Human Ingenuity

[MrGlantz]

I don't really understand why Flamespeaker is in the list. It has anti synergy with Thalia and Lodestone and so many high cmc spells. Otherwise it looks fun.

[Samoht]

I don't really understand why Flamespeaker is in the list. It has anti synergy with Thalia and Lodestone and so many high cmc spells. Otherwise it looks fun.

My immediate reaction as well, though I didn't really see why it included LSG as opposed to PSP.

[Guli]

Because Flamespeaker is the card to capitalize on in this prison/lifegain/combo deck. The card puts control in a very awkward spot, if they don't deal with it they lose, but what about the other threats like thalia, golem, revoker and so on...

[Samoht]

Because Flamespeaker is the card to capitalize on in this prison/lifegain/combo deck. The card puts control in a very awkward spot, if they don't deal with it they lose, but what about the other threats like thalia, golem, revoker and so on...

If you can't cast the cards off it because of LSG/Thalia its just a 3 mana 2/2.

[vaughnbros]

The curve of this deck seems way too high for this to be an aggro deck with 8 4 drops and 6 3 drops seems like far too many for a tempo deck.  

It also doesn't seem to capitalize on the 5 color mana base.  It's running only a handful of cards from each color instead opting for artifacts, like lodestone and revoker both of which are not really where you want to be considering their vulnerability to the massive amount of artifact hate in the format.

The biggest issue is there is very little synergy between notion thief and the rest of the deck as well as flamespeaker and the rest of the deck.  In general the only synergy seems to be that most of the cards are focused on mana denial and I think you'd be better off with a mono white shopseque list if that's what the list is trying to do.

Keeping with a more humans theme, I still wouldn't want to deviate too far from the proven core of bob, Thalia and mayor.  The newer pieces, notion thief and flamespeaker could fit well with braids (one cuts your opponents draw engine off the other gives you one). Both effects being devastating with the smokestack human in play.  Braids also gets value out of your bobs, cities, and mana confluence when you are low on life.

[Guli]

All valid arguments guys, but is it so difficult to get a Thalia, Revoker and a Golem in play the first 3  turns wit this amount of mana acceleration?

This list was my first take to utilize some of the newest cards. I tried to come up with someting that can put out serious threats fast, with a mana denial theme that isn't based on rods, and at the same time able to draw into more threats with a nasty combo. I also tried to implement a lifegain element, because that was an issue according to those who tested these city/confluence and cavern mana bases.

I am not done yet with this mana base, I am liking it a lot and the trick is, in my opinion, to put pressure on the opponent so they can't really take advantage of your life loss situation.

I am eager to try out a Noble and/or Mayor approach too now.

[Samoht]

All valid arguments guys, but is it so difficult to get a Thalia, Revoker and a Golem in play the first 3  turns wit this amount of mana acceleration?

This list was my first take to utilize some of the newest cards. I tried to come up with someting that can put out serious threats fast, with a mana denial theme that isn't based on rods, and at the same time able to draw into more threats with a nasty combo. I also tried to implement a lifegain element, because that was an issue according to those who tested these city/confluence and cavern mana bases.

I am not done yet with this mana base, I am liking it a lot and the trick is, in my opinion, to put pressure on the opponent so they can't really take advantage of your life loss situation.

I am eager to try out a Noble and/or Mayor approach too now.

Our point is that you are playing divergent cards. LSG especially works AGAINST PSP. The strength of this deck has always been the synergy.

[vaughnbros]

Here's where my starting point would be for the main deck (I only worry about the board after I've set this in stone).  Basically you can grind out a ton of card advantage, and still have a solid mana denial and beatdown strategy:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Braids, Cabal Minion
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Notion Thief
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Trinket Mage
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1 Devout Witness

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
2 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

I think I'd eventually cut the recruiters/trinket mage package once I figured out a good combination of supporting cast creatures (since as is the curve is still probably too high).  The strength here compared with earlier versions of the deck is the mana base is now stabilized with so many rainbow lands you never have to worry about colored mana now.

[Guli]

All valid arguments guys, but is it so difficult to get a Thalia, Revoker and a Golem in play the first 3  turns wit this amount of mana acceleration?

This list was my first take to utilize some of the newest cards. I tried to come up with someting that can put out serious threats fast, with a mana denial theme that isn't based on rods, and at the same time able to draw into more threats with a nasty combo. I also tried to implement a lifegain element, because that was an issue according to those who tested these city/confluence and cavern mana bases.

I am not done yet with this mana base, I am liking it a lot and the trick is, in my opinion, to put pressure on the opponent so they can't really take advantage of your life loss situation.

I am eager to try out a Noble and/or Mayor approach too now.

Our point is that you are playing divergent cards. LSG especially works AGAINST PSP. The strength of this deck has always been the synergy.

What is PSP? Is the flamespeaker? Or playing spells per turn? When you have a Golem and Thalia in play, the clock and tempo is so great that you really don't mind about other things. And you can always use your artifact mana to bypass the Golem sphere. It really is not a big deal.

[xouman]

Golem is really deceptive. I love that creature, it often wins itself. Guli is right that normally, once you stack a golem, you are ahead, and often you don't need to keep the pace playing spells. It's not as devastating here as in mud, but is really really good, and opponent cannot play a lot of artifact hate against this deck (lots of times it would be dead)

However, golem is not always GG, and it's true that makes worse cards like flamespeaker or notion thief. I'm ok with golem, but realizing this loss of synergy with the CA side of the deck.

[vaughnbros]

Neither of us are disputing the power of Thalia->Lodestone.  The problem lies with the cards you are playing with them.  Why a 5 color mana base when your two most important cards only require white?  Why are you playing draw 7's and prophetic flamespeaker with them in your deck?  The deck is being pulled in too many directions with choices like this.  Play mono white if you are going to focus on mana denial you are going to have a much better time.

[Guli]

Yes, you want to play draw 7 with spheres in play, because this way you are turning of their counter spells and/or combo when and after you draw 7. And I am pretty sure I will be the one that empties his hand before my opponent does. I try to set up a Thief + draw 7 usually, but sometimes you do empty out quick with your acceleration and get e fresh 7 while your opponent still has 6 or 7 cards in hand, this is a lot of card advantage.

Draw 7's are not just for Grim Long or other turbo combo variants. You can use them to refill and now with Thief, you can use them to win the game on the spot.

[Guli]

Here's where my starting point would be for the main deck (I only worry about the board after I've set this in stone).  Basically you can grind out a ton of card advantage, and still have a solid mana denial and beatdown strategy:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Braids, Cabal Minion
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Notion Thief
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Trinket Mage
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1 Devout Witness

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
2 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

I think I'd eventually cut the recruiters/trinket mage package once I figured out a good combination of supporting cast creatures (since as is the curve is still probably too high).  The strength here compared with earlier versions of the deck is the mana base is now stabilized with so many rainbow lands you never have to worry about colored mana now.

List seems to be low anti combo and anti moxes. You should play against Brian Kelly's Humanstorm decks, you will realize you need Chalice/Stony to slow things down, because they tend to get out of hand quickly. Mental Misstep is also a valuable way to get your opponent in topdeck mode while you do your mana denial plan.

The list seems very strong against something like Landstill or other slower decks. The Recruiters put you in a very good spot here, I love it. You can get your Flamespeaker and they would need a Bolt to not lose the game. Which makes me think about the next thing:

(Forget about the golem/draw7/thief list)

I got inspired by the aggro loam legacy deck that uses Mox diamonds, and Chalice of the void to get out a fast Chalice at 1. The deck has no 1cc spells. With Cavern of Souls you can still cast your Noble if you want to play Noble. Chalice of the Void is one of the key card for Workshop to keep the broken blue decks at bay. The card can serve an important role in Humans too. It can be a mana disruptor, but it can also be a control card. I also think you can call yourself safe enough when there are 4 Thalia and 4 Chalice in the deck.

Second argument is that you do not run any lifelink enabler. Once the combo match ups are covered, there should always be some room to cover the aggro match ups as well. How will you beat that UR Delver list that Stephen is talking about? You need a way to regain life to win the race. If you do use recruiters, just add 1 stoneforge and a batterskull/jitte. You can also try 1 Dawnbringer Charioteers from the new set, it is Recruitable, blocks all small flyers, is out of bolt range and decay can't kill it.

[brianpk80]

Some good news for folks who enjoy the more explosive side of Humans:

Matt Murray won the Championship Belt at the Lancaster Invitational event last weekend on Humanstorm after placing first in the Swiss with an undefeated record.  He also placed in the Top 4 at last month's Bloomsburg on the deck but changed a few cards for the Lancaster event whose official report is forthcoming.  

And this weekend at Elmira, the finals had the distinction of being the first in Vintage history where both decks competing were running maindeck Magus of the Futures.  The decks in question were "4-Color Cavern Control" (which I was piloting) and a new variation of "Red Deck Wins" by the infamous Justin Kohler, whose new brew included a complete Stoneforge Mystic package in the sideboard (4 SfM, 2 Batterskull).  Since he ran a Magus main in addition to Jace, he nicknamed the variant "Magus Stoneblade."  We split the prize in the finals and completed the match at a different venue where 4-Color Cavern Control prevailed 2-1.  

The highlight of the day was game 2 in the semi-finals where I beat Storm combo by Tinkering a Voltaic Key into an Ethersworn Canonist.  He had played Necropotence and filled his hand and I was 1 mana shy of being able to Key/Vault him with mana to untap, so instead of Tinkering into Vault and passing the turn (which would have lost), the first half of Vintage's premiere infinite turns combo transformed into a hate bear.  And it got there.

The list was as follows:

4-Color Cavern Control (Brian Kelly)
First Place Vintage (Prize Split), Elmira, NY 5-31-14



Land:
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
2 Mana Confluence
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

Important Humans:
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Trinket Mage
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Magus of the Future

Tinker Target:
1 Myr Battlesphere

Artifacts:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Instants:
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
1 Flusterstorm
1 Steel Sabotage

Jace:
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Tinker

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Notion Thief
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 War Priest of Thune
1 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Karakas
1 Lingering Souls

The deck is less explosive than some I've played and the tradeoff is having more options for Shop/mana denial/Creature strategies maindeck while using Cavern of Souls fueled "hate-bears" from the sideboard to gain advantage in other matches.  The right anti-strategy creature can do more for you than 2-3 counterspells combined (especially with all of the hand disruption in combo) and I've found this approach to be economical and effective.  Aegis of the Gods performed better than expected and I was thankful to have him there when I was paired against a Painter deck in one of the rounds (since Aegis prevents Grindstone).  Lingering Souls was also superb at holding off Delvers, Pyromancer tokens, Vendilion Cliques, and buying time against other aggro strategies till I could resolve a Fact or Fiction, Magus, Jace, or win-con.  That's all for now.  -B

[The Atog Lord]

Congratulations, brian!

[Samoht]

Brian, I love the construction of that deck a lot. It is obvious how much work and thought you've put into it. Thanks for sharing!

[xouman]

I borrowed some ideas from this deck, but featuring confidants and 3 salvagers, and the deck performs better than I thought. However, I'm not sure those decks could fit under "Null rod based aggro". Time to change the thread to "Cavern of souls decks"?

[Guli]

Tinker into Ethersworn Canonist. That is just awsome! Makes me wonder... Play Tinker and use it as a a Green Sun's Zenith for Artifact creatures instead of green creatures.  Toolbox: Ethersworn Canonist, Lodestone Golem, Null Rod and Phyrexian Revoker.

[Chubby Rain]

Tinker into Ethersworn Canonist. That is just awsome! Makes me wonder... Play Tinker and use it as a a Green Sun's Zenith for Artifact creatures instead of green creatures.  Toolbox: Ethersworn Canonist, Lodestone Golem, Null Rod and Phyrexian Revoker.

Transmute Artifact for redundancy.

[brianpk80]

Thanks Tom, Rich, Matt, Guli, and xouman.

The success of the Fact or Fiction decks was a point of inspiration for some changes.  In Magus Bomberman, I had been alternating between 1x Gifts or 1x Fact in builds and went with 1x Fact in Lancaster where the card performed well (for everyone running it).  I wanted to try 3x Fact here and switched back from Bob to the Hierarchs to better accelerate into that spell.  Originally, I had Tinker + Robot in the sideboard to be brought in v. Shops and Null Rod decks but in testing I found I wanted it main slightly more often than not so 1 of the Facts was dropped to support the Tinker package.  I think it would be possible to support 4x Fact or Fiction with 3 or 4 Hierarchs to speed up the process (as well as hedging against the mana denial decks) as Land, Mox, Hierarch => Turn 2 Fact or Fiction is a very powerful play.  

I borrowed some ideas from this deck, but featuring confidants and 3 salvagers, and the deck performs better than I thought. However, I'm not sure those decks could fit under "Null rod based aggro". Time to change the thread to "Cavern of souls decks"?

The thread name is ok I think; all of the decks here are Cavern Humans, and while some of them fuse concepts from Hate-Bear/Aggro with other genres and don't play out like Null Rod decks, a lot of them do so it seems acceptable that the overall thread is stored in the Fish section of TMD.  Cavern decks may defy a lot of stereotypes and categorizations and certainly deserve their own thread; however, I wouldn't be so bold as to suggest that they deserve their own forum.  

Thank you again to everyone for the positive feedback.

[Guli]

I like how we all gather here to give new card idea's, reports our results, and discuss things that are related to Humans in general. I like the plurality.

I do see xouman's point nevertheless, what Brian is doing with Caverns and the Humans is the exact opposite of what a Null Rod deck does. If we would attempt to make a categorization it would in my opinion be a Blue-Based Control. But let's not forget the historical aspect here, Brian did start with Mayor of Avabruck just like I did to get his first top 8 success. Just because of this, and in order to see how the deck's evolved, I would leave it as it is. A couple years later, it will be more interesting to read all this in the same thread for those who want to see the origins of these Cavern variations.

It just isn't my taste of a deck though (the human storm decks), I need to be able to burst out with Exava and play my turn 1 Thalia to enjoy my games. But I can definitely see TPS fans enjoy Human Storm a lot. In fact, I am a strong believer that Brian actually brought back TPS. His list adapted very well to the other blue mages while maintaining a good score against shop and oath. Just look at his performance, it is impressive:

Brian's top 8 results

[Archae]

Brian, that play reminds me of our match when I tinkered into Null Rod before you were able to storm off. Nice to see you doing something similar. Congrats on the finish!

[brianpk80]

Brian, that play reminds me of our match when I tinkered into Null Rod before you were able to storm off. Nice to see you doing something similar. Congrats on the finish!

Thanks Dan.  I remember that; Null Rod coming into play out of nowhere with me shocked cause if it had been anticipated I could at least crack some Spellbombs and draw with Top.  Well played!

I like how we all gather here to give new card idea's, reports our results, and discuss things that are related to Humans in general. I like the plurality.

But let's not forget the historical aspect here, Brian did start with Mayor of Avabruck just like I did to get his first top 8 success. Just because of this, and in order to see how the deck's evolved, I would leave it as it is. A couple years later, it will be more interesting to read all this in the same thread for those who want to see the origins of these Cavern variations.

It just isn't my taste of a deck though (the human storm decks), I need to be able to burst out with Exava and play my turn 1 Thalia to enjoy my games. But I can definitely see TPS fans enjoy Human Storm a lot. In fact, I am a strong believer that Brian actually brought back TPS. His list adapted very well to the other blue mages while maintaining a good score against shop and oath. Just look at his performance, it is impressive:

Brian's top 8 results

Thanks, Guli.  Everything is tied together by the Caverns and even in the most combo-esque builds I make, I'm still incorporating the original "hate bear" technologies against other strategies (uncounterable Ethersworn Canonists, True Believers/Aegis of the Gods, War Priest of Thune).  The link there was a nice compilation of events but I think more than half of them are missing, especially from Lancaster, Elmira, and even the NYSE where Mayor Fish was in the Top 16.  I appreciate the props!  -B

[TheWhiteDragon]

Congrats brian.  That deck looks an awful lot like bomberman with a crittercentric SB actually...not much like humanfish.  I'd make the suggestion of replacing the gitaxian and probe (and maybe 1 other card) for 1-2 living wish.  It's like DT for your sb since you already have access to green land.  You can snag karakas, aegis, war priest, etc G1 and have the maindeck answer you normally wouuldnt have until G2.  You could even run a trinket/salvager in the sb.  I'd also suggest a phyrexian revoker in the sb (especially with the wish idea).  I run living wishes in my Dark Times deck (can get depths, stage, or any of many hoser creatures) and it is phenomenal...like DT #2-4 for me.

[brianpk80]

Congrats brian.  That deck looks an awful lot like bomberman with a crittercentric SB actually...not much like humanfish.  I'd make the suggestion of replacing the gitaxian and probe (and maybe 1 other card) for 1-2 living wish.  It's like DT for your sb since you already have access to green land.  You can snag karakas, aegis, war priest, etc G1 and have the maindeck answer you normally wouuldnt have until G2.  You could even run a trinket/salvager in the sb.  I'd also suggest a phyrexian revoker in the sb (especially with the wish idea).  I run living wishes in my Dark Times deck (can get depths, stage, or any of many hoser creatures) and it is phenomenal...like DT #2-4 for me.

Thank you for the suggestion.  The deck isn't supposed to be Fish; the piloting mentality is the control role.  I'll pick up some Living Wishes sometime soon.  This deck might not be the best home for them since green is only a minute auxiliary color; it's just there for Hierarchs.  But Living Wish seems like a good card to own for general deck building purposes.  Good call.  -B

[serracollector]

Has anyone thought of testing Selvala, Explorer Returned? Her ability syncs very well with Spirit, and she is a mana producer, as well as life gain which is apparently becoming necessary with the use of bobs and 8 cities.

[Guli]

To be honest, I am not sure that lifegain is an issue when you design properly. When you are going with things like Knight of the Reliquary (or other slower things like Dark Confidant, Noble Hierarch and so on) this implies that you are slowrolling things. I took the comments of Storm and Xouman for granted when they came here and posted their concerns about the life loss issue. I now believe they are wrong because of my own personal empirical data/experience.

When you inspect my Golem/Thalia approach closely and not just look at the list and immediately form premature opinions and obvious (but wrong) critics. The best way to negate the life loss is to put extreme pressure on the opponent. During the games I tested the Thalia/Golem prison, I kept track of how many times life mattered, how many times I actually cast the whip (and needed to cast it to survive). The answer is zero. I have yet to cast the whip/jitte/collar in such a fashion that it would actually matter and save me. Because of the early Thalia/Golem/Revoker and dangerous Flamespeaker and Notion Thief the opponent is already under high pressure, they don't have time to take advantage of your decreasing life total due to the city and mana confluence.

I am inclined to cut the life gainers and add even more high priority threats to really push the advantage and tempo that the deck generates early on.

[serracollector]

I understand. i just really like the fact it can give up to two colorless a turn as well as lifegain and card advantage with spirit or when the opponent is locked down. she reminds me a lot of dr shaman in that regard except she does it all in one tap.

[TheWhiteDragon]

To be honest, I am not sure that lifegain is an issue when you design properly. When you are going with things like Knight of the Reliquary (or other slower things like Dark Confidant, Noble Hierarch and so on) this implies that you are slowrolling things. I took the comments of Storm and Xouman for granted when they came here and posted their concerns about the life loss issue. I now believe they are wrong because of my own personal empirical data/experience.

When you inspect my Golem/Thalia approach closely and not just look at the list and immediately form premature opinions and obvious (but wrong) critics. The best way to negate the life loss is to put extreme pressure on the opponent. During the games I tested the Thalia/Golem prison, I kept track of how many times life mattered, how many times I actually cast the whip (and needed to cast it to survive). The answer is zero. I have yet to cast the whip/jitte/collar in such a fashion that it would actually matter and save me. Because of the early Thalia/Golem/Revoker and dangerous Flamespeaker and Notion Thief the opponent is already under high pressure, they don't have time to take advantage of your decreasing life total due to the city and mana confluence.

I am inclined to cut the life gainers and add even more high priority threats to really push the advantage and tempo that the deck generates early on.

I dunno.  It seems that if your opponent is unable to take advantage of lifeloss, than you are playing games where you are virtually untouched.  I can see that being the case vs oath, tezzeret, and a prison shops build...but vs anything aggro, I don't see how your clock is getting through unhindered and your opponent isn't able to land a finger on you.  I do think 8 cities can do some damage, but vs aggro I can't imagine you don't need to watch your life at all.

[Guli]

Well all those first strike and double strike do pay off against aggro. And usually a Golem is bad news for them too.

Right now I just am going with 2x Jitte main deck. It is just the best equipment for the job. And with jitte at least there is a case for 'it is also removal and clock'. On top there is a Tinker plan for Wurmcoil or Jar (or Revoker/Golem/Jitte depending on board)

This is the 'new' list:

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Notion Thief

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
3 Thoughtseize
1 Tinker
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Memory Jar
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB: 3 Karakas
SB: 4 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall