Noble Fish: GUW variants here!

[Harlequin]

The deck runs 1 Island for a reason, and that reason is wasteland.  Stripmine is much worse than wasteland because you can't defend against it by fetching island.  

IMO, there isn't anything much better than keeping stifle open for turn 1 or 2.  I'll delay dropping noble or even null rod if it mean I can stifle something.  Mainly -because- not all decks are blue, and not all decks run full mox.  I want to see what they are going to do on turn 1 and make my play accordingly.  Which most of the time is stifle if I have it.  I'll even bait with a non-basic on turn one to try and draw out a wasteland.  Infact I think one think ALL vintage decks have in common is that they generally all have something to stifle on turn 1.  Be it a fetch, a wasteland, a bazaar or something worse (like a nasty CITP, or a deadly storm/belcher activation).

If you don't think stifle is in the top-5 best cards in the deck, I'd venture a guess they you're not really playing it right.

[Stormanimagus]

The deck runs 1 Island for a reason, and that reason is wasteland.  Stripmine is much worse than wasteland because you can't defend against it by fetching island.  

IMO, there isn't anything much better than keeping stifle open for turn 1 or 2.  I'll delay dropping noble or even null rod if it mean I can stifle something.  Mainly -because- not all decks are blue, and not all decks run full mox.  I want to see what they are going to do on turn 1 and make my play accordingly.  Which most of the time is stifle if I have it.  I'll even bait with a non-basic on turn one to try and draw out a wasteland.  Infact I think one think ALL vintage decks have in common is that they generally all have something to stifle on turn 1.  Be it a fetch, a wasteland, a bazaar or something worse (like a nasty CITP, or a deadly storm/belcher activation).

If you don't think stifle is in the top-5 best cards in the deck, I'd venture a guess they you're not really playing it right.

Understood. And I DO still use Stifle as of now, but I am starting to think that Aven Mindcensor hates out a lot of what is played right now and does it more effectively at times. I realize that you want to hold up mana for Stifle on turn 1, but what about hands where it is not clear how you should develop those first couple turns?

What about a hand like this game 1 on the play?

Stifle, Noble Hierarch, Flooded Strand, Mox Pearl, Cold-Eyed Selkie, Daze, Null Rod

There are a lot of reasons that you don't want to waste time NOT playing Hierarch on turn 1 right? You want that mana available for a Turn 2 Selkie with Daze back-up followed by turn 3 Rod or a turn 2 Rod Followed by turn 3 Selkie assuming you hit a land on turn 2?

I'm just pointing out that it's difficult for many hands to decide when to hold Stifle mana open on turn 1. Am I just grossly mis-playing Stifle? That card hasn't seemed to work for me very often. Normally it's just a tactic (when I have the U up) for bluffing my opponent into NOT fetching, and when I actually have it I need to use the spare mana for some other broken series of plays. Perhaps I just have bad luck on my timing with the card, but I rarely find a way to use it to an advantage in the game state.

[Harlequin]

That's actually a really tough hand.  Certainly keepable, but who you think you might be playing against makes a world of differance.

Turn 1 rod with daze backer is an amazing play.  And while I said "isn't anything much better" I would say that this is one of those situations where perhapse null rod is better.  The problem is what if they are playing stax or ichorid.  If you just have them pegged for blue and you play as such, you would fetch trop play null rod protect with daze and wait on thier next turn to stifle a fetch.  If they come back with wasteland followed by turn 2 shop-> sphere you almost certainly lose.  If they are ichorid, stifle is the only thing in that hand that is relevant.  You need to buy time until wasteland. 

So how you play that hand depends highly on what you expect your opponent is playing.  Against a totally unknown at a big event, flooded pearl go is not an awful play you can hardcast daze, or stifle with daze backer.  Hopefully by then you'll know if its safe to find trop and if next turn you're playing rod (if they are blue) or noble (if they are notblue).

Selkie is irrelevant in this hand.  Turn 2 selkie is 2nd rate to basically every other option.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Am I correct in saying that Mold Adder now replaces Noble Hierarch?

[Implacable]

What?  Why?  They're serving entirely different purposes.  Heirarch circumvents the restrictions that playing a 'fair' manabase imposes on you, while Mold Adder's a suboptimal beater with a perverse incentive: he's best when you've lost.

[AmbivalentDuck]

They fill the same position in the curve and thus compete for space in the deck.  Both are turn 1 permanents against Stax.  While Hierarch adds tempo both in mana and exalted, Mold Adder beats for 2-3 a turn against both combo and Drains.  It also eliminates the perverse incentive to not attack with the full creature swarm.

Yes, Mold Adder is best when your opponent is playing spells, but you aren't necessarily losing to every resolved Ponder.  I'm not sure that "suboptimal" is an appropriate label, either.  A vanilla 3/3 for G might well be playable.  I realize he isn't one, but I remember arguments that Goyf is "just big" and doesn't disrupt the opponent and therefore not worthy of slots in Fish.

[nineisnoone]

They fill the same position in the curve and thus compete for space in the deck.  Both are turn 1 permanents against Stax.  While Hierarch adds tempo both in mana and exalted, Mold Adder beats for 2-3 a turn against both combo and Drains.  It also eliminates the perverse incentive to not attack with the full creature swarm.

Yes, Mold Adder is best when your opponent is playing spells, but you aren't necessarily losing to every resolved Ponder.  I'm not sure that "suboptimal" is an appropriate label, either.  A vanilla 3/3 for G might well be playable.  I realize he isn't one, but I remember arguments that Goyf is "just big" and doesn't disrupt the opponent and therefore not worthy of slots in Fish.

But Heirarch isn't there just to fill in the 1 spot, it's there to give mana to cast Selkie and exhalted to boost Selkie.  Heirarch isn't a interchangeable 1 drop.  Hence, the deck often bears it (or Selkie's) name.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

They fill the same position in the curve and thus compete for space in the deck.  Both are turn 1 permanents against Stax.  While Hierarch adds tempo both in mana and exalted, Mold Adder beats for 2-3 a turn against both combo and Drains.  It also eliminates the perverse incentive to not attack with the full creature swarm.

Yes, Mold Adder is best when your opponent is playing spells, but you aren't necessarily losing to every resolved Ponder.  I'm not sure that "suboptimal" is an appropriate label, either.  A vanilla 3/3 for G might well be playable.  I realize he isn't one, but I remember arguments that Goyf is "just big" and doesn't disrupt the opponent and therefore not worthy of slots in Fish.

Mold Adder is useless past turn 1 and is tiny against anything but Tezz (because if combo casts more than 2 spells you'd better be losing) so why would it be playable over Hidden Herd/Gibbons/Guerrillas that essentially have the same restriction of only playable on turn 1 but are ALWAYS big? Goyf is good because hes always big without stupid restrictions.

[Implacable]

They fill the same position in the curve and thus compete for space in the deck. 

I lost you here.  Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf do compete for space in a Fish deck; they fill different roles.  Roles are, in fact, the issue in all of Magic: Steve calls them "interactions," which is a nice, action-y way of putting it.  So in one sense, sure, all cards compete for space, in that there are only 60 cards in a deck: but casting cost is a minor consideration in Type 1 compared to role, because everything is cheap, but not everything is good.  

Specifically, Mold Adder isn't good for the same reason that Hidden Gibbons isn't good: it's relatively easy to delay its becoming potent.  But more relevantly, Mold Adder isn't good because its role - to beat down - means it competes for spaces with Tarmogoyf, not Heirarch.  And I am not quite sure you want to argue that Mold Adder is superior to Tarmogoyf.

[AmbivalentDuck]

But casting cost *does* matter, nobody would even talk about Hierarch at 1G.  Both Hierarch and Adder compete with Stifle and Mox-assisted 2cc drops as your turn one play and both starkly lose utility if played later.

Adder is much harder to delay than Gibbons.  With Gibbons, they can still play sorcery speed tutors to hand-sculpt and play Duress/Thoughtseize to proactive remove the parts of your deck that actually interact.  The better comparison would be with Hidden Herd which will almost certainly stunt your opponent's development if played around.  Point is, you don't need to play around a 3/3, you just take the 6-12 damage and win around it.  Mold Adder can probably expect to become a 3/3 or 4/4 if not played around (until its P/T become irrelevent), I see that as a significant clock combined with our other proactive disruption.

And yes, it's possibly to talk about replacing Goyfs with Adders.  Mold Adder is an anti-Dryad.  In a 4 Gush meta, I'd strongly consider Adders.  Right now, Goyf is better since it does a better job of blocking robots.

[Guli]

The big problem is stated a couple of times. It does not necessarily grow the way you desire, it is still the opponent that will determine how big it will become. I don't know if it is even good enough to use in a sideboard vs tezz.

Also you really want to play it turn 1 and preferably on the play. All this sounds very situational to me. Another argument is that I don't want a 1 drop in the deck that becomes cumulatively weaker turn after turn as a topdeck.

There are a couple of 1 drops that are 3/3 (or more) out there. Wild Nacatl, Nimble Mongoose and FOD are examples.

Noble Hierarch is strong because it helps out in more than 2 match ups and archetypes. The mana is always good but especially versus wasteland or spheres. The exalted is key in aggro match (very nice with Aven Mindcensor/Tarmogoyf) but also gives that 1 extra damage when you swing with your first bear. Noble blocks ichorid and doesn't kill it, meaning they will not get extra tokens. The slot Noble H  takes can be replaced but not with something like Mold Adder

[Harlequin]

I have to concur with what others have said about hierrarch.  Hierrarch is the glue that holds this otherwise hodge-podge deck together.  I never board out hierrarch, much like I never board out my islands or fetches.  The deck is super mana tight, running only 20 mana free mana sources.  Gun to my head, if I had to cut hierrarch and leave the rest of the deck the same I would probably replace him with THREE mana sources (1 duel, 1 island, and the 4th waste) and like mystical tutor or ponder.   

If mold adder wants a spot he has to toe up against Tarmogoyf.  This thread is getting a bit enormous but if you read back I've gone on record as saying I wouldn't run Goyf if no one was running goyf.  I basically only run him as a reluctant answer to other goyfs.  At the end of the day Selkie is a reactive deck with many lines of play, that need to be open.  Goyf is just a cheap face crusher who often provides very few lines of play.  By the time I get around to casting goyf, the game is already over.

[Dirtyd]

First of all Hi everybody just wanted to give you the decklist i used in a 38 player tournement in Montreal this weekend.

I went 4-1-1 before top 8 losing to 1 tezz deck and beating TPS, tezzx2 and stax.then won the tournament beating in order, goblin,stax and tezz in the final.All this for winning an NM Ancestral Recall.Tournament was held on july 18th.

Land (17)

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Creatures (21)

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Meddling mage
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 tarmogoyf
2 Aven Mindcensor

Spells (9)

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
4 Stiffle
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze

Artifact (8)

4 Null Rod
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Saphire
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard

3 Children of korlis (against Dredge and tendrils)
3 Trygon Predator (stax)
3 Swords To Plowshares (aggro/mirror/stax)was very usefull!!
4 Wheel of Sun and Moon (dredge and strip lock)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[RecklessEmbermage]

Congratulations to Dirtyd!

Excuse me for necroing. It seemed more sensible than starting a new thread, since my list is just a twist on the Selkie-Strike deck developed by Stormanimagus and others here.

I'm fiddling with the idea of bringing this deck to a local tournament. It's a small (14-20p), non-proxy, budget meta with a healthy mix of aggro and combo and usually a control/lock-down deck or two. Could you help me making this list run decently?

I'll just post it and cover the non-obvious choices afterwards:

23 creatures:
4 noble hierarch
2 birds of paradise
4 qasali pridemage
4 meddling mage
4 cold-eyed selkie
2 augury adept
3 trygon predator

17 spells:
4 null rod
3 armadillo cloak
4 FoW
3 daze
2 disrupt
1 brainstorm

20 lands (14 green, 10 blue, 13 white):
2 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
1 tropical island
1 savannah
1 temple garden
3 horizon canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 city of brass
3 forest
3 island
1 plains
1 strip mine

SB:
4 swords to plowshares (non-inkwell, big guys and against aggro when null rod or other cards are dead)
2 disrupt (combo, removal)
3 wheel of sun and moon (crucible, ichorid)
2 dueling grounds (ichorid, goblins/other swarms)
3 children of korlis (tendrils, ichorid)
1 armageddon (in case someone brings urza-lands or something stupid)


If it was still viable, I'd make this deck GW for armageddons and knights of the reliquary and just stomp face like I used to back in the day. However, people are bringing turn two combos/locks that needs answering and GW just doesn't cut it anymore. I could go black for duress, but this deck really wants mana-accel turn one, and hence, a free counter is a better choice.

Budget: For the above list, I'll have to buy windswept heath, tropical island, noble hierarch, meddling mage and force of will. That is about what I can afford within a few month's time. By all means, suggest cards, but don't fault me for concerning about the overall pricetag on this.

Lack of power: There's no power in my meta, with yawgwin and manadrain being the only cards that really come close. We don't allow proxies and I, like anyone else, can't afford it. That means chalice for 0 isn't such a strong play. I still run null rods, since time vault, grinstone, top, mana-artifacts, jitte, clamp, vial etc. are all over the place. I still want to have 3 mana up turn two more often than not, though. Hence the manabirds. Should I play 3?

Armadillo cloak: I'm gonna have to face a variety of aggro decks and this archetype looks weak to dedicated aggro. Armadillo cloak is superb when racing and help selkie, adept and predator deal damage when the opponent has blockers out. I don't agree that pumping a selkie is "win-more". Drawing two or three card with it before it gets answered doesn't automatically spell a win, but drawing 4 or 5 while gaining that much life in the process very well may. I'm hoping the counterspells are enough to prevent two-for ones. I considered xantid swarm and sylvan safekeeper, but those would demand a set of ESG's and suddenly the deck becomes very dilluted.

Lack of stifles, goyfs, wastelands, manlands: I think my meta will move in a direction that makes stifle a decently consistent card, but we aren't there yet. Goyf is out of my price-range for one, and if it weren't I think I'd still want the utility creatures over it. They should hit for 3-4 a good deal of the time. I'd love including a set of wastes or factories, but that would demand a more stable overall manabase. I just can't afford that right now.

I think the deck would have wanted 6-7 selkies. Between mystic remora, heartwood storyteller, rhystic study, curiosity and draw-spells, augury adept is my initial choice. The pump and dueling grounds in the board should strengthen it when people have blockers. Goyf may show up, but is a rarity in my meta and creatures are generally bears or huge monsters.

It seems as though the permission suite is glued onto the deck forcefully. Fetching tropical turn one to be able to daze leaves me open to wasteland. Misdirection is too often dead in my meta, foil is too demanding when blue is really just a splash, FoW suffers a bit of the same problem. I landed on disrupt as counters 8-9, but they aren't exactly flexible..
How can I make the aggro- and permission elements mesh more finely?

This will have to beat unpowered versions of oath, stax, tinker and ichorid. Additionally: sui, rock, fish and a variety of tribal decks. I'm hoping burn will be a non-issue.

[Stormanimagus]

Sorry to Necro this thread, but it is the official thread on Selkie-Strike and I'd like some people's input on the deck. Specifically I'd like to know what people think about the following change to the list:

-3 Stifle
+3 Spell Pierce

For Reference, here is my most updated list of the deck before that change:

Selkie-Slam

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (20):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Trygon Predator

Instants (14):
4 Force Of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle (Would be changed to Spell Pierce)
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
3 Propaganda
2 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Swords To Plowshares

[smasher]

When I had this deck sleeved up to playtest against I found stifle to be really nice in manascrewing other fish/aggro decks. You are trading a card that helps in fish matchups for one that is for the most part worthless in that match. Stifle seems decent against almost everything and I don't know if spell pierce will end up being as versatile.

Stifle on bazaar so you can waste it next turn seems better than spell piercing a dread return since the saccing of guys to cast dread return will probably give them a horde of zombies already.
Stifle in tendrils matches seems better than spell pierce. Spell pierce still seems nice but not as good here.
They seem about equal in shop matches.

It's a tough call that needs to be play tested vs a variety of decks to see which one you get the most mileage out of. I'm leaning towards stifle without having tested yet.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Stifle in tendrils matches seems better than spell pierce. Spell pierce still seems nice but not as good here.

As a combo player, I disagree.  Spell Pierce actually counters their enabling bombs, such as Will, Necro, Bargain, Tinker, Twister, etc.  It can also counter Rituals and other mana to stop them from casting anything in the first place.  Stifle is not very relevant, since if the combo deck can resolve a bomb and go crazy, it is usually not that hard for them to Duress you before casting Tendrils.  The best use of Stifle against combo is actually against fetchlands, but as others have already noted, this is easily played around and doesn't work as often as you'd like.

They seem about equal in shop matches.

I disagree here also.  I would much rather counter Cow/Wire/Stack, than Stifle something.

I think it's clear that Spell Pierce is also stronger against Control and Oath, though it is certainly weaker in the mirror and against other aggro decks, and of course against Ichorid.

Stifle may be more versatile, but I think Spell Pierce is the stronger card overall.

[Stormanimagus]

So hey everyone. I'm super-psyched about Ravenous Trap for this deck as it gives it an answer to Ichorid that is actually effective and can be so even when not drawn in the opening 7. This deck has been given some marvelous new toys in that card and Spell Pierce and I'd like to propose a new and most awesome list with some explanations on the card choices:

Selkie—Slam

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (22):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Trygon Predator

Instants (12):
4 Force Of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Arcane Laboratory
4 Swords To Plowshares

Ok. So I've made some pretty significant changes. Let's go through them:

*4 Misty Rainforest + Forest = This change is pretty obvious. This deck wants basic forest against Shops/The Mirror so it can get a Noble Hierarch online through Wasteland. This helps to solidify the manabase even more IMO.

*-3 Stifle +3 Spell Pierce = Stifle seems to be less good these days and more easily played around. The main thing is I just think Spell Pierce is a better overall card to draw off the top-deck in the mid-late game even and this deck needs more cards like that. I think Stifle is close to Pierce's power in the late game and yes, there will be times when pierce is dead, but it will help more than it will hurt IMO.

*2 MD Mindbreak Trap + 2 SB = This is my best answer to an early Tinker/Yawg Will. Best one I can think of and pitchable to FoW. Sign me up!

EDIT: After a conversation with a solid Storm player who will remain anonymous *cough cough Markse* I have decided that Mindbreak Trap probably is not worth the slots in the MD OR SB right now. I feel it is a somewhat over-hyped card that may have applications in decks that need an effect like that but don't run blue, but I actually don't rank it terribly high on the "likely to warp the format" o-meter.

*3 SB Arcane Lab = I've decided to add these to my SB on his recommendation as they really are the best weapon around for combating TPS. They may also be applicable elsewhere , but I'm not sure they really warrant being brought in against Tezz when we already have such a good MD against them. These can also definitely come in against Gro variants and Drain Tendrils and Belcher.

*0 MD or SB Hurkyl's Recall = This might be a mistake in light of the fact that Tinker + Inkwell is still played pretty widely, but here's my thought on that. If you can pretty consistently stop a turn 1-3 Tinker with Counters like Pierce, Trap, FoW, Daze then you should be able to race an Inkwell that is resolved later than that off the top-deck (and getting under Trap because they top-decked it or tutored for it and it is only like their 1rst or 2nd spell of the turn) with Goyf or some sort of small army. If they are playing any other fatty you just bring in STP from the SB. Speaking of which:

*4 SB STP = I think this is a grossly underrated card that still has many applications across the board and I dropped 2 SB Jitte cause I think this card is just better at hitting the creatures this deck needs to JUST. . . KILL. KILL IT DEAD!

*2 SB Pithing Needle = I think this is the second best card to Ravenous Trap at stopping Ichorid that ISN'T black, but I could be wrong and am open to suggestions.

EDIT: I've elected to go to 2 Needle AND 2 Crypt with the extra SB space made from cutting Mindbreak Trap. Crypt is still a very efficient card for nuking the opponent's GY and doesn't mess with your curve at all nor does it screw with your Tarmogoyf like Relic does. It's only weakness is that it gets hosed by Chalice @0 but that doesn't seem like a common play from Ichorid decks right now and it has added uses against SCV and TPS. Overall it is solid and so. . .

*2 SB Tormod's Crypt = read above!

*4 SB Ravenous Trap = This card is just unreal good and is a gift like mana from heaven. Thank you Wizards R & D!

*3 Trygon Predator MD = This card still has many applications and can just plain win games. Too good to omit. Also has the nice effect of getting around Chalice @2 and then KILLING IT. KILLING IT DEAD!

I open it up now to discussion and debate,

Peace,

-Storm

[jester3397]

With no maindeck or board removal for Inkwell. Will this become an issue?
As an oathed Hellkite can easily ruin your day, this can also be an issue against Oath.

Will tariff be a sufficient answer?

[Stormanimagus]

With no maindeck or board removal for Inkwell. Will this become an issue?
As an oathed Hellkite can easily ruin your day, this can also be an issue against Oath.

Will tariff be a sufficient answer?

I'm really glad you brought up this point as I've given it considerable thought, but I do think I have an answer.

1. Inkwell Issue -->I used to run 2 MD Hurkyl's Recall for that very card, but I find it to be a dead card outside of that use and that is unacceptable. Also, you really have to ask yourself: Will Inky really be an issue? If they try to bust you with a turn 1-3 Tinker you should be able to counter it with 4 FoW, 4 Daze, and 3-4 Spell Pierce. Spell Pierce I think puts this deck over the top with a high density of early game counters that can stop early bustedness. Now IF you drop down some critters (say Pridemage + Goyf) and beat down in turns 1-4 for like 8-10 damage then a top-decked Tinker for Leviathan should easily be race-able. So, in conclusion:

Early Game Inky = one of 11-12 Turn 1 counters (depending on whether you're on the play or not. If you're on the draw then Turn 1 Tinker can only be answered by FoW I know) deals with Tinker.

Mid-Late Game Tinker --> Inky = Just freaking Race them!

That's my philosophy on Inky for now, and I'll have to see in play-testing whether it plays out that way.

2. Hellkite --> As for any other creature did you see my SB? I run 4 STP. Between Counters and STP I should have a decent shot against Oath. I realize that they have 3 Dragons in the Deck so I can't just STP all day long cause what are the chances I'll draw 3 of my 4 in time? But hey, it's better than nothing! Hopefully I can STP to buy myself time to get rid of Oath with Predator or Pridemage.

-Storm

[Stormanimagus]

I just made updates to my recent list that I think are pretty hot. I'd love some feedback!

-Storm

[mmcgeach]

I think I'd want mindbreak trap but not against storm.  Just against general turn-1 brokenness.  At least, I'll try testing it for that purpose.

[jester3397]

I see, so basically an early Tinker with protection would just be gg.

In our meta, which has a lot of fish, gw, parfait and other random aggro, Oath almost always gets Empyrial Archangel so stp won't do much. Its just me I guess I like having 2 tariff between the main and board.

Also, cutting Aven Mindcensor are you missing it in the deck or is it really just a weak disruption overall.

[Stormanimagus]

I see, so basically an early Tinker with protection would just be gg.

In our meta, which has a lot of fish, gw, parfait and other random aggro, Oath almost always gets Empyrial Archangel so stp won't do much. Its just me I guess I like having 2 tariff between the main and board.

Also, cutting Aven Mindcensor are you missing it in the deck or is it really just a weak disruption overall.

I'm not really missing Aven Mindcensor at all. I have found it to be losing a lot of power lately as decks like SCV and Fish become more popular. It also is an over-costed answer that many Vintage Adepts have acknowledged as overrated.

As to the "having an answer to Inkwell" debate. The whole idea is that you run as many early FoW as your opponent, but you also run 7-8 extra Turn 1 counters. If they have Turn 1 Tinker with FoW back-up on the PLAY against you then yes, you might have to say "too good." But you might have to say that even when you side in 2 Tariff as you still have to DRAW said Tariff in time to beat a 3 Turn clock and that is not a given.

I do have 1 alternative that I've been examining However. Cunning Wish. I'd really like to know if folks think that making room for 3-4 Cunning Wish is warranted and then running a Wish-board that might look something like this:

4 Ravenous Trap (You'd side in 3 of them against Ichorid and keep 1 to Wish for)
1 Hurkyl's Recall (Inky protection mainly)
1 Echoing Truth
4 Sword To Plowshares (Again, you'd probably side in 3 of these against Beatz/Fish and perhaps even Ichorid and Oath)
1 Mindbreak Trap (Protection from TPS etc.)

So That's 11 cards. Now you could round out your SB with any number of other cards, but do you guys think the idea of Cunning Wish + a Wish-board might actually be sound again?


-Storm

[BruiZar]

A few posts ago Mold Adder was discussed. If anyone is still considering Mold Adder, I would take a look at Cosi's Trickster as it pumps from fetch, demonic, vamp, imperial seal, tezzeret activation, merchant scroll, mystical tutor, timetwister and Crop Rotation.

[Stormanimagus]

The deck runs 1 Island for a reason, and that reason is wasteland.  Stripmine is much worse than wasteland because you can't defend against it by fetching island.  

IMO, there isn't anything much better than keeping stifle open for turn 1 or 2.  I'll delay dropping noble or even null rod if it mean I can stifle something.  Mainly -because- not all decks are blue, and not all decks run full mox.  I want to see what they are going to do on turn 1 and make my play accordingly.  Which most of the time is stifle if I have it.  I'll even bait with a non-basic on turn one to try and draw out a wasteland.  Infact I think one think ALL vintage decks have in common is that they generally all have something to stifle on turn 1.  Be it a fetch, a wasteland, a bazaar or something worse (like a nasty CITP, or a deadly storm/belcher activation).

If you don't think stifle is in the top-5 best cards in the deck, I'd venture a guess they you're not really playing it right.

So after some serious contemplation on this comment I've come to the conclusion that it's mainly correct and Stifle is too good to drop from a deck like this. I would really like to find a way to include 3-4 Stifle AND 3-4 Spell Pierce, however, because I really think Spell Pierce is going to help in the early game as a sort of pseudo mana-denial and it's just another thing the opponent has to worry about when you have U up in those critical first 3 turns.

So I put it to the community. How can I best streamline the deck to include 3 Spell Pierce but also have 3 Stifle. Currently I'm going with this config, but I'm not sure it's correct:

Selkie-Slam

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (19):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (15):
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rule Of Law
4 Swords To Plowshares


I'm a little worried about not running any Trygon Predators MD but I've found the Shop match-up to be very winnable without them because you have enough mana accel to power out dudes through spheres. Chalice @2 worries me a bit but hopefully you can find one of your 2 Trygons post SB. Not sure if I should find a way to put 1 in the MD just in case.

-Storm

[urweak]

*-3 Stifle +3 Spell Pierce = Stifle seems to be less good these days and more easily played around. The main thing is I just think Spell Pierce is a better overall card to draw off the top-deck in the mid-late game even and this deck needs more cards like that. I think Stifle is close to Pierce's power in the late game and yes, there will be times when pierce is dead, but it will help more than it will hurt IMO.

I think the Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage combo might become a factor, and keeping stifle will be a big playing vs that combo.

[dawgie]

I guess removing MD Trygon is fine. You still have Spell Pierces which helps a lot in slowing them down. Chalice for 2 is usually gg.

In our side of the world, not a lot of people use Stax. A lot more people use combo and more decks that require a lot of shuffling. So Aven Mindcensor is used more. I have taken it out though because I have started testing with Spell Pierce for this deck. I am so in love on how it protects your threats and how it helps in your counter wars. It makes your opponent think twice if they can use their spell.

[potato]

*-3 Stifle +3 Spell Pierce = Stifle seems to be less good these days and more easily played around. The main thing is I just think Spell Pierce is a better overall card to draw off the top-deck in the mid-late game even and this deck needs more cards like that. I think Stifle is close to Pierce's power in the late game and yes, there will be times when pierce is dead, but it will help more than it will hurt IMO.

I think the Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage combo might become a factor, and keeping stifle will be a big playing vs that combo.

For what it's worth, you already have a variety of solutions for Dark Depths, such as wasteland and just countering their guy.

[Stormanimagus]

I guess removing MD Trygon is fine. You still have Spell Pierces which helps a lot in slowing them down. Chalice for 2 is usually gg.

In our side of the world, not a lot of people use Stax. A lot more people use combo and more decks that require a lot of shuffling. So Aven Mindcensor is used more. I have taken it out though because I have started testing with Spell Pierce for this deck. I am so in love on how it protects your threats and how it helps in your counter wars. It makes your opponent think twice if they can use their spell.

Yeah, removing Trygons from the MD is painful and may, ultimately, be wrong, but I just don't see them as necessary ATM. Only time will tell though.

As to 0 Hurkyl's Recall between the MD and SB: I know no one has commented on it, but I'd like some thoughts. My reasoning behind this is that STP hits every relevant creature outside of Inky post SB and is your out to Tinker. Here are the commonly played Tinker Targets that STP hits:

DSC
Sundering Titan
Platinum Angel
Sphinx Of The Steel Wind

If they are playing Inky you either have to:

a) Counter the Tinker with Daze/Pierce/FoW in the early game

or,

b) Make sure that if it's Turn 4 or later and you are both in Top deck mode that you've dealt them some damage via exalted dudes and such. Think about the math this way.

If you are at 17 from fetches + FoW that is still a 3 turn clock for Inky. If they are at say, 14 from Fetches + FoW + beatz (pretty reasonable with the exalted mechanic) and it is now turn 4 (they were on the play so you've only had 3 turns) what's likely to have happened? Well,

1. You've probably reduced them to 14 life by going:

Turn 1: Noble
Turn 2: Bear + 1 damage by swinging with Noble
Turn 3: Attack with exalted bear for 3 damage. Play Goyf (with protection).

that's 4 damage. Add 2 from fetches and the like and they are at 14. Now suppose they resolve Tinker --> Inky on their turn 4 after depleting your counters. It now passes back to you. You hold up a 4/5 goyf (Land, Instant, Sorcery and perhaps artifact from them) and a 2/2 bear. It goes to their turn. They attack for 7 bringing you to 10.

On your turn you swing for 6 and play another bear bringing them to 8.

They attack you for another 7 bringing you to 3

On your turn you swing for 8 and the wing with 4/5 goyf + 2 bears.

This whole scenario does not seem far-fetched at all. Inky really shouldn't be that big a problem if you have a lot of protection from early Tinker. For other Tinker Targets you have STP in the SB.

-Storm