which you won't have to pitch) would lead to a higher probability of a first turn kill. A large part of the business card in this deck are non blue though, and when your opponent has got mana Daze gets kind of silly. It also forces you to fetch U-Sea every time and the returning the land part would hurt you trying to go off on later turns. I was just wandering if it was ever considered. (If daze would get popular in first turn kill decks, I imagine so would ESG.  :lol:)