Let me guess, now you'll argue decks aren't the format. You're right, this thread is awesome, but for all the wrong reasons.

Hey guys, what about just reading what was actually good in the past instead of making up really bad 'new versions' of decks that already got rebuilt 7,000 times in the past?

Lands + Sharpie = DING!

What the does that even mean?

There are some garbage parts and then there are some rich nice parts. Although I do agree it looks a bit out of place when you compare it to Berkley or SF.

Regardless of what you believe, it's right there on the card.

Ninja edit: And yes, at one point there were rules in place where you would still be 'alive' at 0 life for a short period of time.

Rootwater Thief {1U}
Creature -- Merfolk Rogue
U: Rootwater Thief gains flying until end of turn. / Whenever Rootwater Thief deals combat damage to a player, you may pay 2. If you do, search that player's library for a card and exile it, then the player shuffles his or her library.
1/2

Just saying. Certainly not the exact same, but this guy has a very similar effect and sure hasn't resurrected Fish.

By 3, you mean 70ish. SCG sold out of preorders of this card at 15 yesterday and are now doing a limited supply at 20. This card not only has a huge casual draw, but could be absolutely absurd in Standard.

Now see guys, this is a card to actually be excited about. Fits right into an established deck, has clear benefits and those benefits are of high enough quality to actually help a deck. He's what Juggernaut always hoped to be after power creep happened.

stop image dumping 4chan and get some ms paint doodles in here.

was good meeting the guy. He's nuts, but fun.

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4 mana isn't that expensive

In the current Vintage metagame, anything beyond 2 mana, at sorcery speed needs to win the game.  Now, there is a notable exception for workshop decks, or other decks that "cheat" cards into play, but mana drain is the closest thing to "cheating" Jace into play.  Take a look at the a current Top 8's and here's what you'll see at more than 2 mana sorcery speed -

Things that win - Tinker targets (including Jar), Tezzeret, Tendrils, Cold-Eyed Selkie and Knight of the Relinquary
Yawgmoth's Bargain - draws a lot more cards than Jace
Necropotence - draws a lot more cards than Jace
Mind's Desire - usually wins the game on the spot
Grim Tutor - This would be unplayable if it were 4 mana

Out of the above cards, the only ones that cost 4 or more are ones that actually win. 

Sower of Temptation - This is the only counterpoint I can see.  They both cost the same, but I maintain that Sower leads to winning games, where Jace lead to losing games due to the opening he creates. 
 
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Fact and Gifts are worse than this card.

Brainstorm reduced to Sorcery Speed isn't that good. Think about all the times Brainstorm was used to react to an opponent's line of play rather than setting up your next turn. The ability to continually draw / look at your top three is considerably less amazing if you don't hit a Fetchland to help control the quality of your draws. FOF is a bit oudated nowadays because it's four mana. Gifts Ungiven is restricted for a reason - It wins games. 

If you have the time and ability to play a 4cc sorcery speed spell to set up a win, then you had already won before you even cast it.

Man, what world are you people living in? Four mana was expensive back when Keeper was good, let alone a decade later with all the advancements we've made in deck building and the increase in power level.


Oh, now I get it. You're just making shit up now to try and justify it. Here, I'll help you out. Brainstorm reduced to Sorcery Speed isn't that good. If you want to know why it isn't good, think about all the times Brainstorm was used to react to an opponent's line of play rather than simply setting up your next turn. When four BS were legal, we did this a lot. In addition, the ability to continually draw / look at your top three is considerably less amazing if you don't hit a Fetchland to help control the quality of your draws. FOF is a bit oudated nowadays for one reason... Because it's four mana. Gifts Ungiven is only overrated in your own mind, so using that as some sort of case against it seems ridiculous.

And you know what respectable control deck will lose once this card drops? The one that just tapped down to play a four mana sorcery that didn't win the game. If you have the time and ability to play some big sorcery speed spell to set up a win, guess what? You had already won before you even cast that! Congratulations!

Four mana and doesn't win the game or even put you in a direct position to win the game. Unplayable in Vintage.

People will try though, they always do.

Well you know, other than the fact that it may be the worst Final Fantasy (I'm not even counting fucking X-2 or whatever that shit was), it was totally awesome. All of the emo story-telling, one dimensional characters, horrible combat, grindy grind grind-quests and complete lack of plot for the final quarter of the game make for an epic experience for sure.

To this day, FF8 is the only one I haven't bothered finishing.

Anyway, FF6, Chrono Trigger and Super Mario RPG (since fun game is fun) are my tops. Can't stand Fallout anymore even though I loved it when I first played it and I don't count FF Tactics, Front Mission 3 or Disgaea as RPG's so sadly that eliminates all the games I've played the longest.

Why to play a Metagame deck in general: Because your too stupid to play Affinity.

Why to play a Metagame deck for major tournaments: Because you feel like gambling with the pairing gods.

Why to play a Metagame deck (secret reason): Because you don't actually care about winning

this has been gone over before. If there's an optional way to stop the loop at some point, you make that move or risk being called for stalling. If you can go 'infinite' you still need to set a certain amount of repetitions unless it's an unbounded loop (see: dragon combo w/o any other creatures in grave). You are only trapped in a loop if there are no optional actions to be made. Otherwise you eventually have to give the opponent back his turn or you can be called for stalling if the other player calls a judge.

It's the equivalent of untapping Seeker of Skybreak a billion times.

Now you can certainly OFFER the draw, but the opponent doesn't have to accept it.

It isn't. 2nd print run won't be out for almost another month.

Methinks control is a rather awkward strategic misnomer to call a deck full of Goblins.

Three things.
1. Why would you ever worry about Stax with that many MD and SB cards when the match is a bye barring a god draw?
2. How do you justify running that many crappy accelerant creatures but not Aether Vial?
3. Sorta lost on the point of Jitte. Again, lost on how Fish is a hard match for Gobs at all?

ninja edit: fourth thing, why even play goblins when you cut all the best ones?

I also failed to spot any Tarpan, an obvious error as I remember being in the sideboards of successful Vintage decks by MEEEEEEAAAAAAANNNNNNDECK.

You vastly overrate the amount of knowledge it takes to understand a Fish deck. Dudes + Counters has never been a particularly difficult strategy to figure out. Neither has a simple mana accelerant.

Actually the quoted feels ironic in light of what you wrote earlier.


No definition of Fish ever had this as the main point and in fact I can't remember a single aggro-control deck in the history of the game, with possibly the sole exception of older Necropotence decks, where this was true. The only recent deck I can think where this might be true is Standard Faeries w/ Ancestral Visions when it was legal, but even that focused more on tempo than CA. I remember plenty of control decks that had this as their philosophy though.

Someone math-ed the bolded out to be like 0.8-0.10 cents if thought about rationally. Of course that's a laughable disclaimer. In real-world terms, dealers all bumped boxes by 10-15 dollars after hearing the news. So something like 27 cents a pack bump.

Even without this promotion the set was going to sell out everywhere, this just took the hype to a fever pitch. Like it's making a lot of dealers do stupid things (like cancel preorders), but the price gouging was going to happen anyway. I'm not joking when I say if you have the extra cash lying around, buy a box at 110 or 120. You'll be able to resell it sealed for 150 or more in 2 weeks.

Phyrexian Dreadnought, Time Vault, Cradle, etc. have all been confirmed in different PR's. All the P9 has been confirmed with the exception of Timetwister.

First the cards for Vintage aren't on Magic Online. Some are like Force of Will, Bazaar of Baghdad, Duals and others, but the power nine and other staples are not. Magic Online's version of Vintage is called Classic.
http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/mtgo-metagame-breakdown-2-2/

That article would give you an idea of what people generally play in the format.

Yes, you have to buy cards to play on Magic Online. No, there's no way to test for free.

Ebay & locally I can get trade around for that much. If forced to buy from a dealer locally, I could probably get you a set around 40 (stupid 2 dollar surcharge per hierarch). Right now the price has slowly been sliding back up in preparation for the rotation since Hierarch was actually usable in a number of ALA block decks.

Sorry, I wasn't clear there. Let me restate. I think more people are getting mad because more mythics are playable and are likely to cost more than previous ones. More in the Elspeth / Baneslayer (25-35) range than the more reasonable Time Warp (8-10) range. Just a note though, yes the PW's are reprints and so is DSC, Plats and Time Warp so...

In large part though, I'm talking about Standard though. That'll set the base price for the most popular Mythics, whatever the Standard players are going to pay.


I'd be really surprised if Instigator stayed above 10 once the hype dies down. I would think it to be a 10 dollar card for most of it's life-span unless Gobs became the DTB in standard or Extended. In playability levels it's only worth like 5-7, but I'm sure casual players and people who just read 'lackey ability' on it will keep the price raised.

Lotus Cobra is more interesting. It definitely could be a 20-25 dollar card, it has that level of power and does something that can't be reasonably imitated by something cheaper. The price will likely be around 20-25 at first and then drop based on playability. Sort of how Noble Hierarch was 15 bucks and then dropped to around 7-8 after a few months and the hype died down. We could see Cobra start at 25 and drop to 12-15 if it's only good in some random Bant or Ramp deck for Standard.

To be fair, it does something that hasn't really been done before with it's type of mana production (like, actually I'm curious how many other cards make mana just when lands come into play) and it doesn't even fit in most decks.

I have more of an issue with Mindbreak Trap being Mythic than this guy. In general I'm finding people are just getting worked up because the # playable mythics went up with this set.

Yes, let's unrestrict a colorless Dark Ritual when there's so many wonderful artifacts and Planeswalkers to cast while the best kill condition in Vintage costs 4 colorless mana.

I own no power and never will.

US player, northern California