Optimizing Tezzeret

[Eastman]

I don't see how intuition / AK is going to win you the game. It's just too mana intensive and slow. You'll run into more relics/crypts/extirpates than you would care to see. If you're going to be so dependant on your graveyard, you might as well play ichorid

I also run Intuition/AK in my Tezz list.  I think, honestly, it's a question of likely matchups.  Int/AK give you a pretty considerable advantage in the mirror IMO.  I will concede however that it is slower and more mana intensive than TFK.

I think the second point, that graveyard hate will neuter the int/ak engine, is just way overblown.  Obviously the gy dependence is nowhere near ichorid levels.  But in general, having played a LOT with intuition/AK, both in current tezz lists and going back in the day to Hulk, graveyard hate is just not a serious issue.  If your opponent wants to blow cards shutting down your GY in order to reduce the effectiveness of your draw engine, that's fine.  Usually you can play around it pretty effectively.

Let me go through the math.  Imagine your opponent has a Tormod's Crypt, they play it.  You have intuition, go for 3 AKs, and cast one, so they pop in response.  They're now -1 cards, and you're dead even, -0.  That's net 1 card advantage for you.  Better yet, their crypt isn't around to mess up your Yawgmoth's Will anymore.  Granted you might have rather had TFK in that spot, but it's not like your entire deck is neutered by the GY hate (as Ichorid is), you can still cantrip the AKs.
 
There are other advantages to Intuition as well.  Both GI and I use a maindeck Ancient Grudge, with more in the  board.  That's a total house in certain situations.  Best of all, when you have either Voltaic or Time Vault on the table, you can intuition for Demonic/Vamp/Tinker and just win right away, which is much better than seeing 3 cards with TFK.

This debate has obviously been hashed to death, and like I said, I'll concede that it is something of a tradeoff situation.  Steve and I make our money in Drain mirrors, and I think Int/AK shines there.  But I really have to object to any contention that the engine has a severe weakness from graveyard hate. 

[InfectedMushroom]

I must agree that i love the Intuition/AK engine. The sheer card advantage it can net just wins games on it's own. As was stated, Intuition can also fetch you 3 tutors EOT which can win you the game. It might be a bit slower, but if you Drain something for 2 or 3 mana early and use it for Int/AK, it can really spell game over. Most top 8's all have a couple Drain based decks in them, and this engine can just perform better in my opinion.

[Negator13]

Let me go through the math.  Imagine your opponent has a Tormod's Crypt, they play it.  You have intuition, go for 3 AKs, and cast one, so they pop in response.  They're now -1 cards, and you're dead even, -0.  That's net 1 card advantage for you.  Better yet, their crypt isn't around to mess up your Yawgmoth's Will anymore.  Granted you might have rather had TFK in that spot, but it's not like your entire deck is neutered by the GY hate (as Ichorid is), you can still cantrip the AKs.
 

I don't think the breaking-even on CA here is the issue here moreso than the huge loss of tempo (five mana to zero). While you're spending two turns drawing 1 card, they're doing whatever they want (casting other draw spells) while only investing 0 mana and 1 card to basically annul your relative progress.

[zeus-online]

The only issue i have with intu/AK is that it will require atleast 7 slots...And probably more as i'm quite fond of playing a number of deep analysis's to go along the AK's.

I had a psychatog deck before i opted for tez....and i won nearly every control mirror on the power of intuition...The draw engine was so much more powerfull then any other when it got started...Also the 3 DA's i played won me several games.

I think i'd cut the Tez if i where to play with intu/AK.

I've considered cutting the tez already, since it's a card i rarely play. With intu/AK i might just go for psychatog as an alt. win condition....Tarmogoyf could also be an option...It's way better against aggro-control then any other win condition imo.

/Zeus

[Bongo]

Int/AK give you a pretty considerable advantage in the mirror IMO.

The big problem with IntuAK is that you only have the advantage G1, because most players side in Extirpate, shutting down your whole draw engine post-board.
There is also the problem that you cant use IntuAK effectively to dig for counters during an eot fight since it is so mana-intensive.

[LordHomerCat]

Int/AK give you a pretty considerable advantage in the mirror IMO.

The big problem with IntuAK is that you only have the advantage G1, because most players side in Extirpate, shutting down your whole draw engine post-board.
There is also the problem that you cant use IntuAK effectively to dig for counters during an eot fight since it is so mana-intensive.

I haven't seen a good player running an extirpate in their board in... well, ever?  That card is awful.

I don't like Intuition AK but you're not gonna convince anyone either way, it's a preference thing.

I play green because Goyf is my best sideboard card.  He is pretty much Tinker for 1G against shops and fish and lets you ignore crap like null rod and pithing needle and ancient grudge and krosan grip etc. etc. and just kill people.  That and KGrip (for Oath) are why I like green, it helps in my hard matchups vs. Red which doesn't do anything against the tough ones.  Also, you obviously don't play him main and Personal Tutor is so unreal terrible I don't know how you can discuss it.  I don't even like playing both Vamp and Mystical and Imp Seal isn't even close to my list of cards to consider, so Personal Tutor isn't even a real card to me.

Inkwell is probably alright but I draw a ton of cards in Tez and I don't like how you can't put him back.  When you discard him to thirst, you just turn off Tinker, and most of my wins are just Tinker-DSC so I'm willing to take the chance of him getting bounced versus constantly having a dead tinker in my deck.  Also, DSC is sometimes good enough to beat Dredge if you turn 1 him, Inkwell will never be.

As mentioned, Crypt vs. Intu-AK does put you down a card, but it also gives you basically 5 mana to do whatever you want (like, cast a Thirst for Knowledge or something) and more than make up for that card disadvantage.  Also, if I play tormod's Crypt, I not only stop your Intu from being very good, I also pretty much destroy your draw engine.  Where you now have crappy intuitions to 1-for-1, I still have my Thirsts and whatever other 3 or so cards replace it (Duress maybe) which are all live cards.  That's something I don't like about Intu-AK.  Shuffling DSC back is relevant a fair amount too with only 1 Brainstorm left.

Jotun Grunt is on the same level as Personal Tutor.  Maybe you can play him in Fish where you have other dudes, in this deck he could not be more useless.

[Bongo]

I haven't seen a good player running an extirpate in their board in... well, ever?  That card is awful.

That's a pretty bold statement, and an insulting one at that. Could you please elaborate why you think Extirpate is awful?
I've won quite a few mirrors because of Extirpate nuking Thirst/Drain/Force and giving me valuable information on how to plan my future turns. It's also really good with Duress effects.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

DSC ignores all the cards you listed also and the only advantage I see in goyf is that against fish and shops it is another big permanent. I agree with you that if I were running green I would SIDEBOARD goyf but as far as maindeck material goes I would vastly prefer Personal Tutor and I agree as you put it that the card is "unreal terrible".

[Grand Inquisitor]

Could you please elaborate why you think Extirpate is awful?

As someone who's been on both sides of it, extirpate is certainly powerful, but its problem is that it's so narrow.

Where I've liked it is as a Cunning Wish target.  It stays in the SB against just about everything except ichorid.  It's a surprise against slaver, it does do nasty things to AK, and in certain midgame situations of the combo-control mirror it can be backbreaking.

Where I haven't liked it is when it forces you to wait til after a big counter-war to hit something decent, when you whiff on a big card like Drain, TFK, etc, or when it's the last card in your hand and something like duress or REB would have been strictly better.  Also, the information gained from seeing their hand is mostly useful if you're able to go on the offensive.  We're seeing one of the more controllish metagames in sometime.

[Eastman]

I think i'd cut the Tez if i where to play with intu/AK.

I've considered cutting the tez already, since it's a card i rarely play. With intu/AK i might just go for psychatog as an alt. win condition....Tarmogoyf could also be an option...It's way better against aggro-control then any other win condition imo.

/Zeus

Funny you should mention that.  My current Tezz list is 1 tezz and supplements with tog as the alternate win.    I think Tog > Tarmogoyf against aggro control, as Tog can kill their Tarmogoyfs.  When you're drawing as many cards as a deck this blue is drawing, he's just usually a bigger guy. 

[Wollblad]

It seem that the discussion about the draw engine can go on for ever, so I would like to bring up another topic relevant to Tezzeret decks: removal.

There are so many things that just kills the combo: creatures kill Tezzeret, Null Rod and Pithing Needle disrupts Time Vault, Gorilla Shaman eats time vault, Goblin Welder shifts out your combo pieces, Engineered Explosives blow them away and so on and so forth. Unless the deck is extremely fast, I see a need for removal. So there are two relevant questions:
1) Should the deck be combo style and just regard all of the above threats as speed bumps or should it be conrollish and remove possible threats
2) If the deck should use removal, what removal is appropriate?

My oppinion is that there is a need for removal, but I don't have any really good option on point two. Putrefy could be one option if you include green. It removes creatures and artifacts at instant speed, and all of the above mentioned threats are creatures or artifacts. It does however cost three mana and requires two off-color mana. If you inlcude read, there is no single card that for a reasonable cost removes both artifacts and creatures. Engineered Explosives is nice but a bit expensive and falls short to Null Rod. Then of course, we also have the more drastic measure in Pernicious Deed which however also sweeps away Time Vault and Key if any of them are on the board.

What are your thoughts on this subject?

[reaperbong]

I don't use removal as I think bounce should be more then sufficient. I run 1x Echoing Truth and 1x Hurkyl's Recall + 1x each in the sideboard usually. At least these two spells in the maindeck are auto-includes IMO.

2-4 Bounce spells + 3-4 Duress effects + ~ 8x Counterspells and you have a good chance to eliminate the threat altogether in case 1 turn without the permanant in play isn't enough. It should be enough of course if you time the bounce spell correctly.

[Diakonov]

In testing with Eastman and GI, we have used Ancient Grudge to yield some positive results.  I know that it doesn't answer the creature problem, but they seem to be less common than artifact disruption (except for dudes attacking Tezz).  Worse comes to worse, as reaper mentioned, bounce+counter is pretty effective.  You could try a Cunning Wish package, that way it is still of some use if you aren't facing down disruption.

[Grand Inquisitor]

In testing with Eastman and GI...

Actually, this wasn't just a testing thing.  When I went on a roll last fall winning or placing in a few events in a row, I'd attribute the majority of the success to intuition on the one hand and ancient grudge on the other.  Obviously grudge is aided by intuition, but even as a stand along, it was the perfect 'answer' card for that metagame.  Depending how your metagame has evolved, this may or may not be the case.  Around here, vault/key, null rod and workshops are still rampant.

I originally really liked engineered explosives as well and would run most configurations with:

1x ancient grudge
1x echoing truth
1x engineered explosives

as the non- counter/duress control suite.  Now there's so much null rod that explosives is not useful.  Also, a big reason I had for running explosives was to get rid of mana crypt while comboing with tezzeret.  As I no longer run tezzeret, this isn't a line of play I need.

[Little Joe]

Hey guys, i'm running this right now:

// Lands
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Tolarian Academy
    3 Flooded Strand
    3 Island
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
    1 Ponder
    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Skeletal Scrying
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Fact or Fiction
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Time Vault
    4 Force of Will
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Thirst for Knowledge
    4 Mana Drain
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Tinker
    4 Duress
    1 Misdirection
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Propaganda
SB: 3 Annul
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall

If you guys could change anything about it, what would it be? Stax blows me out right now as i'm not sure how to board against it, or what to board.

Thanks

[Bera]

It seem that the discussion about the draw engine can go on for ever, so I would like to bring up another topic relevant to Tezzeret decks: removal.

There are so many things that just kills the combo: creatures kill Tezzeret, Null Rod and Pithing Needle disrupts Time Vault, Gorilla Shaman eats time vault, Goblin Welder shifts out your combo pieces, Engineered Explosives blow them away and so on and so forth. Unless the deck is extremely fast, I see a need for removal. So there are two relevant questions:
1) Should the deck be combo style and just regard all of the above threats as speed bumps or should it be conrollish and remove possible threats
2) If the deck should use removal, what removal is appropriate?

My oppinion is that there is a need for removal, but I don't have any really good option on point two. Putrefy could be one option if you include green. It removes creatures and artifacts at instant speed, and all of the above mentioned threats are creatures or artifacts. It does however cost three mana and requires two off-color mana. If you inlcude read, there is no single card that for a reasonable cost removes both artifacts and creatures. Engineered Explosives is nice but a bit expensive and falls short to Null Rod. Then of course, we also have the more drastic measure in Pernicious Deed which however also sweeps away Time Vault and Key if any of them are on the board.

What are your thoughts on this subject?

If you want to run removal, I'd splash red. You get Rack and Ruin, Fire/ice, Pyroclasm, Gorilla Shaman, Welder tech and elemental blasts if you want to.

I run a BUG list with Trinket Mages a singleton Tez and a draw engine consisting of AK/Intuition TFK and Recall. I sideboard 2 Volcanic Island 2 Rack and Ruin 1 Fire/Ice and 1 Pyroclasm
I also maindeck a pithing needle to get with trinket mage for welder/shaman/crypt/random annoying stuff

I think removal is necessary too. Unless you get awesome turn 1-2 mana drains with force back up every game, or turn 1-2 tez mana plus tez with force back up consistently.

[Caron]

Hi guys,
...
i woonder why you don't use the:
2 x transmute artifact
2 x voltaic key
1 x tezzeret

version of tezzeret...
it's so faster and strong than your lists...
wichever eblue engine you use..

..meditate.

CARONDIMONIO

[reaperbong]

Currently i'm struggling to find a place for Transmute Artifact. What is typically being cut from these lists to make space?

Call me crazy but i'd rather have 2x Tezzeret then 2x Voltaic Key. It pitches to FoW, Tutors, and is an awesome sink for Mana Drain/Crypt/Vault/Sol Ring.

[Caron]

..ok...
...try this...
..and see...

darksteel's colossus   1
mox ruby   1
mox jet   1
mox pearl   1
mox sapphire   1
mox emerald   1
black lotus   1
sol ring   1
mana crypt   1
lutus petal   1
mana vault   1
time vault   1
voltaic key   2
sensei's divining top   1
force of will   4
mana drain   4
echoing truth   1
ponder   1
brainstorm   1
gift ungiven   1
ancestral recall   1
mystical tutor   1
thirst for knowledge   4
Tezzeret the seeker   1
transmute artifact   2
merchant scroll   1
time walk   1
tinker     1
vampiric tutor   1
demonic tutor   1
duress   3
yawgmoth's will   1
thoughtseize   1
   
library of alexandria   1
tolarian academy   1
underground sea   4
   
island   3
polluted delta   4
flooded strand   2


CARONDIMONIO

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

..ok...
...try this...
..and see...

darksteel's colossus   1
mox ruby   1
mox jet   1
mox pearl   1
mox sapphire   1
mox emerald   1
black lotus   1
sol ring   1
mana crypt   1
lutus petal   1
mana vault   1
time vault   1
voltaic key   2
sensei's divining top   1
force of will   4
mana drain   4
echoing truth   1
ponder   1
brainstorm   1
gift ungiven   1
ancestral recall   1
mystical tutor   1
thirst for knowledge   4
Tezzeret the seeker   1
transmute artifact   2
merchant scroll   1
time walk   1
tinker     1
vampiric tutor   1
demonic tutor   1
duress   3
yawgmoth's will   1
thoughtseize   1
   
library of alexandria   1
tolarian academy   1
underground sea   4
   
island   3
polluted delta   4
flooded strand   2


CARONDIMONIO

I've seen a similar list top 8 five or six events in a row. its the 4th place list here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37261.0
intuition was always a huge bomb

[Caron]

yes,
you are right... it's a very nice list anyway.. i'm playing it now..

i've been playing Intu-AK for ages... but it has a "tempo" which i think is now too slow to be a tier 1 deck.. and it suffers the cemetery removals (tormod, progenitus, extirpate etc.) and the mirrors (AK vs AK).  I love intu-ak. but often before you manage to gain the card advantage with intu-ak engine.. you are already under lock or dead...
so.. using the "i win botton" voltaic key (straight or via tutors, tinker, transmute A. etc.) of the list i've posted you manage to have a faster in-game approach, at least nearly as fast as ad nauseam, pitch long or tps finishers.

This is only my opinion, and of course it mainly depends on the metagame you find in a tournment... but i really see that intu-ak is a too slow engine compared to thirsts, confidant etc.

We could maybe try a tezzeret deck based on a mystic remoras+confidant engine... me and my friends are thinking about this.. with all 1 or 2 mana spells and artifacts in it... but still we did not fine a solution as good as the one i've posted...

... CARONDIMONIO


 

[Blovdek]

UB Tezz

Main:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Duress
1 Misdirection
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tezzeret, The Seeker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Tormodys Crypt
1 Voltaic Key
1 Darksteel Collossus
1 Time Vault
1 Sensei's divining Top
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexiandria
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Snow Covered Island
3 Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trinket Mage
3 Sower of Temptation
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Tormodys Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

What do you guys think? Sideboard is quite tricky as it has transformational abilities. If you wanna know how would i sideboard the certain matchups feel free to ask...

Blovdek

[Caron]

Blovdek, your chioice is very nice, i've played a very similar one...
and it's great with second trinket-confidant engine...
now i'm trying this sideboard:

energy flux   2
rebuild   1
pithing needle   2
jester's cap   1
masticore   2
platinum Angel   1
tormod's crypt   1
jilixid   4
the abyss   1

i had to use this side because it's "I WIN" if you play against ichorid (8 bombs on it) which is quite common here, and it's also grat versus fish (abyss+2 masticore).
moreover it gives you advantage on Staker's egines (fluxes/rebuild) and it helps a bit against mirror combo matches (jester+crypt)....

Your side is much more technical, basically i like it more.. but the one i use it's more suitable to the metagame i find here (Italy).

...CARONDIMONIO

[Neonico]

Here is the Transmute Artefact/Trinket mage list i played alot lately, its the list i love playing the most and which seems to be really competitive :
4 force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 thirst for Knowledge
2 Trinket Mage
1 brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Transmute artefact
1 Tinker
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yaugmoth’s Will
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize (duress and thoughtseize are my 2 changing slots, I love having Echoing Thruth and tormod’s Crypt maindeck, because of Ichorid starting to be played again a lot in Europe)
5 Moxen
1 black Lotus
1 mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Seat of Synod
1 Library of Alexandria (can be strip mine, metagame dependant)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
5 island

Points i'd like to speack of :

Why anything else than straight UB versions of the deck ? I mean, G and R give some really nice options for the sideboard but i dont see any of those options that can't be adressed in UB, except tarmogoyf.
 You got : Duress/Thoughtseize for control and combo matchups, Hurkyl's recall and Energy flux for Shop matchup, tormod's needle and relic of progenitus for ichorid mathup, infest for goelins and Fish (possibly razormane masticore too) etc.....
I dont get the point of the /r or /g splashes

The robot choice : I think that it's important to have the fastest clock G1 and having a robot adressing some other matchups in sideboard, for one good reason : It's a backup plan, and it have to be as efficient as possible.

[Caron]

.. i agree...
you don't need red or green splashed in this deck..
..blue and black can give you answers to everything...
they say you need regrowth to close with gift.. but it's nonsense one color for one card.. moreover i often side gift away in game 2 and 3.. so..
it's the same mistake i did playing recouop as a single red card in old etw gift decks... 95% of the time usless and slow.. moreover your mana get's weaker with 3 colors... (waste/strip/null rod will lock you hard)

...usless also to have G or R only for sideboard.. even if R and G have great sideboard bombs... you can find good blue/black/artifact solution to everything...
... your list is very nice too, 2 trinket are a very efficient choice also...

... CARONDIMONIO

[Neonico]

Even regrowth can be replaced by a blue cardifyou wantto optimizeyour gifts : Relearn.
And Trinket and transmute artefact are both my 2 cards to optimize my gifts ungiven piles in the deck.

[mutedequilibrium]

My list, then some discussion:


1  Tolarian Academy
2  Flooded Strand
4  Polluted Delta
2  Island
1  Snow-Covered Island
1  Swamp
2  Underground Sea
2  Tropical Island

1  Darksteel Colossus
1  Trinket Mage
2  Tezzeret the Seeker

1  Black Lotus
1  Mana Crypt
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Ruby
1  Sensei's Divining Top
1  Pithing Needle
1  Sol Ring
1  Voltaic Key
1  Time Vault
1  Vampiric Tutor
1  Demonic Tutor
2  Night's Whisper
1  Yawgmoth's Will
1  Ancestral Recall
1  Brainstorm
1  Echoing Truth
1  Hurkyl's Recall
1  Merchant Scroll
3  Negate
1  Time Walk
4  Mana Drain
3  Thirst for Knowledge
1  Tinker
1  Gifts Ungiven
4  Force of Will
1  Misdirection
1  Regrowth

SB:

2  Tormod's Crypt
1  Relic of Progenitus
3  Duress
2  Yixlid Jailer
3  Krosan Grip
2  Threads of Disloyalty
1  Inkwell Leviathan
1  Ensnaring Bridge

Most of the Tezzeret talk revolves around restrictions and unrestrictions, but not around the deck itself.
I'd like to have a discussion about card choices, color splashes and sideboard strategies, no B&R stuff please.

1. What splash colours do you use in you Tezzeret build? Green? Red? White? All of them?

2. What's the reason you chose your particular colour configuration? What advantages do you see over other configurations?

3. What's your sideboard?

4. What's your SB plan? What cards were you happy with, what cards are you going to replace? Basically any in-depth information about the SB would be appreciated.

5. If you have unusual choices (IntuAK, Welder main, etc) that distinguishes your deck from the "composite Tezzeret list", why did you run those cards? How did they perform?

1. Green.

2. Red wasn't doing enough. The extra artifact destroyed with Rack & Ruin is gladly sacrificed for the uncounterability of Krosan Grip. Blasts don't help me with any of my bad matchups, but makes my already good or favourable matchups better. The same is said for Gorilla Shaman [though I have an extreme love affair with that ape]. The only truly unique card I give up in Red is Fire/Ice.

White is also not enough. The playable benefits from White I see are Canonist and Mindcensor. Seal of Cleansing has a green cousin that's just as good. While Mindcensor seems amazing right now, I don't think the weaknesses of the deck are made better by either of these cards.

The best cards Green has to offer that I can see are Krosan Grip, Seal of Primordium, Oxidize, Goyf, Trygon Predator, and Regrowth. Deed is a stretch, but it seems every 2003 Tog Player and their mom is trying to make 2009 Tezzeret look exactly like it..

3. Current SB is:

2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Duress
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Krosan Grip

4. SB Plan is, as follows:

Stax:
-1 Darksteel Colossus, +1 Inkwell Leviathan, -1 Misdirection/-1 Regrowth/-1 Etc, +X Krosan Grip
~This matchup is already quite favourable. Leviathan is un-Weldable and often game-winning. Same said of Tezzeret.

Ichorid:
-4 Mana Drain, -1 Misdirection, +2 Crypts, +1 Relic, +1 Jailer
~These should be obvious. Mana Drain is notoriously awful vs Ichorid. I keep in Whispers in the hopes of drawing a Crypt or Relic to buy time. This matchup is a true race.

Painter:
-1 Darksteel Colossus, +1 Inkwell Leviathan, -3 Negate, -1 Pithing Needle, -1 Hurkyl's Recall, +5 Krosan Grip/Duress
~Taking out Negate is a hard choice, as several counters are often enough to overpower them with card advantage. The drawbacks is that REB still counters for 1 less, and Painter is a creature. I think Duress can replace these, easily. Krosan Grip is pure gold, here.

Oath [Overlord/Akroma builds]:
-2 Night's Whisper, -1 Regrowth, -1 Pithing Needle, -1 Trinket Mage, -1 Hurkyl's Recall, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Threads of Disloyalty
~A much easier build to deal with than Tyrant Oath, though still a tough one. If Krosan Grip can get online, we're in good shape. Threads on Akroma is obviously the most optimal. If they board into the Empyrial Archangel plan, we gun it for Bridge and/or Grip.

TPS:
-1 Darksteel Colossus, +1 Inkwell Leviathan, -1 Hurkyl's Recall, -1 Pithing Needle, -2 Night's Whisper, -1 Tezzeret, +3 Duress, +2 Tormod's Crypt
~Post board, our disruption suite looks like: 4 FoW, 4 Drain, 3 Negate, 3 Duress, 2 Crypt, which is quite good. I've considered taking Thirsts out for Whispers, as well. It's not uncommon to have 4 mana sources out with Negate in hand, where Whisper is much better than TFK. Still testing this out.

Fish:
-1 Darksteel Colossus, +1 Inkwell Leviathan, -3 Negate, -1 Tezzeret, -1 Hurkyl's Recall, -1 Regrowth, -1 Thirst for Knowledge, 2 or 3 Duress, 2 or 3 Krosan Grip, 2 Threads of Disloyalty
~Pretty much if Tinker resolves, it's 95% likely that it's game. To accomplish this, we bring in Duress. The basic Swamp in the main no longer opens you up to Wasteland, which ends up making a huge difference. Whisper is great. Grip for Null Rod is great.

Mirror:
-1 Darksteel Colossus, +1 Inkwell Leviathan, +6 Duress/Grip, -6 XYZ
~Play style truly determines the boarding config in this matchup. Night's Whisper is really, really good in this matchup, as well as Negate. Those always stay in. Regrowth, while situationally good, can probably go in place of another Grip or Duress.

5. Night's Whisper, Negate, and Regrowth are my personal touches.

Negate - Could have been Leak, especially since Fish is one of my hardest matchups. However, it ends up making other matchups worse as the game progresses. This can be exceptionally bad vs Stax or Combo.

Night's Whisper - In discussing the other possible draw engines for the deck, I seriously considered Intuition/AK. Once I tested it on paper vs Whisper [I'm constantly wondering why most people other than Ochoa aren't running this card], I came up with the following:

Whisper #1: Draw 2, 1 more than 1st AK
Whisper #2: Draw 4, 1 more than 2nd AK
Whisper #3: Draw 6, break even with 3rd AK
Whisper #4: Draw 8, -2 than 4th AK

AK isn't worth the investment. Intuition can speed this up, but is too slow. By the time you get to the mid game, you should be winning already. AK doesn't do enough to help you get there. Whisper does. I'd see Intuition/AK being fine in a Mono U build, but what would be the sense in that?

Regrowth - It's been surprisingly great in the main. It's far better than Relearn. Getting back Academy, Vault, or Tezzeret end up making the difference. It allows for a game winning Gifts pile, outright. Ultimately, it's great vs Control. It has always been useful game 1.

No Explosives - This card got replaced by Hurkyl's Recall. Null Rod and Bob are the two biggest problems I face, Null Rod being the worst of the two. Explosives does dick with Rod out, which is often the case against Fish, letting Bob survive anyway. Recall also hits Needle/Crypt/Explosives which I had completely lost to in testing when more than 1 of those were on the table. It's also added protection against the mirror if they're tapped out and target Vault w/ Key, at worst. I haven't missed Explosives whatsoever.

Thanks for all the lists.
After reading the replies, I've got a few questions:


1. Is Pithing Needle maindeck material? What are the most common targets G1?

2. Are Duress effects a must-play maindeck? Against decks running Wasteland, fetching out a dual seems risky.

3. What are your opinions on Libary of Alexandria in Tezzeret?

4. What's the best SB card against Oath (aside from Krosan Grip)?

5. Why Firespout over Pyroclasm?

6. What advantages does the green version have over the red version (and vice versa)?

1. Absolutely. Common targets include Wasteland, Flooded Strand, Grindstone, Welder, Engineered Explosives, Bazaar..

2. I don't believe they're 100% must play. While I think play-style has a bit to do with it, I believe Leak/Negate to be better overall. Negate helps you get to 2nd turn Drain, while Duress can close that window for you should they reveal Wasteland. I believe that's the most important reason to run it.

3. Mostly, the suck. It opens you up to Waste. You often have to Force something, getting out of activation range. There are better proactive answers. Library is fine in decks with Intuition/AK, but I'd rather run better lands like Strip Mine. As it is, basic Swamp took Library's place in my main.

4. I've had a decent time with Bridge [better protected w/ Negate], and Threads.

5. Extra damage kills Painter and baby Goyfs.

6. See above.

Discuss!

[tehmajickguy]

For those interested, this is the list I used to take down TMD Open 13:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

1 Trinket Mage
1 Inkwell Leviathan

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Misdirection
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Vault
1 Voltiac Key
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brainstorm
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Sideboard:

3 Tarmogoyf
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Annul
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Yixlid Jailer

Ideally, I'll do a quick report sometime this week.

[jamestosetti]

Heres what I'm running after reading this stuff and having played alot of different variations for a good while.

Tolarian academy
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
2 island
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
2 volcanic island
1 library of alexandria

1 darksteel colossus
1 time vault
1 voltaic key
1 senseis divining top
1 pithing needle
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox saphire
1 mox ruby
1 mox jet
1 lotus petal

1 misdirection
1 negate
4 force of will
4 mana drain
3 thirst for knowledge
1 fact or fiction
1 ancestral recall
1 brainstorm
1 cunning wish
1 mystical tutor
1 gifts ungiven
1 intuition
1 echoing truth
1 time walk
1 merchant scroll
1 tinker

1 vampiric tutor
1 duress
1 demonic tutor
1 yawgmoth's will

1 regrowth

2 tezzeret the seeker

s/b
1 tormod's crypt
1 engineered explosives
1 pithing needle
2 extirpate
2 pyroclasm
1 rack and ruin
1 relic of progenitus
1 yixlid jailer
1 hurky'ls recall
1 sower of temptation
3 trygon predator

[Grand Inquisitor]

Posted by: jamestosetti
Heres what I'm running after reading this stuff and having played alot of different variations for a good while.

This needs a lot of work.  Running Cunning Wish without access to REB is an obvious sign that you haven't considered all your options.

I'd argue that if you're not running ancient grudge, there's no reason to splash the 4th color.  Also, I think it's almost common knowledge that Inkwell (or, IMO, Titan) are strictly better than DSC.

this is the list I used to take down TMD Open 13:

Matt, this list looks great, congrats.

It's a small point, but do you think 3 thoughtseize, 1 duress may have been more correct?  How were the annuls out of the board?  I was always worried they'd be too slow for Oath, Stax.