Terastodon Oath

[Rico Suave]

I feel like I opened Pandora's Box.  

Look, it's a pretty simple set of circumstances from my point of view.  I come into this thread and see people testing against a Fish build that I find easy to beat, and not surprisingly the people testing it find that the Oath deck is heavily favored.  OK.  I have no problem with this part.

I have a problem with the implication that all builds of Fish are easy to defeat.  This is just simply not true from my experience.  I tried to explain some reasons why, but it's quite clear that did not go over well.  

So what do you want me to say?  That Massacre stops the Trygon Predator from ending the game, or Perish isn't completely awful against True Believer?  Or that Tinker -> Robot is actually going to get there against a deck with more answers to Tinker than you have counters to stop?

[Cyberpunker]

I have something to add to this discussion. With 26 mana sources, you gain the advantage in the Bant and MUD matchup because their wastelands and spheres will not have as big of an impact on you.

But the problem is in the control mirror when you are facing a deck that has cut to 23-24 mana sources preboard. This happens usually in the 1-3 rounds of swiss. If you cannot get your Oath out, you will mana flood before he does and he will outplay you in the control game because he will draw counters/draw spellls/broken spells/threats while you topdeck land. So that is the tradeoff you make for running 26 mana sources.

And I think everyone should know that this deck is not invincible and is still vulnerable to the same things that Tezzeret is/was. Dredge is even harder because you have less draw spells to help you dig for your combo and Oath gives them 2 turns. MUD is still very good against you if they start first or if they can lock you out before you resolve Oath. ANT can very much outrace you if you play like an idiot and do not hold back your mana for counters. Basically you have to wait for them, and that could be a weird feeling when you have gotten used to being the aggressive deck. And Bant is a terrible matchup game 1 if you are facing an experienced player with a solid build.

And btw, we would all learn so much more from this forum if some people would just admit that they don't know everything about the game and that others may have just found out something they could use.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I have something to add to this discussion. With 26 mana sources, you gain the advantage in the Bant and MUD matchup because their wastelands and spheres will not have as big of an impact on you.

But the problem is in the control mirror when you are facing a deck that has cut to 23-24 mana sources preboard. This happens usually in the 1-3 rounds of swiss. If you cannot get your Oath out, you will mana flood before he does and he will outplay you in the control game because he will draw counters/draw spellls/broken spells/threats while you topdeck land. So that is the tradeoff you make for running 26 mana sources.

And I think everyone should know that this deck is not invincible and is still vulnerable to the same things that Tezzeret is/was. Dredge is even harder because you have less draw spells to help you dig for your combo and Oath gives them 2 turns. MUD is still very good against you if they start first or if they can lock you out before you resolve Oath. ANT can very much outrace you if you play like an idiot and do not hold back your mana for counters. Basically you have to wait for them, and that could be a weird feeling when you have gotten used to being the aggressive deck. And Bant is a terrible matchup game 1 if you are facing an experienced player with a solid build.

And btw, we would all learn so much more from this forum if some people would just admit that they don't know everything about the game and that others may have just found out something they could use.

Doesn't See Beyond help you get away with a higher land count? Also I don't really see how MUD can stop Oath at all. I mean you're running 26 mana sources and your win condition(s) cost 2 mana while their win condition(s) and lock pieces are creatures that activate Oath for free. I agree on Dredge and ANT but it seems to me like that is just stating the obvious.

[Odd mutation]

I got 4th place out of 41 last weekend in Breda with Terastodon Oath. Go here for a report.

Robrecht

[Cyberpunker]

I have something to add to this discussion. With 26 mana sources, you gain the advantage in the Bant and MUD matchup because their wastelands and spheres will not have as big of an impact on you.

But the problem is in the control mirror when you are facing a deck that has cut to 23-24 mana sources preboard. This happens usually in the 1-3 rounds of swiss. If you cannot get your Oath out, you will mana flood before he does and he will outplay you in the control game because he will draw counters/draw spellls/broken spells/threats while you topdeck land. So that is the tradeoff you make for running 26 mana sources.

And I think everyone should know that this deck is not invincible and is still vulnerable to the same things that Tezzeret is/was. Dredge is even harder because you have less draw spells to help you dig for your combo and Oath gives them 2 turns. MUD is still very good against you if they start first or if they can lock you out before you resolve Oath. ANT can very much outrace you if you play like an idiot and do not hold back your mana for counters. Basically you have to wait for them, and that could be a weird feeling when you have gotten used to being the aggressive deck. And Bant is a terrible matchup game 1 if you are facing an experienced player with a solid build.

And btw, we would all learn so much more from this forum if some people would just admit that they don't know everything about the game and that others may have just found out something they could use.

Doesn't See Beyond help you get away with a higher land count? Also I don't really see how MUD can stop Oath at all. I mean you're running 26 mana sources and your win condition(s) cost 2 mana while their win condition(s) and lock pieces are creatures that activate Oath for free. I agree on Dredge and ANT but it seems to me like that is just stating the obvious.

The problem is that if we do not have Oath available and they set up their lock pieces, we are just as helpless as tezzeret right? The main misconception about the MUD matchup is that it is a good matchup. I think it is 50/50 based on who has the most broken starting hand and who gets to go first. MUD can lock us out and we never get to cast Oath should they go first. What are your results vs the newer MUD decks? I know we win a lot but in my experience the matchup can also turn very bad for us if we don't have early Oath or they go first and deny us early Oath. Early lock pieces or delay pieces plus Golem to pound us and MUD can race us for the win.

[BruiZar]

-1 Darksteel Colossus
-1 Iona
+1 Sharuum, the Hegemon
+1 Wargate

I didn't like the creature mix at all. I suggest testing something like this.

This way, you can assemble the vault key combo easier and you can tinker for time vault when it is in your library or your graveyard (tinker time vault from deck, or tinker sharuum to grab time vault from yard). Darksteel Colossus is just really bad. Keep Terastodon to remove Null Rod or other lock pieces. Iona moves to sideboard.

Wargate to Tinker up vault / key / Oath of Druids / Black Lotus (Useful for hardcasting Oath creatures) / Tolarian Academy / Strip Mine / Forbidden Orchard.

Use Regrowth / Yawgmoth's Will / Tinker into Sharuum to get combo from grave.

Use Tinker / Wargate / Demonic Tutor / Vampiric Tutor to get the combo from the deck

[Delha]

+1 Wargate

Are you serious?

[conboy31]

+1 Wargate

You will virtually never cast wargate vs. any sphere deck.  It is a prime target for spell pierce as you probably have to tap out to play wargate.  The card is a sorcery. And three colors.
If you really want a similar card play the one turn slower but mana efficient imperial seal.

[BruiZar]

I agree that imp seal might be much better.

[The Atog Lord]

If nothing else, New Jace has made Imperial Seal a card that I would not want to run.

[TheWhiteDragon]

On the contrary, RUNNING jace makes imp seal a 1 mana DT when using his brainstorm ability.  To me, the new jace (esp. since he is built for oath) is a reason FOR running imp seal, not against.

[MULocke]

On the contrary, RUNNING jace makes imp seal a 1 mana DT when using his brainstorm ability.  To me, the new jace (esp. since he is built for oath) is a reason FOR running imp seal, not against.

If you're activating Jace multiple turns in a row, there's really no need to have another tutor; you're probably going to win anyway.  However, if you only have one of those cards, it's probably much better to have Jace.  I.e., Jace is the real powerhouse and the Imperial Seal is just the icing on the cake (win-more).  Imperial Seal is a fine card, but you still have to justify it over some better cards.

[H]

Perhaps The Atog Lord meant it as if your opponent has a Jace out; a sorcery speed topdeck tutor is pretty bad right there.

[MULocke]

Perhaps The Atog Lord meant it as if your opponent has a Jace out; a sorcery speed topdeck tutor is pretty bad right there.

+2: Counter target spell, they lose 2 life.

What can't new Jace do?

I was mostly responding to the tandem of Jace and Seal together, I didn't really consider opposing Jaces.  Jace on the other side is pretty scary for us, as he nullifies up to 3 of our lines of play.  Basically, everything that isn't Terastodon or Time Vault gets shut down.  No Oathing Iona, no Tinker target unless it's Inkwell, and no Show and Tell unless you have Terastodon.

[Cyberpunker]

I was mostly responding to the tandem of Jace and Seal together, I didn't really consider opposing Jaces.  Jace on the other side is pretty scary for us, as he nullifies up to 3 of our lines of play.  Basically, everything that isn't Terastodon or Time Vault gets shut down.  No Oathing Iona, no Tinker target unless it's Inkwell, and no Show and Tell unless you have Terastodon.

You gotta Oath in that situation, because you lose for sure if you don't do anything when they have Jace out. And you'll eventually hit Terastodan anyways right?


EDIT:

I just came to another realization after some testing yesterday at the Legacy tournament (5-1  ). And this deck needs to win the counter war over its Oath because if it does not, it has a very large chance of mana flooding afterwards and losing in the control mirror.

To prove a point, I tested versus a landstill deck that had 20 counterspells and no win conditions other than Vendillion Cliques. I kept a very risky hand and lost the counter war. Afterwards I would mana flood and died to my own tokens and Vendillion Clique. We tested and everytime I lost the counterwar, I would flood and lose the game because he would draw more spells while I would draw more land. That's the consequence of running so many lands.

If your opponent does not run that many counterspells, you can still have a chance. But even unpowered hate.dec can have a chance simply by loading up on disruption and counters.

[voltron00x]

Right, so let's get back to smashing people with Oath:


4 Oath of Druids
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tezzeret, the Seeker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Drain
1 Mindbreak Trap

1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 See Beyond
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Time Walk
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
5 Mox

4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Nature's Claim
1 Firespout
1 Massacre
1 Rebuild
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Ravenous Trap

[Cyberpunker]

I noticed you don't likie Tolarian or Library. Library helps a lot in the control mirror if you get it early. Tolarian can help you with mana too.

Why the maindeck Mindbreak trap? Do you use it often?

[voltron00x]

Just because I'm not playing Tolarian or Library doesn't mean I don't like them.  I sometimes play both, or one or the other.

Strip Mine is very powerful in the mirror and a great weapon against Dredge. 

I like Academy but want to play two basics; for as many games as I won with Academy, I was disappointed to have a non-basic Island.

Mindbreak Trap has been very good, but it really depends on the penetration of Dredge / Shops / Fish vs. Storm / Oath / Tezz.

[Smmenen]

Voltronxx: are you going to play with Preordain in Oath?  Is it better than See Beyond ( a card I know I hyped up during Eldrazi)? 

[voltron00x]

See Beyond seems much better than Preordain, in Oath.  I’m not playing Ponder currently so have no plans for using Preordain.  I played 2 See Beyond a few weeks back and was never upset to draw them, but I try to minimize those types of sorcery-speed cards when Shops are popular.  Someone wrote about MUD Aggro so it is the flavor du jour, and Oath builds need to account for that.

[Smmenen]

See Beyond seems much better than Preordain, in Oath.  I’m not playing Ponder currently so have no plans for using Preordain.  I played 2 See Beyond a few weeks back and was never upset to draw them, but I try to minimize those types of sorcery-speed cards when Shops are popular.  Someone wrote about MUD Aggro so it is the flavor du jour, and Oath builds need to account for that.

that makes sense.   I really liked See Beyond, as I said in my eldrzi set review, but was surprised that it hasn't really gotten much traction.  Paul M keeps telling me its mediocre.

your oath list looks amazing, btw.   I did notice, though, that you didn't have ponder, but i was wondering if you might reconsider this with the possibility of multiple preordain.   It's interesting that neither Oath nor Tez may actually use Preordain, in the main. 

[Troy_Costisick]

See Beyond seems much better than Preordain, in Oath.  I’m not playing Ponder currently so have no plans for using Preordain.  I played 2 See Beyond a few weeks back and was never upset to draw them, but I try to minimize those types of sorcery-speed cards when Shops are popular.  Someone wrote about MUD Aggro so it is the flavor du jour, and Oath builds need to account for that.

that makes sense.   I really liked See Beyond, as I said in my eldrzi set review, but was surprised that it hasn't really gotten much traction.  Paul M keeps telling me its mediocre.

I like See Beyond in Oath over Preordain as well.  I was leaning more towards adding in more Show and Tells to deal with creatures in hand, but with big Sphere decks becoming more and more prevelant, I'm liking a two mana sorcery over a three mana sorcery more and more.

[Shax]

Eventhough this Oath list doesn't run Terastodon, it's got a nice kick to it. It's very similar to the TurboTezz on deckcheck that took 1st few months back with the addition of Oath in the main. Sleeve it up, it has issues but what deck doesn't?

TurboOath'nTezzv2:

2 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Library of Alexandria

1 Sphinx of The Steel Wind
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn

4 Force of Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Demonic Tutor
5 Moxen
3 Sol Lotus Crypt
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Regrowth
4 Spell Pierce
3 Tezzerett, The Seeker
1 Voltaic Key
4 Mana Drain
1 Time Vault
1 Transmute Artifact
4 Oath of Druids

Side:
2 Nature's Claim
2 Hurky'ls Recall
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast
1 Forest
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Naturalize

Gameplan//Card Choices: Well, the first question you might ask yourself with this list is where is Iona, or Terastodon for that matter. Emrakul is terribly  underrated for what he can do to a game when he hits from Oath.  Time Vault is the main win condition, but Oath shores up all the creatures pretty well with Emrakul.  Iona is a good stick and shutsdown the game. But Emrakul wins you the game by himself. Sometimes Iona just can't cut it. And if it matters, everytime I've managed to actually hardcast Emrakul I've won period. The reshuffle your graveyard has also been relevant at times. Let's face it, Sphinx is amazing and is the Tinker target of choice. Three Tezzerett insure I can win with Vault alot. Transmute Artfact, hasn't been the greatest but it does win me the game with the other piece out there. Another question might be the lack of artifact bounce. Well this Tezz/Oath list plans to win game one, or at the very least throw as many win conditions at the opponent and hope it gets there with counterspells and bombs. Good plan though. There aren't any dead cards here, with the exception of the two creatures and the Vault-Key cards. I haven't missed Terastodon much, if any. Having a playset of Pierce and Drain is excellent. I don't understand the reasoning in not running four Drain, if your going to be playing Drains. It's busted for a reason, even if your playing lots of Dredge.

 The sideboard can pretty well speak for itself, and I don't bother with things like Jace or the 2CMC Blue Draw spells, because I'll be winning with Tezz by then. Null Rod game one? Well you can switch over to tinker/oath pretty easy. Most of the time oppoenents have trouble playing against the two in tandem game's one and two. Magic is a game of luck to a extent, so why not play with lots of counters and win-cons? The tools are there for pretty much all the pillars, with the exception of Mindbreak Trap for combo, but thats not on the rise anytime soon until Preordain.

[Sporkcore]

With M11 being legal next week, I was wondering... does Stormtide Leviathan have a place in this deck? It's an Island Sanctuary on legs and gives itself evasion. While it does have the disadvantage of letting opponents have access to blue mana or in Stax's case, not take damage off Ancient Tombs, it seems like forcing opponents to attack with only flyers and islandwalkers might be worth it.

[Lurker101]

With M11 being legal next week, I was wondering... does Stormtide Leviathan have a place in this deck? It's an Island Sanctuary on legs and gives itself evasion. While it does have the disadvantage of letting opponents have access to blue mana or in Stax's case, not take damage off Ancient Tombs, it seems like forcing opponents to attack with only flyers and islandwalkers might be worth it.

It also seems like it would possibly be could against Dredge because otherwise nothing they have can attack until they hit their dread return target. It also shuts down Lodestone beats and such. I'm sure it will be tested.

[Delha]

But Emrakul wins you the game by himself. Sometimes Iona just can't cut it. And if it matters, everytime I've managed to actually hardcast Emrakul I've won period.

The arguement against Emrakul has always been that he has no immediate impact on the board. If you're hardcasting him (which in and of itself surprises me), that's not a relevant comparison, since the entire point of having Oath at all is to quickly cheat your fatties into play. T2 Oath activation doesn't happen every game, but it's also not at all unheard of. I can't think of any remotely feasible way your list can hardcasting Emrakul at comparable speed.

It also seems like it would possibly be could against Dredge because otherwise nothing they have can attack until they hit their dread return target. It also shuts down Lodestone beats and such. I'm sure it will be tested.

Isn't Sphinx just better? It beats at comparable speed (although the extra turn you may give them can admittedly be huge), and builds a life buffer on top in case they rip removal.

[Malakai]

Matt, has Jace really been that good for you?  I played with the list you posted on SCG for quite a while, and he often seemed like a liability against Stax/MUD/Fish.  I found his mana cost to be cumbersome at sorcery speed (and non-creature at that).  I eventually switched one out for a Fact or Fiction, and it seemed like that card was winning me more games than Jace was.

[Rico Suave]

One of the reasons I'm not such a big fan of Oath right now is because I felt uncomfortable with the number of mulligans I had to take during the course of a tournament.  As an example, my last tournament match with Oath resulted in me getting knocked out after 4 mulligans across 3 games.  

This had been a problem for a while but I never really knew what to do about it.  I tried adding See Beyond in an attempt to smooth out some of the deck's draws and give it more playable opening hands.  See Beyond did succeed in improving the deck's consistency and reliability, but it did result in what felt like a weaker deck.  

There is a certain trade off between the speed and agility versus raw power.  A card like Jace is stronger than See Beyond, but See Beyond is much more nimble and useful, and it provides options across a wide variety of situations that Jace cannot.  I have been unable to find a good balance for my own liking, but if I were to play tomorrow I would likely run at least 1, if not several See Beyond.  

[voltron00x]

Matt, has Jace really been that good for you?  I played with the list you posted on SCG for quite a while, and he often seemed like a liability against Stax/MUD/Fish.  I found his mana cost to be cumbersome at sorcery speed (and non-creature at that).  I eventually switched one out for a Fact or Fiction, and it seemed like that card was winning me more games than Jace was.

It all depends on what you're playing against, what you're trying to beat.  Jace is ridiculous in the mirror, it can be very strong against Fish if you power it out quickly, and it can be highly useful in pulling ahead of an opponent like TPS / Drain Tendrils where both players expend their early resources countering each other's attempts to get ahead.  I'm also a fan of planeswalkers in general, even in Vintage, because of the tendency of opponents to misplay terribly once Planeswalkers hit the board.  If your metagame becomes infested with Workshops, it can be a liability, but at the same time if you resolve it quickly, it can still blow games open there.  Jace adds a lot to the deck's consistency as well.  Still, it may make sense to play 2x See Beyond, 1x Jace or some other mix involving Ponder / Preordain / Top.

[Smmenen]

Matt, what about Ponder over Thirst in your list?  I think Ponder is better than Thirst, esp. in a metagame where MUD is so popular. I'd rather have Ponder against Fish and TPS, too.