[Discussion] Goblins

[TheJesus]

Does this look completely crazy? The idea kinda appeals to me:

"One-dimentional goblin deck"
...

I was thinking about Prospector and War Marshal. He gets you +1 R if Skirk is in play. This doesn't cast black spells, but it's still a mana also he is very good with Therapy and Bitter Ordeal. Goblin Guide is another consideration at 1cc letting you see the draw for Therapy. I don't really know about SSG, but he's probably better than more fetch lands. Phyrexian Tower enables 2nd turn prowl off any attacker. So what about this:

25 creatures
4 Lackey
4 Prospector
2 Mogg War Marshall
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Matron
4 Earwig Squad
3 Mogg Fanatic

11 Spells:
4 Therapy
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Bitter Ordeal
1 Warren Weirding
1 Demonic Consultation

24 Mana:
3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Phyrexian Tower (T: 1. T, sac a creature: BB)
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


Sideboard:
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Seal of Primordium
3 sharpshooter
4 Vexing Shusher

Some other Rogues that prowl:

Nightshade Stinger  B
Creature — Faerie Rogue (1/1)
Flying
Nightshade Stinger can't block.

Orcish Spy  R
Creature — Orc Rogue (1/1)
Tap: Look at the top three cards of target player's library.

Perhaps with the Therapies and shuffle effects?

Merrow Bonegnawer  B
Creature — Merfolk Rogue (1/1)
Tap: Target player exiles a card from his or her graveyard.
Whenever you cast a black spell, you may untap Merrow Bonegnawer.

or

Rag Dealer  B
Creature — Human Rogue (1/1)
2B, Tap: Exile up to three target cards from a single graveyard.

or

Nezumi Graverobber  1B
Creature — Rat Rogue (2/1)
1B: Exile target card from an opponent's graveyard. If no cards are in that graveyard, flip Nezumi Graverobber.

For Graveyard hate

also, this guy is a rogue

Nezumi Shortfang  1B
Creature — Rat Rogue (1/1)
1B, Tap: Target opponent discards a card. Then if that player has no cards in hand, flip Nezumi Shortfang.

Hey this dude would be awesome against that wall deck:
Ali Baba  R
Creature — Human Rogue (1/1)
R: Tap target Wall.

[itslarrysilly]

Hey this dude would be awesome against that wall deck:
Ali Baba  R
Creature — Human Rogue (1/1)
R: Tap target Wall.

.....seriously? I don't think trying to fit a bunch of rogues into a goblin deck would do anything to help it in the current meta. I mean I guess if wall.dec is smashing face that works but iunno.

I'm using ambivalentducks deck as a platform, what would people recommend as replacments for the power (which I don't currently own)
 I was thinking of going
+3nullrods
+1 ssg
+1mountain
-3mox
-black lotus
-1crypt
This would allow me some more free slots in my sb to work on.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Show me results beyond winning a 4-man tournament against counter-wall.dec. The majority of Goblins list I see in ANY meta feature Taigas, or a combination of Taiga and Badlands.

Max's results and the Scrubbing Bubbles results.  Neither ran a Taiga, both top8-ed at large tourneys.  The gobs list that won the large tourney in Europe was mono-red with no fetches, just basic mountains.

The best interpretation of objectively "bad" builds doing well is that goblins is vastly under-tested by most teams and vastly underplayed.

[Ozymandias]

What mono-red list is that? I don't see it on deckcheck or morphling.

[AmbivalentDuck]

What mono-red list is that? I don't see it on deckcheck or morphling.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38309.msg533080#msg533080

[policehq]

What mono-red list is that? I don't see it on deckcheck or morphling.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38309.msg533080#msg533080

Well, given, I meant if any dual land was used, it was Taiga. You're still not making much of an argument for cute prowl tricks that are likely to be irrelevant in a lot of matches and certainly not for terrible terrible cards like Frogtosser.

Though I still think since June the addition of green for enchantment hate has become more necessary.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Why would you run green for a reactive answer when you can KILL them by taking Vault and Iona with Bitter Ordeal?  If it's Vroman Oath and they've boarded in Nullstone Gargoyle, I'll happily race the 4/5 that shuts down my opponent's ability to play spells.

As far as "making an argument for cute prowl tricks," the burden is on YOU to show that the undercosted juggernaut and jester's cap in the same spell is somehow unsuitable for vintage play.

It'd be no different than suggesting Ur Tez then accusing me of "making an argument for cute Yawg Will tricks likely to be irrelevant in a lot of matches and certainly not for terrible terrible cards like Mox Jet."  The case for black in each deck is the same, except that Earwig actually wins the game when it resolves while Will just makes a win VERY likely.  Also, play with Frogtosser IN MY BUILD and then tell me you want to cut it.  In particular, try out the BR stax matchup.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Went 3-3 at today's sapphire tourney at Xtreme games barely missing top8.

List:
1 Strip
4 Waste
4 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring


4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Vandal
2 Mogg Fanatic
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Vexing Shusher
4 Goblin Matron
4 Earwig Squad
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
3 Warren Weirding

Sideboard:
1 Warren Weirding
1 Energy Flux
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Null Rod
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Shattering Spree
3 Bitter Ordeal


I won 2 matchups vs "fish" (both BUG) and 1 against Painter's Stone, lost vs TPS, mana bloodghast dredge, and GW reliquary fish.

Verdict: sideboard vs non-aggro was trash.  The GW reliquary fish loss barely happened since everything came together for him following an insane (and uncommon) opening.  TPS is unwinnable with Mindbreak, even with Shusher to make them hard counters.  Ordeal was trash there.  2x Ravenous Trap got there one game vs Dredge.  Issue was that we were underboarded since we basically auto-win against previous dredge builds. 

Wort is awesome and should always be played, Shusher was clutch against Painter's (which ran drains/fow/etc and could combo out).  Blue splash was solid, as expected, with Ancestral almost always resolving following baiting with Lackey/etc.  Everyone who saw me playing agreed that this gobo build is very playable.

[BruiZar]

i would really run kikijiki as a one off.

What is your opinion on piledriver? I think he's not that good anymore cause he doesnt help disrupt.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Kiki-Jiki is almost strictly win-more and much harder to get into play than Wort.  Some legacy builds run him, but not many.

Piledriver was tolerable all day.  Time Walk makes him mildly better, the loss of Chieftain makes him mildly worse.  You could cut him for disruption main...but you never know game 1 what kind of disruption you need.  So it's generally better to run generic disruption and just race.  If Bazaar Trader is "x/1, landfall - Draw 2, Discard 3" then obviously piledriver is out for the awesome draw engine.  I can't recall an instance at the tourney where piledriver was significantly different from a 3/2.

[BruiZar]

I prefer to run kiki jiki because I also play with goblin settler to achieve a strip lock. The build I am currently tinkering with has SSG's and instigators but i'm not sure if they should make the cut. The ability to go attack -> matron -> kiki jiki -> copy matron -> other goblin card or go attack -> matron -> settler follow up with wasteland is pretty good. That said, Wort must stay in the build because of its awesome interaction with warren weirding.

[BruiZar]

Not quiet what you hoped, what could we do with this Goblin?

Bazaar Trader 

Creature - Goblin   
T: Target player gains control of target artifact, creature or land that you control.
Illus. Matt Cavotta #72/145   1/1

[Joblin Velder]

OMFG Abyssal Persecutor! COMBOOOO!

[AmbivalentDuck]

"Donate" Sorrow's Path and tap it every turn with Rishadan Port?

There are a ton of enchantments that would doom your opponent (and say nice things like "Skip your draw step"...Dragon Appeasement would be an awesome card to "Donate"), but the best artifacts sadly appear to be Steel Golem and Immortal Coil.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Relevant new addition:

Slavering Nulls 1
Creature - Goblin Zombie
Whenever Slavering Nulls deals combat damage to a player, if you control a Swamp, you may have that player discard a card.
2/1

Repeating card advantage on a 2/1 body that enables prowl plays.  Yes, please.  Good enough?  Maybe.

Analysis:
Keeper/Tez/Oath
-This is trash against decks that run Will since they'll eventually hit topdeck tutor -> will -> gg.

Stax
-Stax plays pretty much everything it draws, and you'd rather be attacking with vandal/lackey.  That said, arguably better than Piledriver in this matchup.

Ichorid
-It's an enabler for them.  Only advantage over Piledriver is that it has a smaller but so you can Sharpshooter it on a whim and it can block/kill zombie tokens.

Fish
-Relevant since it produces CA.  Issues with lack of pro-blue which suddenly matters.  (Ie. Sower can take it)

Verdict:
Not worth a slot unless we start running maindeck grave removal.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Goblins with Squads, Instigators, and Simian Spirit Guides top8s.

 1   Robbie Connolly - Roblins

And wins here.

I'll start collecting links to all Gobs top8s in the opening post.

[BruiZar]

Very proud to see my sweet Goblin Settler / Kiki Jiki tech hit top 8. This list is pretty much what I have sleeved here including instigators and ssg's. (i play with more weirdings though). Congratulations Joe Tanner! I hope you can keep winning with goblins!

Instigator is really awesome with Goblin Matron because you can either set up Kiki Jiki and Matron again or put whichever goblin you like into play. I'm just a bit surprised the list doesn't have a singleton Wort.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm increasingly starting to think that anything with Lackeys and Vandals and some additional removal can top8., which would make Goblins ridiculously underplayed and undertested.

Settler has zero utility until you start talking about Instigator -> Matron -> Kiki, copy Matron finding Settler, one-sided Armageddon next turn.  But that's asking Instigator to hit twice without getting blocked, drained, or kept off the board with Spheres.  Also, replacing Settler with Lightning Crafter gives you the infinite damage combo if either prospector or sharpshooter is in play.

Anyways, even though our builds vary widely, the most successful builds tend to run Earwigs, some number of Warren Weirding, and artifact removal.  All winning builds run Waste-Strip, Lackeys, and Matrons.

[BruiZar]

I see Settler fit the same sort of role as I see Lodestone Golem. Its a way to timewalk an extra attack phase by putting them off their mana with the possibility of striplocking entirely through Kiki-Jiki. With Null Rod and Wastelands, it plays a lot like a workshop aggro deck running strips & spheres. Actually, there are more equivalents to Workshop decks because earwig has the ability of jester's cap and the power of juggernaut. In fact, you could play Thorn of Amethyst in this build.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I agree that in order to make Instigator work, you want your opponent doing as little as possible.  A deck running Instigator and SSGs probably wants 4 Thorn, 4 Null Rod main.  Though, you're now amazingly reliant on the little guy connecting.  You definitely want Jittes in the sb to take advantage advantage of the double strike and make the aggro mirror (*shudder* and gobs mirror!) winnable.

I see the Instigator "version" as much more fragile than others.  I'd also strongly consider legacy tech (like Mad Auntie) main to help you survive both removal and combat.

[zeus-online]

Relevant new addition:

Slavering Nulls 1
Creature - Goblin Zombie
Whenever Slavering Nulls deals combat damage to a player, if you control a Swamp, you may have that player discard a card.
2/1

Repeating card advantage on a 2/1 body that enables prowl plays.  Yes, please.  Good enough?  Maybe.

Analysis:
Keeper/Tez/Oath
-This is trash against decks that run Will since they'll eventually hit topdeck tutor -> will -> gg.

Stax
-Stax plays pretty much everything it draws, and you'd rather be attacking with vandal/lackey.  That said, arguably better than Piledriver in this matchup.

Ichorid
-It's an enabler for them.  Only advantage over Piledriver is that it has a smaller but so you can Sharpshooter it on a whim and it can block/kill zombie tokens.

Fish
-Relevant since it produces CA.  Issues with lack of pro-blue which suddenly matters.  (Ie. Sower can take it)

Verdict:
Not worth a slot unless we start running maindeck grave removal.

Hmm...I think some parts of your analysis is just waay off:
So...this guy is crap against will decks because he makes them discard? That's not a very compelling argument since discard (albeit more specialized) is very strong against drain decks....Also the blue version of this guy is played in merfolk decks. This guy hits one of the most relevant resources (cards in hand) repeatedly.
He's like half of dimir cutpurse which is definetly playable (although currently unplayed). I don't see how making them discard is somehow a drawback? I'd consider it quite a boon since it's definetly disrupting them. Against combo he atleast cuts down their resources, making it harder for them to combo out. All in all attacking resources repeatedly is not "bad" even if they're running a card that can potentially get it back.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Um, legacy doesn't have any effects akin to Will.  I've never seen a vintage Merfolk build other than the original Fish.

The point I'm making about Will is that you're unlikely to rob your opponent of lines of play with their-choice discard.  Remember, the card it would replace is Piledriver.

[honestabe]

I played against this deck the other day vs "MonoMax" on MWS.  It stared strong, but stalled later on, and I eventually won. (playing the standard Tezz deck) it didn't go to g2, because he quit after I took the 1st game.

Since you're already black, could you just splash for confidants?  Seems like he'd keep you from stalling late game.  If you don't want to play any non-gobblin creatures, maybe run a nights whisper or two.  Seems like it would help.  (and yes, he resolved a matron against me)

[AmbivalentDuck]

maybe run a nights whisper or two.  Seems like it would help.

If we go in that direction, Ringleader and Skullclamp seem like the best options.

Also, Max just top8-ed a 70-man tourney in Quebec.  He was 4-0-2 after 6 rounds of Swiss, losing to Ugo Rivard in the top8.  That's his story to tell though.

Our current decklist:

// Lands
    1 Mountain
    4 Badlands
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Arid Mesa
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Vandal
    2 Mogg Fanatic
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    3 Vexing Shusher
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Earwig Squad
    1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Time Walk
    3 Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 2 Energy Flux
SB: 4 Lightning Bolt
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Bitter Ordeal

[AmbivalentDuck]

Max and I were playing around trying to see how fast a modern rebuild of Food Chain Goblins could combo out.  The answer is about turn 3, and you don't actually want Food Chain: Instigator has totally replaced it.  The experiment was to see if ANY goblins build could race TPS.  The answer is no.  Instead, we found that Thorn of Amethyst was all-important and that Recruiter is actually very playable just to force Tez to counter an endless stream of Earwigs.

Decklist:
4 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

2 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Warren Instigator
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Skirk Prospector
2 Lightning Crafter

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Time Walk
4 Thorn of Amethyst

The "grand strategy" is that you dump Kiki-Jiki into play, copy whatever found him with his tap ability, then find Lightning Crafter.  Crafter + Kiki + Skirk is an infi-damage combo.  So, no reason to bother with Haste or Piledrivers.

I don't recommend that anyone actually play this, it's just a cute thought experiment that you *could* play in an aggro-heavy meta.

[TheGoon]

I recently put some  to my Gobbos.
works really great.
Tested mainly against Stax and Aggro.
but I'm not shure about all the cardchoices.(Dark Ritual, Vandal...)
i would love to get some help from you
also not that sure about the Sideboard...
(sorry for my not full sentences and bad english)

Lands[14]:
2 Pouted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolorian Academy

Mana Artifacts[7]:
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerals
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Saphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

Artifacts[4]:
1 Senseis Divining Top
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault

Creatures[17]:
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Vandal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

Instant/Sorcery:
4 Fow
3 Daze
1 Timewalk
1 Tinker
1 Ancestrall Recall
1 Brainstorm

2 Warren Weirding
2 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation

[AmbivalentDuck]

i would love to get some help from you

If you want to use the Tinker angle, you really want the full tutor suite (Vampiric, Demonic, Mystical, Merchant Scroll).  Now, you're stuck defending two positions: 1) not just using Meandeck's Tez list.  (They're a bunch of solid players who've put massive amounts of time into testing and tweaking...)  2) Taking focus away from the Goblin tribe and yet paradoxically running cards like Chieftain.

Either way, I think you really want to start a new thread in the improvement forum discussing UB rogues.  Bitterblossom is far better than Frogtosser in the sort of deck you appear to be building.

[Monomax]

Essentially, you lack focus.

Everytime we debate a card me and duck, we always ask each other if we are going to far from the main focus of the deck.

A) Jester's Cap
B) Aggro' With The Gobbo


Just putting quick combo like  Key-Vault will put away the main focus of your deck.

If you wanna be aggro, we think that the best number of creature is around 27. Work around that and youll always be aggro. Then you have to choose how to slow down your opponent. The  Kikki-Settler combo can be a good way to do so to. We only choose earwig because he can be a wincon by himself and we thinkg that RBU goblin is more versatile with all the SB option and broken vintage card.

If you wanna run counterspell suit, I suggest you look into a merfolk-fish deck.

EDIT : I herd that merfolk is a under-worked archetype.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Top8-ed at Xtreme games tonight.  Lost to stax in the top8 after beating it twice (including a list identical to the one that beat me) in Swiss.

Current list:

Mana
4 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa

1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

Creatures
4 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Vandal
2 Mogg Fanatic
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Ringleader

Spells
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Warren Weirding

Sideboard
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pulverize
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Energy Flux
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Null Rod
2 Thorn of Amethyst

[RecklessEmbermage]

Hi guys! I've been away for awhile, but the game sucked me in again.

I really like the direction goblins have taken lately. One major change I think we'll see is people dropping frogtosser banneret and warchief completely to rely more heavily on the lackeys.

I had this crazy idea and can't sleep until I get it jotted down:

I was wandering how I could make the match-up against pox (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27681) favorable and after deciding that blood moon and leyline of the void were too ineffective and bottled cloister too expensive, I landed on good old aether vial. Then I searched through goblins at 3-5 mana that could deal with tombstalker (hoping to find a reliable goblin assassin or something like that) and stumbled upon sensation gorger.

Ok, I've seen the card before, but disregarded it as funny, yet janky. It deserves another look though. With 12 ways of cheating goblins into play, goblin recruiter into sensation gorger could get out of hand quickly. Would you be so kind as to take a look at a very, very greedy deck and tell me what you think?


4 aether vial
4 chrome mox

4 goblin lackey
4 skirk prospector
4 goblin recruiter
4 warren instigator
2 goblin matron
2 sensation gorger
1 goblin chieftain
2 goblin ringleader
1 lightning crafter
1 kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
4 earwig squad

4 cabal therapy
1 vampiric tutor
1 warren weirding

4 simian spirit guide
4 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
4 badlands
1 mountain
1 swamp

Sideboard:
3 duress
1 strip mine
2 wasteland
3 goblin vandal
1 goblin king
3 warren weirding
1 stingscourger
1 shallow grave

I drew a few opening hands (will this post be deleted if I link to this card-selling site where you can view deck stats?) and it seemed surprisingly stable. It needs to be mulliganed quite aggressively, but mulligans fairly well.

The strips in the side may have to become basic lands and there's an obvious lack of evasion (blood moon and king is a possible solution). And the list is generally quite rough, of course.

EDIT: Congratulations with your top eight mister Duck!